“It is true that the world is in opposition to the Kingdom of God. We must boldly acknowledge it. The efforts of the so called punker converts of the 1990s who embraced the ancient truth of Orthodoxy (as in the recent interview) have much to say on the theme. But more than the sober and controversal symbols, religious slogans and hermetical isolation they promote, we must courageously encounter the world they reject while protecting ourselves against its corrupting influence. This is a difficult task but one that all believers are called to. A careful reading of St Paul’s epistles demonstrate the need for separation from worldly philosphies and sinful temptations … while remaining in the struggle of life. We live, work, laugh and cry in the society of our fellows. This is life as it is lived in reality. The podvig (struggle) is to be in the world but not of it. It seems to me that we must be done with the notion that the modern, the newer and more advanced is nearly always and inevitably the better. That is a lie! In order to understand our present age we must rather return to the truths of the ancient past. Our doctrines and covenants issue forth from earlier times and themselves contain ancient truth drawn from a distillation of anceint wisdom. Orthodox, Mormons and Adventists share some conceptual truths while having dramatic differences. At the very least, may each group seek more effective ways to avoid entanglement with the world while loving Christ and the society of mankind that He created.”

David – have you been Orthodox your whole life?

That kind of deep connection with tradition that I’ve always loved about Orthodoxy. The LDS Church has tried in its own way to connect to the Church of the past, with Apostles and Prophets, laying on of hands for priesthood authority, etc. But Orthodoxy sure does feel ancient and mystical. It’s beautiful. Thank you for sharing with us.

JMB275′s comment about a perceived nostalgic tone in the interview struck a chord with me. I think it’s much deeper than nostalgia. It’s at the core of Orthodox Christianity. That is, the deep interconnectedness of the Church today with the Church of Christ, the apostles and the saints of history. Orthodoxy is organic in that it is a living body whose head is Christ and life has existed for the past 2000 years consistently and faithfully in it’s members. Orthodoxy is unique in that it stands as a beacon in the midst of a pluralistic post-Christian society as THE Christianity founded by Christ and his apostles, alive and kicking after 2000 years of unrelenting persecution. Not only is it alive, but it is fresh, relevant, and yet virtually unchanged. We believe in the communion of saints, meaning that the Church established by Christ continues in harmony and communion with the Church today. We could not imagine a Christianity where this nostalgia does not exist; where the life and doctrines of the Church today is different from the life and doctrines of the Church of the past.

Seriously though, we could do with more study of the Orthodox.

There are ways that we can mitigate the effects of modernity but sometimes it does seem like taking a vitamin pill instead of a nutritious diet.

I agree. I can see this as well. On the one hand I am grateful that I don’t have to milk my own cow, grow my own food, etc. Trade allows for this, and is a brilliant concept allowing our society to elevate itself. However, I worked as a landscaper for about a year and I did, in fact, like it far more than any exercise program I’ve ever followed (even though all I did was shovel dirt). There is something satisfying about manual labor.

But I bring it up because there seems to be a mystical aspect to physical labor and living close to the land. Our ancestors developed religions to codify and understand what I consider to be an inherent mysticism in life, nature, and our consciousness. Being lazy in an intellectual or spiritual sense could in this way be tied to laziness in other areas.

Could be, this is a good thought. The obvious question, to me, would then be: are we simply pre-programmed to feel a connection to our own work and labor (as opposed to our exercise program)? Or is there some form of divine presence or closeness that permeates us, along with nature, that enables us to feel intertwined with it when we work in that context?

Great post!

I think that the LDS people do see suffering in a better light than most people. I even think we have an acceptable handle on when things go too far. I don’t think we medicate ourselves at the first sign of depression, but I think we do medicate ourselves when that depression has gotten out of hand.

There really isn’t a solution to the fact that we seem to be running counter to our design. There really isn’t. We recognize, for instance, that the human body needs exercise and work, so we artificially have to create gyms and sports to keep that side of us healthy. We don’t walk nearly enough so we put walkways and paths everywhere, and we sell millions of treadmills to people. There are ways that we can mitigate the effects of modernity but sometimes it does seem like taking a vitamin pill instead of a nutritious diet.

