Comments on: Time to Study the Old Testament……..Again – Part 1 – Introduction http://mormonmatters.org/2009/11/12/time-to-study-the-old-testament%e2%80%a6%e2%80%a6-again-part-1-introduction/ A weekly podcast exploring Mormon culture and current events. Fri, 10 Feb 2012 04:06:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Hebrew Scholar http://mormonmatters.org/2009/11/12/time-to-study-the-old-testament%e2%80%a6%e2%80%a6-again-part-1-introduction/#comment-119931 Hebrew Scholar Sun, 29 Nov 2009 17:16:48 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=8280#comment-119931 Thanks for your post, but a small correction. You said Jews call the Old Testament “The Holy Scriptures or TaNaKn.” It should of course be Tanakh (not Tanakn), which is an acronym standing for Torah, Neviim and Ketuvim, or the Law, Prophets and Writings. This describes the three main divisions of the Hebrew Bible or Tanakh, a division which was already present in New Testament times. Thanks for your post, but a small correction. You said Jews call the Old Testament “The Holy Scriptures or TaNaKn.” It should of course be Tanakh (not Tanakn), which is an acronym standing for Torah, Neviim and Ketuvim, or the Law, Prophets and Writings. This describes the three main divisions of the Hebrew Bible or Tanakh, a division which was already present in New Testament times.

]]> By: Jeff Spector http://mormonmatters.org/2009/11/12/time-to-study-the-old-testament%e2%80%a6%e2%80%a6-again-part-1-introduction/#comment-116719 Jeff Spector Sun, 15 Nov 2009 04:11:19 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=8280#comment-116719 "I will probably spend the next year in SS trying to add historical context and offering additional ways of reading the few OT passages that are actually used in SS." That is pretty much what I am going to do. I really want to get a ways from the proof texting as you pointed out, but then again, we might stray so far from the lesson, I might get in trouble..... :) “I will probably spend the next year in SS trying to add historical context and offering additional ways of reading the few OT passages that are actually used in SS.”

That is pretty much what I am going to do. I really want to get a ways from the proof texting as you pointed out, but then again, we might stray so far from the lesson, I might get in trouble….. :)

]]> By: Douglas Hunter http://mormonmatters.org/2009/11/12/time-to-study-the-old-testament%e2%80%a6%e2%80%a6-again-part-1-introduction/#comment-116711 Douglas Hunter Sun, 15 Nov 2009 03:29:41 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=8280#comment-116711 #17- I don't really expect SS to teach me things but it would be wonderful if SS was a place where we could learn new things! I would welcome that. I would also welcome a real engagement with the text of the OT and with the Hebrew tradition. I will probably spend the next year in SS trying to add historical context and offering additional ways of reading the few OT passages that are actually used in SS. #17- I don’t really expect SS to teach me things but it would be wonderful if SS was a place where we could learn new things! I would welcome that.

I would also welcome a real engagement with the text of the OT and with the Hebrew tradition. I will probably spend the next year in SS trying to add historical context and offering additional ways of reading the few OT passages that are actually used in SS.

]]> By: Rico http://mormonmatters.org/2009/11/12/time-to-study-the-old-testament%e2%80%a6%e2%80%a6-again-part-1-introduction/#comment-116605 Rico Sat, 14 Nov 2009 11:41:25 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=8280#comment-116605 I am looking forward to it but that might be because I have spent the last year working through it. I am not far, I get side-tracked easily. But I agree with Douglas that with a book as complex and culturally distant as the OT (and the NT for that matter), SS is not the place to study, but then again I am not sure I have a big problem with that. I don't expect SS to teach me things. I have made attempts over the last year as well to learn biblical hebrew, but buying a bible is expensive and it has held me back. But it is worth trying. I think I treat myself this Christmas. I am looking forward to it but that might be because I have spent the last year working through it. I am not far, I get side-tracked easily. But I agree with Douglas that with a book as complex and culturally distant as the OT (and the NT for that matter), SS is not the place to study, but then again I am not sure I have a big problem with that. I don’t expect SS to teach me things.

I have made attempts over the last year as well to learn biblical hebrew, but buying a bible is expensive and it has held me back. But it is worth trying. I think I treat myself this Christmas.

