Really Elder McConkie? You think Education is Worship!

You have mentioned this to me in the past and i like the idea. I just think there is some problems with it. First we often worship at the same time, would they want to miss their service to come to ours. Second most members in our church would not reciprocate, and we do not have anything worth taking to them, on a ward level. Plus I would feel embarrassed asking a choir to come to our church for the few people we have. it would seem like a waste of time.

Adoration-type worship is a sacred experience for me (I have a membership application underway with the Evangelical Covenant Church). The fact that there’s so little of it in Mormonism is part of the reason I think I would have a very miserable time being LDS even if I believed every doctrinal principle taught by the church is true.

I think adding more adoration worship to LDS services is a fantastic idea.

I don’t agree that having two or three talks in Sacrament meeting isn’t worship. Our church is, in many respects, an outgrowth of Calvinism. It manifests itself in our unadorned buildings (no statues of saints or stained glass windows) and in the practical aspects of our talks, which focus on practical issues from a spirit-based perspective.

The times of year this lack of traditional worship bother me are at Easter and Christmas (making your post an extremely timely one). My mother-in-law (a non-member who has a LOT of issues w/her son now being a member of the LDS church) was shocked this past Easter when she asked what kind of services we would hold and I had to tell her it was Stake Conference. Over and over she asked, “No services? Nothing? Really?” She visited us briefly recently and asked whether we would have Christmas Eve services. Again, I told her no. It seems to me that all too often in our effort to understand and become like Christ, we forget the blessing that the sense of awe that *worship* can bring us. Worship is not solely about praising God and returning Him and Christ their dues. It’s about the peace it can bring into our hearts. Abraham Heschel said that prayer isn’t about going to God and asking for blessings; it’s about communing with him and, if we’re lucky, receiving blessings. Prayer and worship are the same in that respect.

While I agree with MrQandA that we are encouraged to participate in our own adoration-type worship, I believe giving us more opportunities in a congregational setting to do the same–even if just twice a year–would help us better commune with God on a daily basis. Testimony meeting, I believe, is meant to serve this purpose, but it’s been a while since I’ve heard a true “testimony” and not just an account of someone’s week.

A church in my neighborhood is having Christmas Eve services, and I plan to take my family there–not b/c I’m ready to defect but b/c I want us to experience communal worship this holiday.

Check out Harold Bloom’s The American Religion. In it he makes the argument that Mormonism is uniquely American in character because it incorporates elements of gnosticism. The basic gnostic idea is that knowledge gives you power over the natural environment and that salvation comes through the acquisition of (possibly esoteric) knowledge. Bloom’s argument effectively explains why LDS services contain more sermons, testimony and ordinances than worship per se.

Also, I’ve noticed that any effort at adoration is usually reserved for Church leaders, present and past. I find this a bit out of balance.

Interesting post. Thanks.

I love this post! I was raised as an Irish Catholic and had strong spiritual longings as a child and young adult. After reading the Book of Mormon I joined the Church at age 19. At 23 I served a mission to Italy and subsequently graduated from BYU. Coming from the northeast US, I had a hard time with the blandness, lack of reverence, and “non-celebratory” traditions of the LDS service.

My saving grace was the Temple endowment which re-connected me with the adoration and celebratory nature of my upbringing. I still have a very hard time at Christmas and Easter and have taken upon myself (with the Bishop’s approval) to make our services more Christ-focused and celebratory.

I don’t think that we would struggle as a group if we adopted more adoration into our weekly services. In fact, I think we have adopted an adoration mentality but we only apply it to the Church leadership (see http://www.followtheprophet.net for an extreme example). It is this lack of adoration which turns off many of the converts who come from more liturgical religious traditions. It should be remembered that most of our converts outside the US are coming from Catholicism (Brazil, Mexico, Argentina, Chile and the Phillipines). There is a major cultural disconnect occurring between the mountain west approach to worship and what is longed-for outside that geographical area. As the convert base exceeds 50% of current church membership, I see the opportunity to learn from the awe, splendor, adoration, celebration and reverence exhibited by other Christian faiths. The Calvinistic model is not set in scripture.

As concerning our tradition of salvation through confirmatory knowledge, we fail miserably on that account due to our refusal to offer meat at our meetings instead of milk. We only give lip service to seeking further light and knowledge in our Sunday meetings.

It can be difficult for Latter-day Saints that were not raised in the mountain west mormon culture to find deep and satisfying meaning in our current meetings. Those that are successful in obtaining mature testimonies do so primarily through personal worship, personal prayer, personal scripture study, personal adoration and personal revelation. Many do not get to that point because the communal “worship” is more like a glorified social club and this depresses them.

I know I am generalizing somewhat but I think there is much truth to be found and much “deep-soul joy” to be experienced in true communal worship that incorporates both emulation (in the day-to-day) as well as adoration.

