Um, exactly what kind of weaponry did we use in the “war in heaven?” Did you hold a sword? Did I have an axe? Did Jesus ride a nucular (purposefully misspelled) bomb waving his hat singing “yippie kayay mother sataners!”

#2 You can sit in the peanut gallery and try and tell me I should die instead of the enemies the elected civilian leadership of the United States has designated and you can say your freedom here in the united states to practice religion, pacifism, politics without batting an eye unlike many other countries in the world comes directly from God to you without the blood of any American fighting men and you can say you don’t agree with the politics of any of our wars and you can say I don’t want to fight anymore but knowing in the back of your mind you need somebody to be willing to do it and you can look down on this low class white guy from Tennessee as just a gentile doing your dirty work and i’ll never tell anyone what they should think of me or not but if you want to complain about a simple memorial remembering the blood my brothers shed in military service for this country then you can meet me at the Ogden VFW hall tell me that and count how many teeth you have left afterwards.

“Good people sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.”

That’s because J. Reuben Clark really did not like Democrats, quipping upon hearing of FDR’s death, that God finally did what American voters could not do: get FDR out of office. He was a firm believer in the Skousen conspiracy of Democrats being secret communists bent on destroying America. Add to all of that a Democrat launching TWO nuclear bombs on civilian targets. Boy, that’s just too much for him to take.

This is J. Reuben Clark of the First Presidency speaking in general conference just after World War II:

“As the crowning savagery of the war, we Americans wiped out hundreds of thousands of civilian population with the atom bomb in Japan, few if any of the ordinary civilians being any more responsible for the war than were we …. Military men are now saying that the atom bomb was a mistake. It was more than that; it was a world tragedy …. And the worst of this atomic bomb tragedy is not that not only did the people of the United States not rise up in protest against this savagery, not only did it not shock us to read of this wholesale destruction of men, women, and children, and cripples, but that it actually drew from the nation at large a general approval of this fiendish butchery.”

Mind explaining your belief in how the Church is in favor or not of particular wars?

bfwebster #11 – was right on target, as well as Mandi in #14 and #18.

Dan and RonM – You both appear to be frothing at the mouth with your anti-war stance to such a degree that you fail to see [by reading LDS official statements mentioned in #9], that the LDS Church is not in favor of war for the reasons, you both have indicated here.

Personally, I’m a Vietnam veteran [USMC 1968] and I support the U.S. in all it’s wars and conflicts since WW 11. I am diametrically opposed to both of you. Perhaps that may be due to a different type of involvement I’ve had with the U.S. over the years. I know that I have good evidence to back up my position. But so what. We all could argue and debate over this thing and that one until we have 500+ comments here.

Let us deal with the preamble of this post. As stated in #9 – [and there's alot of reading to do there], the LDS Church is more peacefull than many have indicated. I was really surprised when the Church turned down ‘the offer’ to place missles in the middle of Utah in the mid-seventies, as brought up by bfwebster in #11. But they did it and were successfull.

Although, I support our involvement with Iraq and the Middle East – for I believe, that after 9/11, that the U.S. believes it is the master of it’s own destiny and all of this involvement comes under ‘The war on Terror’, nonetheless, I felt the need to be closer to the LDS Church instead of being involved with the war. Some of you may be aware that this type of war can be fought on many fronts and can and will take up alot of time. Time that could be spent working in the Church. The Church that will survive any conflict. For all governments will fall before the second coming.

I see your point and no it never is that simple as you point out. I have wrestled with this issue for years (although doing so does not mean I am any more correct—maybe more entrenched) and have come to believe that Christianity or the words of Christ truly are radical and yet paradoxically the only pragmatic way out. I think it is honorable and just to engage in “just wars” and also to engage in self-defense–real self defense and not the make believe stuff. However, the radicalism of breaking through the cycles of death is to change the whole paradigm proactively—true pacifism is not passive but extremely pro-active. For example instead of spending a trillion and counting in Iraq what if we spent 500 billion in flooding that country and others with unthinkable charity–medical, educational tools, food, etc. etc. We would destroy their narratives and destroy them from within. Destroy your enemies by destroying their narratives. Destroy Iran from within and not bomb them into the arms of their nut job leader and mullahs. There are other ways, but we have to have the will to pursue them. As Wendell Berry said it best, “All wars are a failure of imagination.” I am not a pure pacifist (there are 36 variants) but there are creative ways to prevent war if we have the will and desire for it…IMO

Not rhetoric of peace? Ron M., your comments are very one-sided and bordering on propaganda. Not saying you’re wrong, but it’s probably not as black and white as you make it seem. Can’t we just acknowledge that there are some people who genuinely believe in making the world a better place and want world peace, but who believe that it can be acheived through military strength? Again, I’m not arguing such a position is correct, but your comments basically boil down to: Military Supporter = Evil Baby Killer Who Hates Fellow Man; Pacifist = Virtuous Lover of Peace and All Mankind. Surely you know it’s not that simple.

So since Elder Nelson’s “Blessed are the Peacemakers” I do not recall for the last seven years any other conference addresses extolling the virtue and necessity of pursuing Peace lest we have the press think we are NOT supportive of our government and it’s state of perpetual war. However, I think the point you are making is NOW that Pres. Obama is the chief executive and is making overtures of peace and reconciliation and even disarmament, then being concerned first and foremost as to being good citizens and supportive of our government’s foreign policies THEN will we shift our public allegiance to our new Chief foreign policy maker by finding public expressions of support for Obama’s peace efforts even as we expressed our trust and confidence in our past administration’s war efforts???

Thank you for your thoughtful post. In fairness, you are asking about a shift in emphasis I assume from rhetoric of war to messages of peace. Elder Nelson gave a wonderful address in fall of 2002 entitled “Blessed are the Peacemakers.” What was of interest is that CNN picked it up and said that the LDS church was against our invasion of Iraq. The public affairs could not run out fast enough to say that his message of peace did NOT APPLY to the upcoming Iraq conflict–heaven forbid we take his words of Christ’s words literally to the point of actual application. But consider his words –especially the last two paragraphs which I am pasting here: :

“These prophecies of hope could materialize if leaders and citizens of nations would apply the teachings of Jesus Christ. Ours could then be an age of unparalleled peace and progress. Barbarism of the past would be buried. War with its horrors would be relegated to the realm of maudlin memory. Aims of nations would be mutually supportive. Peacemakers could lead in the art of arbitration, give relief to the needy, and bring hope to those who fear. Of such patriots, future generations would shout praises, and our Eternal God would pass judgments of glory.
The hope of the world is the Prince of Peace—our Creator, Savior, Jehovah, and Judge. He offers us the good life, the abundant life, and eternal life. Peaceful—even prosperous—living can come to those who abide His precepts36 and follow His pathway to peace. This I declare to all the world.

Church Members
Now, as members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, what does the Lord expect of us? As a Church, we must “renounce war and proclaim peace.”37 As individuals, we should “follow after the things which make for peace.”38 We should be personal peacemakers. We should live peacefully—as couples, families, and neighbors. We should live by the Golden Rule. We have writings of the descendants of Judah as now merged with writings of the descendants of Ephraim.39 We should employ them and expand our circle of love to embrace the whole human family. We should bring divine love and revealed doctrines of restored religion to our neighbors and friends. We should serve them according to our abilities and opportunities. We should keep our principles on a high level and stand for the right. We should continue to gather scattered Israel from the four corners of the earth and offer the ordinances and covenants that seal families together forever. These blessings we are to bring to people of all nations.”