I humbly aknowledge others views including yours. There does seem to be lots of indirection whenever one discusses the afterlife and eternity. We just do not know enough about it to know for sure. The views can varry so greatly- from one end tot he other, I am left to wonder at the fact that we perhaps are really no better off than any other Christian on what heaven and hell is and who makes it and who doesn’t. I can accept that perhaps I am wrong, but I also can accept that perhaps others are wrong too. Perhaps we are all wrong, eh eh. Just kidding.

I do jump the gun often times and I should relax and be more humble to others and not assume anything.

1) They disagree.

2) Even if they agree, they don’t agree that it is the plain and simple teaching of Christ.

You obviously don’t accept the “no movement between kingdoms” view of the Plan of Salvation, even though there are those who say, in essence, “Give credit where credit is due, I am not the author, I am just restating what Christ himself taught.” It’s fine and dandy if you really believe that, but please don’t use it as a end-of-discussion justification on this site.

Notice, I have said nothing about my own view of this basic issue, so please don’t extrapolate to what you might assume I believe. I’m simply saying that I hope you understand why your #76 won’t fly here – ironically among those on both sides of most issues we discuss.

Personally I believe the gospel doesn’t make any sense whatsoever if there isn’t progression between kingdoms. We certainly progress through kingdoms in the temple and that is supposed to be the best teaching we have regarding the plan of salvation.

That is ok you disagree, most do. It still doesn’t change the fact that there are problems with our current doctrine that probably will not be solved anytime soon. We think other Christian religions have issues, but we ourselves have issues piling up just as high.

I find it interesting that we are supposedly going to be judged eternally on choices that we make here on Earth, while our understanding is so flawed and incomplete. For example, we really don’t have any idea what the Celestial Kingdom will be like. I think it is safe to say that the familial dynamic and sexual dynamics that exist here on the Earth will be significantly different in some way or another, but we really don’t know. Furthermore, I don’t know if I really want to have eternal increase or create worlds without end. All that extra “glory” sounds like a lot of work to me. In a slightly unrelated note, the most noble reason for me to choose to do good is because I love God, when despite my best efforts he remains largely unknown to me, but I digress.

It makes me think that maybe there will be progression between kingdoms, so that we can choose what we truly desire once our understanding has fully enabled that sort of choice. I know that McConkie and others have spoken against that notion, but Bruce R. has said a lot of things that I have a hard time with.

I currently remain active in the church mostly because I promised my wife that I would when we got married and if I quit going, it would be huge mixed expectation for her and cause a huge rift between us. I God would really condemn me to outer darkness when I have legitimately given it my best effort, but still don’t believe, whether I stay in the church for the wrong reasons for not, then I really misunderstand things.

It should read- (or according to Jesus Christ, we’ll eventually all be polarized into binary categories)

Give credit where credit is due, I am not the author, I am just restating what Christ himself taught.

There is also this naïve idea that during our lifetime we produce some finite amount of discrete, countable, and self-contained objects which we call “sins” that can be logged and archived for future recollection.

We talk a lot about how important it is to realize that this mortal life is continuous and analog, yet it seems that the afterlife is going to be discrete and digitized. Tough luck if you’re a floating-point rounding error.

Re: #19, I think you have it exactly right about finding God unpalatable. Persons get their wish if they want a reality that isn’t. A loving God can give then that much, but the delusion of reality one individual can control and maintain by shutting out all the rest of reality is SO very small and limiting. Spirits who go to outer darkness would find heaven to be hell.

The gospel of Jesus Christ (from his own lips) speaks of either salvation or damnation. He speaks of what it takes to be saved from hell into heaven. Christ often spoke in parables about heaven and hell. He spoke in general easy to understand terms. One of my favorite parables is about the “wheat and the tares”. This parable teaches of a strict heaven/hell dichotomy. The wheat and the tares are allowed to grow in the field which is represented as “the world”. The wheat (sons of God) and the tares(sons of perdition) are allowed to grow together until harvest. The harvest which begins at or around the second coming will continue until the end of the millennium. At this end, the wheat (sons of God) will all be secured in the garners (names written in book of life in physical temples dotting the earth). Read D&C 101:65-

65 Therefore, I must gather together my people, according to the parable of the wheat and the tares, that the wheat may be secured in the garners to possess eternal life, and be crowned with celestial glory, when I shall come in the kingdom of my Father to reward every man according as his work shall be;

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 101:65)

