“According to one internet source: Islam 1.5 billion followers, Hinduism 900 million, Buddhism 376 million. Forms of Christianity other than Mormonism 2.1 billion.”

And 500 million atheists (according to Elder Oaks). Don’t leave us out.

This is probably off target, but Jesus was also probably highly influenced by social, cultural, and religious pressures.

Those who are willing and able can exercise faith to access the Holy Ghost and thereby obtain a testimony by the power of the Holy Ghost regarding the prophet Joseph Smith and his works. That’s the only way to definitely settle the issue.

To steal a line from Dexter, so was Hitlers. I mean regardless of what your personal feelings are about the man, just look at what he was able to do for an interally corrupting Germany. He unified it, restored patriotism, albeit through distortion, and led a mostly succesful military campaign. You have to at least acknowledge that, right?

More to the point, yes, regardless of what you believe about Joseph Smith, he founded a one time decent community, and what can now be termed a “major” American religion. All in all, he made a dent in history. Now as Brjones said, according to Mormons that dent is the big one right next to the hole made by Jesus. The reality is, all of these “great” things done by Joseph Smith, were supported by those who believed his great claims. It is great that he was able to convince the wealthy that he could increase their wealth by digging for treasure in places shown to him through a rock. It is amazing that the he could start a Church which placed him in the ultimate position of authority. It is amazing that he could start a bank under somewhat religious terms, have that bank fail, lose most of the Kirtland membership, and still be considered a Prophet. It’s amazing that a married man and founder of an American Christian religion, could convince women both single and married, to enter into a secret relationship of polygamy by promising salvation to both them and their families (so much for keeping the commandments). So yeah, now that I think about it, he was pretty amazing.

According to one internet source: Islam 1.5 billion followers, Hinduism 900 million, Buddhism 376 million. Forms of Christianity other than Mormonism 2.1 billion.

If the world population was an elephant, Mormonism might be a medium-sized fly. The “how many millions” or the “tens of millions” Elder Holland used in his talk is silly (pathetic?).

With respect to his fruits, I guess it all depends on what fruits you’re talking about. Clearly there are some who focus on the negative and disturbing things JS did in his life. That’s no different than those who make a judgment based on the good things he did in his life and ignore the bad. Everyone has their own perspective and weighs different values differently. I don’t see any reason for amazement in this.

I am not prone to take every extraordinary claim in the scriptures at face value. So, for me it is not a given that Moses and Aaron participated in a showdown of wizards, causing plagues, illusions, etc. Burning bush, parting the red sea, I am not sure that the authors intend to pass those stories off as real history. Suffice it to say, very little in the observable world gives credence to types of occurences, even 180 years after the windows of heaven were supposed to have been reopened.

The point of Hurlbut was to discredit Joseph by showing alternate explanations for The Book of Mormon, expose his magical thinking, and ultimately discredit the Church. The individual statements were just that, statements, though he has been accused of only investigating those earlier Smith associates who would serve his bias.

Again I would compare the social attitudes on scrying to multi-level marketing. There are still plenty of people who do it, but that does not make it legitimate business model. Society was passing laws against it, so there was at least enough will to condemn it. Regardless, the real issue is that today society broadly views those notions and practices as primitive superstition. Why? Because evidence and experience disproves those methods. Yet, the argument is, “can we fault Joseph for being fooled by the common misunderstandings of his time?” Of course not, it is reasonable to expect that he might share in the social misundertandings that prevailed in his day. However, this is what I meant by arguing that his treasure seeking and prophet periods were interwoven. While we might forgive him for being fooled by common superstition, we have to raise an eyebrow when the same mediums of divination used to scry for treasure, now become the “sacred instruments” used to translate a new Christian volume. This is also what I meant when suggesting that you have not connected the dots. I would argue that most people who have issues with Joseph’s treasure seeking, are less concerned with the idea that he was involved in it at all, and more because of it’s direct relationship to key founding events in Mormon history.

Regarding Isaac Hale, we could split hairs about this, but suffice it to say that his objection to Joseph Smith did not originate with Joseph’s claims regarding The Book of Mormon. Rather, I don’t think he was even willing to give The Book of Mormon a chance because of his disgust with the Smith’s/Stoal & co. form of enterprise. He was willing to shake his head as an outside observer, but when Joseph began pressing him for Emma, he took a more personal objection to what he considered fraudlent labor. It makes Church history look better however, when we paint him as being a religiously stubborn individual who just wasn’t going to believe in miracles, but again his objection wasn’t religion, it was what he felt was dishonesty and laziness.

My grandmother has a certificate for one share of stock in the Dream Mine or Relief Mine, which is supposed to be a Nephite mine located near Salem, Utah. The mine was seen in prophetic vision by John Koyle in 1894. The riches of the mine were supposed to make the share holders rich in a time of world crisis. My grandmother says we should hang onto our share – “just in case.”