]]> By: Douglas Hunter http://mormonmatters.org/2009/11/12/time-to-study-the-old-testament%e2%80%a6%e2%80%a6-again-part-1-introduction/#comment-116522 Douglas Hunter Sat, 14 Nov 2009 02:05:49 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=8280#comment-116522 I think we need to stop using the term study. In no way do we study the OT or any other text for that matter in the church setting. We engage in proof texting to make points about our own doctrine. I very much agree with the idea that we put a lot of spin on the OT. We Mormons in particular, are very selective about what we value in the OT. We just about totally do away with the ethical teaching of the Hebrew tradition while latching onto the idea of keeping ourselves in the tradition of "chosen" people. I think we need to stop using the term study. In no way do we study the OT or any other text for that matter in the church setting. We engage in proof texting to make points about our own doctrine.

I very much agree with the idea that we put a lot of spin on the OT. We Mormons in particular, are very selective about what we value in the OT. We just about totally do away with the ethical teaching of the Hebrew tradition while latching onto the idea of keeping ourselves in the tradition of “chosen” people.

]]> By: bfwebster http://mormonmatters.org/2009/11/12/time-to-study-the-old-testament%e2%80%a6%e2%80%a6-again-part-1-introduction/#comment-116213 bfwebster Fri, 13 Nov 2009 00:08:14 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=8280#comment-116213 I teach the Gospel Essentials class; for the last year, I've had two convert couples in there and have been teaching from 'Preach My Gospel' -- basically, I've been teaching the missionary discussions (which double as the new member lessons), usually covering just one point per class. Most classes, I start with an Old Testament scripture if I can, just because I love tying the Old Testament into all the foundational principles of the Gospel. I did get to teach OT in Gospel Doctrine the first time ever two years ago, and I had a blast. I think the class enjoyed it, too. ..bruce.. I teach the Gospel Essentials class; for the last year, I’ve had two convert couples in there and have been teaching from ‘Preach My Gospel’ — basically, I’ve been teaching the missionary discussions (which double as the new member lessons), usually covering just one point per class. Most classes, I start with an Old Testament scripture if I can, just because I love tying the Old Testament into all the foundational principles of the Gospel.

I did get to teach OT in Gospel Doctrine the first time ever two years ago, and I had a blast. I think the class enjoyed it, too. ..bruce..

]]> By: Joe in Cedar City http://mormonmatters.org/2009/11/12/time-to-study-the-old-testament%e2%80%a6%e2%80%a6-again-part-1-introduction/#comment-116209 Joe in Cedar City Thu, 12 Nov 2009 23:35:48 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=8280#comment-116209 Jeff... I agree that the original Hebrew text must be considered when studying the Old Testament. For instance... Did you know that Joseph's coat of many colors is better translated as the "coat of many pieces"? In Old Testament times the laborers wore vests, while those in authority wore coats of many "pieces" including the sleeves. So Joseph had a higher authority than his brothers, making them jealous and envious of him, ultimately causing them to fake his death, and sell him into slavery. A coat of many "colors" makes no sense in this story... Jeff… I agree that the original Hebrew text must be considered when studying the Old Testament. For instance… Did you know that Joseph’s coat of many colors is better translated as the “coat of many pieces”? In Old Testament times the laborers wore vests, while those in authority wore coats of many “pieces” including the sleeves. So Joseph had a higher authority than his brothers, making them jealous and envious of him, ultimately causing them to fake his death, and sell him into slavery. A coat of many “colors” makes no sense in this story…

]]> By: Jeff Spector http://mormonmatters.org/2009/11/12/time-to-study-the-old-testament%e2%80%a6%e2%80%a6-again-part-1-introduction/#comment-116204 Jeff Spector Thu, 12 Nov 2009 23:08:47 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=8280#comment-116204 The biggest problem with Christian and LDS study of the Old Testament is the "spin" they put on it. In other words, the study is bias toward their own views. There are some interesting studies and papers that have been done on that subject which I will save for a later time. Not to mention the issues with translation and revisions. The biggest problem with Christian and LDS study of the Old Testament is the “spin” they put on it. In other words, the study is bias toward their own views. There are some interesting studies and papers that have been done on that subject which I will save for a later time.

Not to mention the issues with translation and revisions.

