“Rather, we should dress modestly out of mutual respect for each other. Jesus taught that we should love our neighbors, and part of loving our neighbors is agreeing to live reasonably within societal expectations. We aren’t loving our neighbors if we choose to wear clothing that we know will offend someone else.”

As far as modesty is concerned I think you are right, as for other societal issues, I’m more among the group that will stand out in defiance. Though I think love is a missing trait on our society today, to what extent should we try to show love and when should we offend someone? So my question to Reuben is, should we live within societal expectations to show love in all things we do or just things that are more trivial like modesty? (Sorry I just don’t think modesty is as important in the grand scheme of things as compared to other societal problems.)

For the one exercise science class that I’m taking this semester, not everyone even abides by the dress code on the syllabus. Does this objectify some and not others, in my mind no, but then again I’m sweating and stinky….I’m not in the gym to attract a mate…outside of the gym, that’s another story. So let me wear what is comfortable when I’m exercising and let us realize that Reuben is right, modesty is defined by the situation.

As a side note, since it is rivalry week here at BYU, Brigham Young and the cougar are dressed in plastic wrap (many things are actually wrapped up). Normally I would say that wearing something like that is inappropriate, but drastic times call for drastic measures. Go Cougars!!!!

Wait — you run in spandex? Please, please stop.

The problem is that BYU puts those poor athletes in skin tight spandex short shorts. Blame me for noticing if you want.. but I am not the problem.

The problem is that you “noticed” things that aren’t even in the picture. That’s what makes you sound weird and creepy.

Your #27 just creeped me out even more. I’m worried about females in your life.

please stop. please. BYU also puts football players, swimmers, gymnasts, track and field athletes, cross country runners, dancers, Cougarettes, softball and baseball players, and lots of other people in athletic and expressive uniforms or costumes. These uniforms and costumes are appropriate for the physical activities in which they are participating. Students and faculty no longer have to wear BYU issue clothing when they exercise on campus, so guess what I wear when I go running at the SFH? That’s right, spandex. I’ll bet all the people who see me running around down there aren’t thinking “aw man I can see the shape of that guy’s butt!” These athletes and performers don’t sexualize themselves, its people like you who do it. Its your problem, not theirs. And you become part of the problem of all those who do see these uniforms and costumes as sexually prurient as you write letters to the university trying to use shame or guilt to cause change through your narrow interpretation of “modesty”.

Please, please stop.

Hawkgrll did get one thing wrong. Men don’t have seven times more, they have forty to SIXTY times more testosterone.

I didn’t find her remarks sexist in the least. I found them to be accurate. Shall we see how many strip clubs there are in our town featuring men? Why, there aren’t any? But how could that BE?? There’s such a HUGE DEMAND for it…women, picketing all across Main Street, asking to see half-naked males wriggling their junk in a speedo!

Tell me, if what she said isn’t true, then men aren’t biologically predisposed to act like pigs at said strip clubs. It must be all behavioral then. How interesting and sad. I guess, in my 41 years on Earth, I am just a sexist, too.

In terms of your response to ‘Any’, I say kudos.

THEN you start spouting off about ‘the awesome power of female sexuality!’

“Oh please”.

(Pssstt…The Scarlett Letter was fiction, and you might think that fiction is an accurate representation of the human condition, but it isn’t; it only shows one small facet of one small percentage of the human condition.)

Power is a tricky subject and one for another time. The bottom line is this: we agree on religions exacting control of it’s members veiled under the guise of ‘purity’ and repressed sexuality…and SPEAKING of repressed sexuality…

#22 & #27 ‘Any’…I don’t even know what to say to someone like you. I feel so sorry for your daughters all I can do is pray for them and hope they have a good lock on their bathroom door. The women in the picture are athletes. HOW YOU GOT THE VISUAL YOU DID IS JUST PLAIN SICK AND WRONG. (sorry for yelling, everyone). You remind me of the guy who protests and fights loud and hard about pornography, only to be busted with boxes and boxes of it in his garage. Creeper indeed. Oh, and I’d rather be prideful than so submerged in my own self loathing that I have to project my desires out onto the rest of the world. Thanks.

You are right, the terminology is not the problem. The problem is that BYU puts those poor athletes in skin tight spandex short shorts. Blame me for noticing if you want.. but I am not the problem.

For me, if I’m looking at the phenomenon of romantic attraction as scientifically and objectively as possible, the physical attributes that “modesty” seeks to hide from the world (in women, large breasts, hourglass figure, full lips, shapely butt or calves or thighs or whatever; in men, broad shoulders, visible musculature, strong jaw, facial hair, etc.) are those that have been programmed through natural selection to help us notice those who would be ideal mates and ensure the survival of the species. The reason why the concept of the “sweet spirit” is so comical is that everyone secretly knows that despite everything we try to teach about valuing testimony and good works over physical attraction, nobody really buys it. We still seek someone uses his or her physical attributes in combination with other personality traits to exhibit their romantic interest to us. I wouldn’t be married to my wife today if she hadn’t shown me over the course of our courtship that she was not only interested in me for my “testimony” and “career potential”, but also because she desired me sexually. She didn’t have to wear revealing clothing to communicate that, but she did have to acknowledge and express her sexuality to entice me toward a future time when the full expression of that attraction could be consummated. And I don’t see anything wrong with that.