I have many of the same feelings as you do. Look at the facts from the Church’s own website:

http://www.providentliving.org/welfare/pdf/WelfareFactSheet.pdf

In a 23 year period, they spent around $282 million in cash on humanitarian assistance. Even if you count all of the volunteer time and everything else, that is $833.6 million in the same time period on “value” of aid.

Per year, this is $36 million annually on aid, and only $12.3 million in actual cash given for humanitarian causes. I don’t know how much the Church takes in each year, but I would assume several billion (I would gladly accept any correction to this number as it’s just a shot in the dark). Even if it’s only ONE billion, the Church gives around 1% of it’s revenues towards humanitarian causes. Yet they spend tens of millions on marble for temples, over $50 million in prescription medicines, and $1 billion for a mall. People may argue that it’s “different” money and comes from a “business”. Well, my income comes from a “business” as well yet I give 10% away.

Just think what the church could do if it gave away 10% of it’s tithes and business income as well. If it were $2 billion, that would be $200 MILLION given away annually – or nearly the amount it has given away in the past 23 years.

Joseph definitely possessed several seer-stones, and they were used in translating the Book of Mormon. The people present, including Martin Harris, Lucy Mack Smith, and David Whitmer described it as such. To make things easier, Whitmer was more careful in distinguishing the seer-stones from the “interpreters” in his later accounts, unlike many others who began referring to common seer-stones as a “Urim and Thummim.”

You’re absolutely right. After about 1830, Joseph stopped using the seer-stone to receive revelation because he said he had become so close to the Spirit. This was a big beef that David Whitmer later had with him; Whitmer thought only the revelations that Joseph received through the seer-stones were valid, and when he left the Church he rejected the rest.

Incidentally, one of Joseph’s seer-stones is currently in the possession of the First Presidency. John Taylor actually consecrated it on the altar of the Manti temple.

As for the use of this other stone: a) I’ve never heard of anything supporting the notion that he used another stone in translating, the way you mention. b) In fairness, that doesn’t mean there isn’t something supporting said notion. c) I’ve also heard descriptions of Joseph both interpreting and receiving revelation through no earthly medium at all, so whether some obscure stone was involved doesn’t seem fully relevant to me.

I would like to see Church leaders serve less as corporate executives and more as humanitarians. I believe there is much more that the Church could do to help suffering people throughout the world than it is presently doing. Perhaps if Church authorities emphasized being in the world but not of the world and inspired us to do that by their personal examples, we might as a Church move to a higher level of consecration and compassion.

In any case, I tend to think of all religion as “treasure-seeking.” In Matthew 13:44 Jesus says: “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.” Is it just an analogy? Or is it the same mentality – wanting to discover hidden mysteries to enrich our lives?

“The general response in this vein is, “well I can accept that Joseph was involved in a silly yet common practice before God straightened him out”.”

This was not my response.

“I however cannot allow my thinking to seperate the two time periods and activities, as the history of the two things is highly interwoven.”

Of course they are interwoven. No one is asking you to think otherwise.

“while Church history insists that Joseph translated the Gold Plates using the “urimm & Thummim, which were supposedly buried with the plates, the witnesses on this supposed piece of history are very inconsistent. What they are not inconsistent on is Joseph’s use of the common seer stone, placed into the center of his hat, as the primary means of “seeing”. It should also be noted that on many occassions, prior to the official three witnesses experience, these men regularly saw, and on at least one occassion touched, the Seer Stone. It was strictly forbidden that Joseph show the Urimm & Thummim, or the plates, to anyone prior to the three witnesses experience. All reasonable history suggests that the stone used on those occassions was the Seer Stone employed in all of the treasure seeking activities, and most likely the same found in the well of Willard Chase. Many of the early revelations Joseph recieved came from the Seer Stone.”

As I mentioned in an earlier comment, the early Saints referred to seer-stones as a “Urim and Thummim.” The interpreters that came with the gold plates were never called a Urim and Thummim until around 1835–previously they were simply the “interpreters,” as they are called in the Book of Mormon. There is no intentional deceit going on, just an inconsistent use of terms that has slightly clouded the historical record.

“It seems rather unlikely that he lost his belief in the folk magic of the day, rather than just shifting it’s purpose from money to religion. We could go on, but suffice it to say the Book of Mormon hinges somewhat on what we believe about the Seer Stone. Would God reveal things through this rock?”

Of course he didn’t lose his belief in folk magic. Joseph never repudiated the seer-stone or its effects; he once told Brigham Young in Nauvoo that EVERY person should possess a seer-stone. I see no reason why God would not reveal things through a stone; in ancient Israel he revealed things through a staff and a burning bush. I believe that God uses the materials available in order to bring about his purposes.

“I think a final point worth noting should be the supposed normalcy of treasure seeking activities. While the mysticism of treasure seeking and water witching were certainly more widely accepted as normal practices in the 1800’s relative to today, I don’t think we can give it a total pass.”