]]> By: Joe in Cedar City http://mormonmatters.org/2009/11/12/time-to-study-the-old-testament%e2%80%a6%e2%80%a6-again-part-1-introduction/#comment-116202 Joe in Cedar City Thu, 12 Nov 2009 22:51:07 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=8280#comment-116202 If you are interested in a deep study of the Old Testament follow this link: http://www.joncourson.com/teaching/teachings.asp I bought the MP3 CDs and listen to them every time I am driving. The "types" and "pictures" of the stories in the Old Testament ultimately point to Christ. The entire old testament points to Christ and when you realize its about him your entire perspective changes. I love all of Jon Courson's teachings on the Old Testament, but I particularly love the six teachings on the Song of Soloman. The Song of Soloman is often discounted, ignored, or even discouraged to be studied. However, this book was a favorite of CH Spurgeon. C. H. SPURGEON (the great 19th cent. preacher) on the Song of Solomon: " The true believer who has lived near to his Master will find this book to be a mass, not of gold merely, for all God's Word is this, but a mass of diamonds sparkling with brightness; and all things thou canst conceive are not to be compared with it for its matchless worth. If I must prefer one book above another, I would prefer some books of the Bible for doctrine, some for experience, some for example, some for teaching, BUT LET ME PREFER THIS BOOK ABOVE ALL OTHERS FOR FELLOWSHIP AND COMMUNION (my emphasis). When the Christian is nearest to heaven, this is the book he takes with him." If you are interested in a deep study of the Old Testament follow this link: http://www.joncourson.com/teaching/teachings.asp

I bought the MP3 CDs and listen to them every time I am driving. The “types” and “pictures” of the stories in the Old Testament ultimately point to Christ. The entire old testament points to Christ and when you realize its about him your entire perspective changes.

I love all of Jon Courson’s teachings on the Old Testament, but I particularly love the six teachings on the Song of Soloman. The Song of Soloman is often discounted, ignored, or even discouraged to be studied. However, this book was a favorite of CH Spurgeon.

C. H. SPURGEON (the great 19th cent. preacher) on the Song of Solomon:
” The true believer who has lived near to his Master will find this book to be a mass, not of gold merely, for all God’s Word is this, but a mass of diamonds sparkling with brightness; and all things thou canst conceive are not to be compared with it for its matchless worth.

If I must prefer one book above another, I would prefer some books of the Bible for doctrine, some for experience, some for example, some for teaching, BUT LET ME PREFER THIS BOOK ABOVE ALL OTHERS FOR FELLOWSHIP AND COMMUNION (my emphasis). When the Christian is nearest to heaven, this is the book he takes with him.”

]]> By: SteveS http://mormonmatters.org/2009/11/12/time-to-study-the-old-testament%e2%80%a6%e2%80%a6-again-part-1-introduction/#comment-116201 SteveS Thu, 12 Nov 2009 22:48:38 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=8280#comment-116201 I've been studying the OT for the past 1.5 years now and find it fascinating, if a bit distant. The hard thing about the OT, imo, is that it is a lot harder to "liken" than NT, BoM, or D&C texts. I agree with many of the comments already that it would be nice to take a different approach and not seek to liken, but to contextualize. But having done so myself, I have to say it throws up lots more questions about the nature of revelation, priesthood authority, God's "plan", etc. than it provides answers, especially if you try to see an LDS worldview and ethos in OT writings (hint: it ain't there!). And understanding the OT's literary provenance further clouds the waters, especially as the astute student begins to see flaws in JS's reading of the OT based on early 19th-century protestant assumptions of its historicity. I completely understand why the church stays as far away from this kind of study in any of its instruction fora (GD, seminary, institute, etc.), and why they discourage "bible study" groups meeting in individuals' homes. But I think this decision ultimately does a disservice to members of the church. To me, continuing to teach "doctrine" the way the church does by favoring a "warm feelings" approach, it must increasingly ignore myriad rich sources of scholarship in ancient religious and cultural studies that can provide more nuanced perspectives of what the text is, what it says, and how it should and should not be read in our times. I’ve been studying the OT for the past 1.5 years now and find it fascinating, if a bit distant. The hard thing about the OT, imo, is that it is a lot harder to “liken” than NT, BoM, or D&C texts. I agree with many of the comments already that it would be nice to take a different approach and not seek to liken, but to contextualize. But having done so myself, I have to say it throws up lots more questions about the nature of revelation, priesthood authority, God’s “plan”, etc. than it provides answers, especially if you try to see an LDS worldview and ethos in OT writings (hint: it ain’t there!). And understanding the OT’s literary provenance further clouds the waters, especially as the astute student begins to see flaws in JS’s reading of the OT based on early 19th-century protestant assumptions of its historicity. I completely understand why the church stays as far away from this kind of study in any of its instruction fora (GD, seminary, institute, etc.), and why they discourage “bible study” groups meeting in individuals’ homes. But I think this decision ultimately does a disservice to members of the church. To me, continuing to teach “doctrine” the way the church does by favoring a “warm feelings” approach, it must increasingly ignore myriad rich sources of scholarship in ancient religious and cultural studies that can provide more nuanced perspectives of what the text is, what it says, and how it should and should not be read in our times.