The interesting aspect of Christ’s gospel is that it is a strict dichotomy. Now I am not implying anything about the different degrees of glory within the Kingdom of heaven (celestial kingdom) which will exist. What I am stating here is that after the millennium there will be only “one” kingdom that Christ will be presenting to the Father- His kingdom- those who Christ has made perfect and without spot. Jesus Christ has made clear through his words and his prophets that he will save all the works of Gods hands minus only the sons of perdition. He will save all of those he saves through obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel (see articles of faith # 3,4). This is because this is the only method available to be cleansed from sin- the physical waters of baptism. Baptism implies a new change- a new spiritual birth into godliness- becoming a son of God. Once we are baptized, we literally are born into the kingdom of heaven (celestial kingdom ultimately). There is only one thing keeping us from His presence, that being our unclean sinful states. So, the logic is that if Christ saves and cleanses all he saves in the end from all of their sins, then there is nothing that would not allow us back into His presence.

In the end I would believe that there would be hardly any that do not make it to the kingdom of heaven (celestial kingdom). One of the points I believe in is that the Telestial and Terrestrial Kingdoms at that point will not exist as “worlds” for the saved to go. I personally believe there has been a disconnect in regards to interpretation of the plan of salvation. The temple endowment in my view offers us the correct interpretation of the plan of salvation where instad of being assigned a kingdom in the end, we progress through them in order to end up in the celestial. The temple clarifies what the three kingdoms represent and mean- literally! The Telestial is the world we now live in. The Terrestrial is the kingdom of Christ’s reign during the millennium. In the end the Terrestrial will come into Gods presence and be crowned with it’s celestial glory along with all of those on the earth whose names have been secured in the garners (temples) to possess the earth in its celestial glory.

This thus answers the ends of the parable of the wheat and the tares- the wheat will be secured on the earth to possess eternal life in celestial glory while the rest will be the tares and be burned with unquenchable fire in thelake of fire and brimstone. Taht fire of course being a spiritual agonizing state of mind knowing you are chained down in the chains of hell and not being able to have choice (agency) to do anything about it to escape that torment. That is how Satan destroys our agency- he really can do it!

So, yes, I believe in a strict dichotomy of heaven and hell because nothing else would make sense in light of Christ’s spoken parables and gospel principles.

#49-JulieAnn–re: Adolph Hitler. He was baptised vicariously. The paperwork is actually floating out there in the internet. I read the story and printed out the paperwork for my files, although at this point can’t direct you to it on the internet. It very well may have been at Utah Lighthouse, I just don’t remember. I know many people don’t like (hate?) the Tanners’ work, but they come across a lot of stuff that is nowhere else to be found.

At “http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/hitlertemplework.htm” (sorry don’t know how to insert a link so you can click on it), you can read an article by Helen Radkey that relates interesting facts about the baptism and records about his baptism. I have quoted some of this below.

“There are currently Ancestral File ordinance records that show that Adolf Hitler was “baptized” on September 4, 1993, “endowed” on October 12, 1993, and “sealed” to his parents and also Eva Braun on June 14, 1994 in the Los Angeles Temple. The June 14 sealing of Hitler and Braun is the same sealing of which Roberts sent copies to McAreavy and Ashton. These entries could once be found in the IGI. They have since been deleted, along with other entries for prominent Nazis.

I have IGI copies of all the LDS ordinance records for Hitler, which are currently in the Ancestral File—but no longer in the IGI. As well, my copies show another baptism for Hitler, almost identical to the one still in the IGI files under Heidler (Hitler) with the same ordinance dates.”

Are you describing one heaven and one hell? Are you saying you believe there will be a large number of people who will be in Outer Darkness? Are you saying that there will be a large number of people who will NOT bow and confess that Jesus is the Christ – or that there will be a large number of people who will do so and still be cast into Outer Darkness? Do you believe in a literal lake of fire and brimstone?

Again, I ask so that I don’t make any incorrect assumptions.

I really have to say that I liked what Ray said in comment 53. Now, I provide a bio, and I try to articulate my position, because I do believe that, however arbitrary and dynamic words can be — however many places there are for miscommunication — we should still strive to try to communicate.

But I also agree with him that labels lead people to assumptions that are flat out wrong. The descriptions that we come to through our life experiences, as Mike S illustrated so well in comment 56, highlight the inadequacy of language to fully capture who we are.

That was my short answer I posted before (#64). Now I will expound a little more.