If you’re skeptical of the commonality of treasure-seeking in the Northeast, I would recommend Alan Taylor, “The Early Republic’s Supernatural Economy: Treasure Seeking in the American Northeast, 1780-1830,” American Quarterly 38, no. 1 (Spring, 1986). Taylor, a non-Mormon scholar on the time period, demonstrates well how common and accepted the practice was among rural Americans until about the early 1830s.

“First off, the whole point of the Hurlbut affidavits is that they show such a practice was in many cases seen as occult practice even in Joseph Smiths day.”

That is certainly not the purpose of the Hurlbut affidavits. Hurlbut collected them in order to expose Joseph Smith as a fraud–their emphasis is on the fraudulent nature of his treasure-seeking. The men who signed the affidavits weren’t trying to implicate Joseph as an occultist; they were guilty of the occult treasure-seeking as well and saw nothing wrong with it. As I stated in my original post, treasure-seekers saw no contradiction between the activity and their religion.

“Next, in 1826 when Joseph was tried as a “glass looker”, he was tried for breaking a law that had been established in 1813 which prohibited “a known idler” from pretending to have abilities to read signs, see through glass, etc, in order to learn of hidden riches. In other words, it was ultimately a socially disfavorable practice – though many people still did it.”

It was a socially unfavorable practice among educated Americans who held towards more Enlightened thinking. For rural peoples settling in New England and New York’s expanding territory, it was looked down upon by a few, but probably not most. The same people who looked down on treasure-seeking also looked down on visions, extravagant spiritual gifts, etc.

“Remeber that Issac Hales biggest gripe with Joseph Smith marrying his daughter was that he saw his son in law as a fraud.”

Not just because of his treasure-seeking; Hale believed Joseph was a fraud because of the gold plates. But I’m not sure what you’re point is here. Just because someone thought he was a fraud proves nothing; most Jews thought Jesus of Nazareth was a fraud as well.

With that in mind I think that you have failed to connect the dots thoroughly. It seems that this post and many of the rationalizations of FARMS and Fair that it resembles would like to seperate the Treasure Seeking activities of Joseph Smith, from his “later” activities as a Prophet. The general response in this vein is, “well I can accept that Joseph was involved in a silly yet common practice before God straightened him out”. Some, like Bushman, will lightly try and bridge the two periods in Joseph’s life by saying that the treasure seeking days were somehow preparatory in either preparing Joseph’s mind for “spiritual things”, or by allowing him to learn from his youthful stupidity. I however cannot allow my thinking to seperate the two time periods and activities, as the history of the two things is highly interwoven.

while Church history insists that Joseph translated the Gold Plates using the “urimm & Thummim, which were supposedly buried with the plates, the witnesses on this supposed piece of history are very inconsistent. What they are not inconsistent on is Joseph’s use of the common seer stone, placed into the center of his hat, as the primary means of “seeing”. It should also be noted that on many occassions, prior to the official three witnesses experience, these men regularly saw, and on at least one occassion touched, the Seer Stone. It was strictly forbidden that Joseph show the Urimm & Thummim, or the plates, to anyone prior to the three witnesses experience. All reasonable history suggests that the stone used on those occassions was the Seer Stone employed in all of the treasure seeking activities, and most likely the same found in the well of Willard Chase. Many of the early revelations Joseph recieved came from the Seer Stone. It seems rather unlikely that he lost his belief in the folk magic of the day, rather than just shifting it’s purpose from money to religion. We could go on, but suffice it to say the Book of Mormon hinges somewhat on what we believe about the Seer Stone. Would God reveal things through this rock?

I think a final point worth noting should be the supposed normalcy of treasure seeking activities. While the mysticism of treasure seeking and water witching were certainly more widely accepted as normal practices in the 1800′s relative to today, I don’t think we can give it a total pass. First off, the whole point of the Hurlbut affidavits is that they show such a practice was in many cases seen as occult practice even in Joseph Smiths day. Next, in 1826 when Joseph was tried as a “glass looker”, he was tried for breaking a law that had been established in 1813 which prohibited “a known idler” from pretending to have abilities to read signs, see through glass, etc, in order to learn of hidden riches. In other words, it was ultimately a socially disfavorable practice – though many people still did it. I think a modern comparison might be the way we generally view Multi-Level Marketing. Overall I think most of society wisely rejects this false buisiness model, yet it seems like there is always someone out peddling the snake oil. Suffice it to say, it was not that acceptable. Remeber that Issac Hales biggest gripe with Joseph Smith marrying his daughter was that he saw his son in law as a fraud.

I have no problem with that.

Does the fact that the thing for which you are seeking is buried underground suddenly make this practice evil or scandalous? Does the fact that you believe God sometimes uses natural objects that are part of his creation to assist in transmitting divine inspiration make you a believer in the “occult”? Did not Moses have a staff that he used to dispense divine power? Isn’t it true that the Book of Revelation promises the faithful they will received a “white stone” after they are resurrected?

It wouldn’t bother me in the slightest if Joseph believed all of this. Rather, the only thing that would bother me about Joseph’s use of objects to seek buried treasure is if he did NOT believe in their power, but pretended to believe to make money from it.