]]> By: J. Madson http://mormonmatters.org/2009/11/12/time-to-study-the-old-testament%e2%80%a6%e2%80%a6-again-part-1-introduction/#comment-116171 J. Madson Thu, 12 Nov 2009 21:33:16 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=8280#comment-116171 @8 I have to agree. Wouldn't be nice if we actually studied the OT for once and tried to figure out what it is trying to say rather than decide a priori what it is or isnt and read it into the text @8

I have to agree. Wouldn’t be nice if we actually studied the OT for once and tried to figure out what it is trying to say rather than decide a priori what it is or isnt and read it into the text

]]> By: Euhemerus http://mormonmatters.org/2009/11/12/time-to-study-the-old-testament%e2%80%a6%e2%80%a6-again-part-1-introduction/#comment-116162 Euhemerus Thu, 12 Nov 2009 21:00:00 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=8280#comment-116162 I'm anxious to hear some of Jeff's insights given his background. I must confess, I am probably one of those who are too quick to dismiss the OT in favor of the NT and other scripture. Jeff, I'd be interested in knowing how your perspective of the OT changed when you converted to Mormonism? I’m anxious to hear some of Jeff’s insights given his background. I must confess, I am probably one of those who are too quick to dismiss the OT in favor of the NT and other scripture.

Jeff, I’d be interested in knowing how your perspective of the OT changed when you converted to Mormonism?

]]> By: the narrator http://mormonmatters.org/2009/11/12/time-to-study-the-old-testament%e2%80%a6%e2%80%a6-again-part-1-introduction/#comment-116147 the narrator Thu, 12 Nov 2009 19:51:46 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=8280#comment-116147 I have to admit that I find the use of the Bible in Sunday School classes to be either almost entirely boring and frustrating. Mormonism seems to be (like most everything else) years behind in Biblical scholarship and hermeneutics. It's one thing to study as if everything were merely 'likening' the scriptures to our modern times, but we tend to instead read the Hebrew Bible and New Testament through the eyes of 19th century protestants, millenarians, and restorationists without the slightest attempt to read them as what they are - ancient oral narratives highly influenced by their cultures and prophetically restructured to deal with their own peoples in their own times. I have to admit that I find the use of the Bible in Sunday School classes to be either almost entirely boring and frustrating. Mormonism seems to be (like most everything else) years behind in Biblical scholarship and hermeneutics. It’s one thing to study as if everything were merely ‘likening’ the scriptures to our modern times, but we tend to instead read the Hebrew Bible and New Testament through the eyes of 19th century protestants, millenarians, and restorationists without the slightest attempt to read them as what they are – ancient oral narratives highly influenced by their cultures and prophetically restructured to deal with their own peoples in their own times.

]]> By: Jeff Spector http://mormonmatters.org/2009/11/12/time-to-study-the-old-testament%e2%80%a6%e2%80%a6-again-part-1-introduction/#comment-116127 Jeff Spector Thu, 12 Nov 2009 18:12:30 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=8280#comment-116127 #4, CS Eric. Good point. Everything is slanted toward how it relates to our Doctrine, not just what it says. So you miss a lot of explanation of how things evolved the way they did. mh, Two years might be enough time to explore some of that. #4, CS Eric. Good point. Everything is slanted toward how it relates to our Doctrine, not just what it says. So you miss a lot of explanation of how things evolved the way they did.

mh, Two years might be enough time to explore some of that.