But I bring it up because there seems to be a mystical aspect to physical labor and living close to the land. Our ancestors developed religions to codify and understand what I consider to be an inherent mysticism in life, nature, and our consciousness. Being lazy in an intellectual or spiritual sense could in this way be tied to laziness in other areas.

I think it’s a refreshing new perspective though. Perhaps we don’t need to beat ourselves every day in order to glory in our suffering, but perhaps we need to look at suffering through a different lens.

Yes, I agree generally that “suffering” can be good and we ought to view it in that light. “Whatever doesn’t kill me makes me stronger” said Nietzche. Metaphorically taken this is a very true statement. As we weave our life narrative we must incorporate the suffering. Religion provides a very good mechanism for doing just this. It provides meaning, context, etc. Furthermore, suffering, when handled appropriately, can lead us to more wisdom, and greater enlightenment adjusting our worldview appropriately. We become more like Christ – in essence.

However, do we not already do this in Mormonism? I agree with you in the “general society” sense, but in Mormonism it seems like we already value suffering in this way. The idea that we are here on “trial” speaks volumes about the importance of suffering. Couple that with the Mormon idea that we “won’t be tempted above that which we are able” and it seems like we have a pretty healthy attitude toward suffering in Mormonism. We appreciate the joy, but see the need for suffering. The life “trial” gives the suffering context, and D&C 122 re Joseph’s experience gives us hope coupled with humility.

I guess what you’re trying to say is that, in some sense, we are running counter to our design by using modern conveniences. In that vein, what do you suggest for society fixing this? It seems like his statement:

We have forgotten holiness; we have stopped striving for wisdom. Many souls today live off of the electric shock that comes off of our computers, not by virtue or purity. Sex crimes, murder, suicide, etc. run through the streets today like a pack of wild dogs, consuming many, some that we personally know.

is more geared toward the idea that we have become lazy in an intellectual, personal, and spiritual sense, not necessarily a physical sense. His call is a call to elevate virtue through spirituality and Jesus Christ.

I think it’s a refreshing new perspective though. Perhaps we don’t need to beat ourselves every day in order to glory in our suffering, but perhaps we need to look at suffering through a different lens.

So yeah, I was floored by John’s response because it’s was just so NEW to me, and it seemed like something we could all learn from perhaps.

My overall impression is that, like Mormons, he seems to be concerned about an ever increasing wicked world in which the collective “they” (although this is always poorly defined) are becoming less virtuous, forgetting the ways of Christ, and becoming too pampered in the modern world. Certainly there is truth here.

I was a bit surprised by his nostalgic tone, hearkening to the days of suffering, glorifying and praising them. It feels like the “us vs. them” he is describing is not only a current one (people separated by beliefs/faith), but also a temporal one (the older generation vs. our generation).

There are too many churches today that sway with the times, which change year to year depending on the culture surrounding them because they think it will bring more people in. People see that Orthodoxy is not like that, she does not change with the world around her because she is too deeply focused on the life of the age to come, ever being engulfed by and directed to heaven. People who see the fakeness in this world want Orthodoxy because they see it as a refuge that will always be preserved and firm among the ever crumbling world around them.

I thought this was particularly interesting. We have a mechanism in Mormonism that attempts to balance absolute, unchanging truth, with the need for “continuous revelation.” It seems to me there is wisdom in both ideologies. This can be seen in our members. Some members will welcome the change as they see a continual need to “prune” the vineyard. Others cling to unchanging doctrine as an “iron rod.” It would seem that Orthodoxy prides itself on the latter. This helps to explain the nostalgia I think.

The only thing I didn’t like was that it feels very down and depressing. After reading it I feel like I should suffer more (or at least try to view my life through the lens of suffering) so I can grow from it. Where is the celebration of the great things society does do right? Where is the joy that stems from great medicine, the ability to stay in touch with people easily, the abundance of information at our fingertips, and the great blessing that we live in a relatively safe and secure country that still honors human dignity and basic rights? I guess I find too much to celebrate in this life to spend my time in suffering. I agree fully with this:

Both joy and suffering should be acknowledged as part of our journey toward salvation.

In any case, I loved this piece Arthur. What a great perspective to read. I thoroughly appreciate it!