We are cleansed from sin as we repent, one by one of those sins. Its an ongoing process that certainly will not be fulfilled in this mere short lifetime! But there will come a time when we will be made aware of our past sins and then be given the chance to repent of them. When I speak about repenting of “all” our sins to be cleansed through the atonement, I mean it literally in that until we fully repent of all our sins and forsake them, we are not ultimately cleansed in the end from our sins. The BoM is replete with the commands to forsake all of our sins and ask for forgiveness. Let me put it this way-

At the judgment in the end (after the millennium) we must have repented of all of our sins. We cannot at that day say in our heart that we love Christ and yet also love sin in some small degree. It is at that day that we must stand spotless- cleansed from all sin or we cannot gain salvation. Is this fair? Certainly. Satan will be thus removed and when he is only godliness will exist and there isn’t room in the Kingdom for sinners at that point. There will be no eternal fence-sitters stuck between a love for sin and a love for God in the end. You will either side with God and forsake all of your sins and becleansed by his blood and be spotless, or you will go with Satan into the lake of fire and brimstone. Remeber- Christ saves all the works of the Fathers hands who have been given to him to save. Christ will continue to work until he can present the kingdom (us) before the throne of God in a “spotless” condition.

Let’s face it, I knew about MMM and Joseph Smith’s gun in Carthage jail and polygamy etc. long before the Web brought all that to the surface from books published by the Church, BYU or Deseret book or such.

The thing is that for many people, living the gospel “just works” (to borrow an idiom from computer world). It makes our lives feel fulfilled, or at least better than they were before. I’ve seen lifelong LDS members “convert” and realize that gospel living has a lot to offer.

BTW, I was trying to do some statistical analysis based on scriptural themes, and based on just word-crunching it looks like the scriptures talk more about the love of God and the reward of the righteous than the punishment of the wicked. It’s just that the “false traditions of their fathers” have made people look at the hell fire and brimstone stuff so much.

In the beginning days of wide-scale missionary efforts, the Christian early medieval kings, aided by priests, would basically give you a choice of beheading or baptism. I guess that was what passed for freedom to choose for them. In that context, it is no surprise that the word for apostasy would come from a word that means a runaway slave.

Then again look at ideologies like Fascism or Communism. They used fear extensively. The Khmer Rouge in Cambodia needed no religion for terrorizing people, neither did Mao, Stalin or Hitler. What keeps North Korean or Burmese citizenry in line is mostly fear.

We have a culture of confrontation, which we should really work to get rid of. Retributions and recriminations will always just deepen the wounds. So if anyone sees her- or himself on a higher plane, please show it by giving a good example, not by berating the shortcomings of people who basically just want to do what they think is right. If someone feels better out of the Church than in, that’s not a problem for me. I don’t really see why it should be a problem for anyone that I find happiness and fulfillment inside rather than out. I’ve been on both sides, so I know the difference.

When Joseph Smith was talking about apostates, he was usually talking about people who would publish libelous statements, swear false affidavits, perjure themselves in trials, anything to make life difficult for Latter-day Saints. And among them were people, Apostles, who had been present when some notable miracles had happened and revelations received.

In summary, I think we view repentance and grace/atonement differently – and I simply don’t believe we have to wait for full repentance to be cleansed by the Atonement of Jesus Christ. I think that Atonement is MUCH more powerful than such a construct – and that it does FAR more for all God’s children than most people understand. Based solely on the parsed meaning of your words, it appears you don’t think anyone is cleansed by the atonement in this life – and I don’t think that’s what you mean. Of course, I could be wrong.

That’s one of the reasons I believe that very, very few “apostates and ex-Mormons” will end up in Outer Darkness – and why I’m not about to try to speculate as to whether any individual will or won’t.

Rob, so, what does it mean to “remain unrepentant”?

Basically, I will give the short answer-

It means that you do not repent of all of your sins and thus cannot be cleansed by the atonement.

I think my interest in a brief bio on posters comes from my style of reading. I like to know something about the author of whatever I read. Been a habit of mine for a long time.

But like you said–no traction with it here.

Thanks for your perspective.

Just watched a great movie, returned and saw your comment. It looks like my idea of a bio has gotten poor reviews. I’m a good enough politician to know when an idea I’ve floated is dead on arrival.

You’ve got your facts wrong. I’ve mentioned this idea 3 or 4 times–total. If you want to discuss something with me, please do so. But don’t bully, lecture, or try to come up with some nonsense reason for my motive.

If you don’t like the idea, say so, but how about canning the rest of it.