]]> By: mh http://mormonmatters.org/2009/11/12/time-to-study-the-old-testament%e2%80%a6%e2%80%a6-again-part-1-introduction/#comment-116113 mh Thu, 12 Nov 2009 17:32:06 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=8280#comment-116113 I love the OT. I think we should take 2 years to review it. we spend a year on 20 years of the d&c, and spend a year to cover thousands of years of the OT. something seems off here. I love the OT. I think we should take 2 years to review it. we spend a year on 20 years of the d&c, and spend a year to cover thousands of years of the OT. something seems off here.

]]> By: Mark Hansen http://mormonmatters.org/2009/11/12/time-to-study-the-old-testament%e2%80%a6%e2%80%a6-again-part-1-introduction/#comment-116112 Mark Hansen Thu, 12 Nov 2009 17:22:55 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=8280#comment-116112 Fascinating. I had no idea it was an oral tradition for so long. Interesting in light of what we say in the 8th article of faith... Fascinating. I had no idea it was an oral tradition for so long. Interesting in light of what we say in the 8th article of faith…

]]> By: CS Eric http://mormonmatters.org/2009/11/12/time-to-study-the-old-testament%e2%80%a6%e2%80%a6-again-part-1-introduction/#comment-116110 CS Eric Thu, 12 Nov 2009 17:11:02 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=8280#comment-116110 I just wish we would really study the Old Testament. I have to remind myself that the name of the class isn't "Old Testament," or "Scripture Study," but "Gospel Doctrine." I just wish we would really study the Old Testament. I have to remind myself that the name of the class isn’t “Old Testament,” or “Scripture Study,” but “Gospel Doctrine.”

]]> By: Stephen M (Ethesis) http://mormonmatters.org/2009/11/12/time-to-study-the-old-testament%e2%80%a6%e2%80%a6-again-part-1-introduction/#comment-116108 Stephen M (Ethesis) Thu, 12 Nov 2009 17:01:09 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=8280#comment-116108 I think that the Old Testament is useful for the human fraility it displays in the people it is about. I also like the small nuggets, here and there (such as Noah had a grandson who divided the land with the gentiles, according to their languages, well before the Tower of Bable ... which implies that by then they had met people outside their family, whose decent was a different chain, and outside the flood). I think that the Old Testament is useful for the human fraility it displays in the people it is about.

I also like the small nuggets, here and there (such as Noah had a grandson who divided the land with the gentiles, according to their languages, well before the Tower of Bable … which implies that by then they had met people outside their family, whose decent was a different chain, and outside the flood).

]]> By: Dan http://mormonmatters.org/2009/11/12/time-to-study-the-old-testament%e2%80%a6%e2%80%a6-again-part-1-introduction/#comment-116089 Dan Thu, 12 Nov 2009 16:07:46 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=8280#comment-116089 I'm the Sunday School President in my ward, and in a month from today, we're doing a symposium on the Old Testament with various breakout sessions on various topics like "Women of the Old Testament" and "Understanding Isaiah." If anyone in Manhattan would like to attend, it's on December 12 in the Inwood ward. I’m the Sunday School President in my ward, and in a month from today, we’re doing a symposium on the Old Testament with various breakout sessions on various topics like “Women of the Old Testament” and “Understanding Isaiah.” If anyone in Manhattan would like to attend, it’s on December 12 in the Inwood ward.

]]> By: Keri Brooks http://mormonmatters.org/2009/11/12/time-to-study-the-old-testament%e2%80%a6%e2%80%a6-again-part-1-introduction/#comment-116086 Keri Brooks Thu, 12 Nov 2009 16:02:48 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=8280#comment-116086 I'm definitely looking forward to studying the Old Testament. It's my favorite part of the standard works. I love the richness and depth of the stories; there's something about them that just speaks to me. I think it's because the stories are messy, contradictory, and ambiguous - just like modern life. Through all the mess, God's love and covenants shine through. I’m definitely looking forward to studying the Old Testament. It’s my favorite part of the standard works. I love the richness and depth of the stories; there’s something about them that just speaks to me. I think it’s because the stories are messy, contradictory, and ambiguous – just like modern life. Through all the mess, God’s love and covenants shine through.

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