So taking away a woman’s ability to express her sexuality through the way she looks is another example of that romantic paternalism that is perpetuated in the church. And while it preserves the virginity of many a young LDS woman, it also creates a large number of lonely unmarried women who overextend the “laws” of modesty and never learn to appropriately communicate their sexual attraction to potential mates.

#20 Sexism day here at MM. Why would modesty only “help produce transcendence as they hold to their purity” for women? Once again, fear of female sexuality abounds. Why is it so important to box (pun intended) up female sexuality?

Ulysses, I think you have misunderstood (or I didn’t properly convey it). I was speaking specifically about women in this context as the discussion is revolving around women’s modesty. I did not intend (although I may have inadvertently implied it) that the same was not true for men.

In the FSOY pamphlet the bulk of advice is to women (or so it seems), as is clearly described in the post. I am simply explaining why it (women’s modesty) might be useful in a way other than to ward off men. The same might be true of men, but I suspect that many men likely have other things in their “purity” priority queue than covering up their body.

There is no fear in sexuality (at least not for me). But that doesn’t mean we can’t hold it sacred. Holding something sacred is a psychological trick that seems to increase happiness in people. It’s not that the object itself is actually sacred (it may or may not be), but the act of revering something as “pure,” “holy”, or undefiled is useful. When women (and men) in Mormonism, cover themselves (as prescribed by the church) they are reverencing something they hold sacred, leading to transcendence of the self.

Sorry for the confusion.

The terminology isn’t the problem.

#17 Hawkgrll: “because men are typically physically larger than women, are the ones brimming with seven times the testosterone and are visually aroused by women in a way that women are not by men.” Oh please. Sexual stereotyping at its most sexist. Imagine the outrage if I wrote that women are physically inferior because they have too much estrogen coursing through their veins and it makes them all cold fishes in the sack. I wouldn’t say that of course, because that would be sexist and sexism is a two edged blade.

Any: You may need psychological help. Labial folds? You are the example I was speaking of in my original post, which every one always ignores — par for the course — but the religion is all about trying to control your sexuality. You are obviously conflicted, given your labial meditations. You don’t want to see them, but you do. What should you do now? Sing a hymn Elder, sing a hymn. Might I suggest page 221 of the hymnal, “Dear To the Heart of the Shepard” it has great lyrics about getting the sheep back into the “fold.”

#20 Sexism day here at MM. Why would modesty only “help produce transcendence as they hold to their purity” for women? Once again, fear of female sexuality abounds. Why is it so important to box (pun intended) up female sexuality? Probably because it is more powerful than a male’s — longer lasting, potentially more insatiable and more powerful. Don’t believe me — compare the sexual strength of Hester Prynne and Arthur Dimmesdale in The Scarlet Letter. It also was a lot better about making my point on religion and sexuality. I know you all were supposed to read the book in high school, if not look it up a synopsis on Wikipedia.

The problem is that there’s a picture, and in that picture there are no visible “labial folds.” Which means it took considerable imagination to get from the picture to visualizing labia. Which makes you sound like a creeper.

In other words, I might be fine and happy not worrying about what other people are wearing, but I just wish they’d stop worrying about what I’m wearing.

Oh, ya, someone got up my grill about judging Marie Osmond, re-read the scripture.. it says don’t judge “unrighteously”. I would very much prefer to teach my daughters modesty without having to explain why the highest profile LDS woman in the last has skirts on that go up mid-thigh on TV (not talking about her dancing costumes, I am talking about when she is sitting on the couch on the set of Entertainment Tonight).

Context is everything!!

I agree that the real issue here is objectification of women (by men) and respect for one’s sexual purity (by women). In the grand scheme of things, humans seem to derive psychological benefit from holding things sacred. Maybe it’s the oxytocin!! In either case, modesty, for women, can help produce transcendence as they hold to their purity. For men I think it helps us respect women around us (okay okay, really it just keeps our hormones in check). Since generally women don’t have quite the same problem that men have (men are the sexually violent ones) the reverse doesn’t apply quite at the same level.

I agree with hawk that it is a slippery slope. But this:

It doesn’t feel quite right that the limits to keep men at bay are all applied to women.

I don’t quite see. Almost every conference men get lectured about keeping porn at bay, being worthy priesthood holders, keeping our thoughts pure, etc. I think it is a fairly balanced message. The message I get is – women, please dress modestly for your own sake and the sake of the men, and men, please try to control your thoughts and don’t debase yourselves as worthy priesthood holders (think “mind is a stage” talk by Packer).

From my perspective (being male) I do appreciate a dose of modesty by women at the right times. When I’m at work, school, church, etc. I like not being distracted by a beautiful woman in revealing attire. It’s not that I can’t “control” myself, but the automatic processes in my mind are very powerful!! OTOH, when I’m watching a swim meet, I’m not the least bit bothered by the swimsuits as it suits the activity.