#10 – I have read it. But I am not convinced by his argument in many ways. I think there is some merit to it, but i think that he sees in Joseph Smith a gnostic element that reflects his own religious persuasion rather than something that Joseph Smith was conscience of. However, I think the worship-culture we have now is more a product of the assimilationist period that followed Polygamy and the Reed Smoot hearings.

#11 – i find it stirring, but I certainly do want to go the other way. So i agree a blend is important. Or something else, other ways of worhsiping, or other types of adoration worship.

On the music issue. I personally feel that (ironically) as it turns out that packer’s talk on the Arts and the Spirit of the Lord which discussed standards of Music in our worship services (which later got incorporated into the CHI) has actually stifled our musical worship. I think there is a great deal people would do if they could be allowed to express their preferences more. If we had that freedom of expression bringing in other choirs would not be needed.

Timely post.

I have a bit of a rant. Our stake produced a musical event the first Saturday in December and has Stake Conference scheduled the second Saturday/Sunday in December. This leaves the wards trying to “cram” in their ward Christmas party around events the stake has already scheduled. It was our ward’s decision to make the First Presidency Christmas Devotional our “ward party” rather than overscheduling events and taking families away from their homes too many times. A primary activity day with a Christmas theme was held for the children.

Our Sunday-before-Christmas Sacrament Meeting will feature a high council speaker.

I’m planning a quiet protest of the timing of Stake Conference by boycotting it, including the leadership meeting, the adult session, and the Sunday session. I’ve asked my wife to find something (anything) for Saturday so that I can say we have a family conflict. On Sunday, I’m not sure if we will drive an hour to go to Sac Mtg in another stake, have our own family Christmas activity, or go to the CoC meeting–which I’ve been wanting to do anyway. Wish me luck.

Now that the rant is over, I wanted to comment about adoration worship. I agree it seems a little difficult as a group to create it without someone feeling uncomfortable. My mother once filled in for the Methodist organist in our home town for the Christmas Eve mass and was impressed with how respectful they were with communion. An accident happened and one of the crackers was dropped onto the carpet. From that point onward, each person came forward and knelt at the spot on the carpet where the Lord’s Supper had rested before proceeding onward to receive their communion. I understand that the theology is different, but she always used that as a teaching pearl to prompt us to appreciate, prepare for, and reverence the sacrament. Sacrament meeting reverence seems to me to be our most regular opportunity for adoration worship.

I do remember one talk from a divorced mother, thinking of applying adoration worship, about building a close relationship to Christ and she shared a personal story that sometimes when she is kneeling by her bed praying, she likes to place her pillow on the bed and rest her head on it and imagine she is resting her head on the Savior’s lap. The joy she felt from this was evident, but I don’t think everyone related to it at the same level and what was adoration for her was weird to others.

Just a story about an invited choir, which I’ve mentioned before. A local college choir that included a member of our congregation came and performed during a sac mtg when I was in a singles ward. They were beautiful and I enjoyed them very much. After the closing prayer, interestingly, they performed another number which turned out to be a new setting of Ave Maria. I found that to also be beautiful and knowing of its controversy with regard to LDS services, found it to be almost a guilty pleasure. The Bishop, however, took offense to it and we had to hear about his displeasure about its being “snuck in” to the program for a few weeks.

From a talk by E. Oaks in 2008 Oct GC: “All sacrament meeting music requires careful planning, always remembering that this music is for worship, not for performance.” I think it’s this squeamishness about performance and the conflation of the concept of worship with stoic and subdued behavior that sets the tone for Mormon music. Other faiths consider worship to be celebratory and “adoration” – but we don’t like that because it’s “performing” rather than “worshiping.” I don’t necessarily agree with E. Oaks’ restricted definition of “worship” as used here. It’s clearly not the same kind of worship as in other faiths. I’m not sure “worship” is the right word for our version.

I like the rationality, pragmatism. I came from a non-worshiping tradition, practically without a religion, just knowledge about Christian tradition.

The Pentecostal and Southern Baptist meetings I attended were too rah for me. Too much clapping of hands and stomping of feet. I thought the Spirit could work better in a quieter environment. The gifts of the Spirit were never intended to be Circus tricks, IMO.

For me, there is the paradox, a tension between Emulation — the ideal of striving towards Christ-like characteristics — but also Adoration in the stark realization, that I have no way of achieving the ideal of being Christ-like in this life. Perhaps I can get closer, but never there.

That gives me a sense of purpose and a sense of the Divine, too. I’m happy, but I could see how someone could yearn for something flashier.

We are encouraged to participate in Adoration-type Worship on our own… [C]onducting it within groups raises issues.

Ditto to Ms Jack’s #7: What “issues,” and why? Also, how are we encouraged to engage in solitary Adoration? What do we Mormons do in private worship that we don’t also do in public worship? Pray, sing hymns, study scriptures––standard fare on both the individual/family/domestic and ward levels.

I don’t agree that having two or three talks in Sacrament meeting isn’t worship.

Hmm. I could get behind that statement if you were to edit it slightly––thus: “[H]aving two or three talks in Sacrament meeting isn’t worship.”

I have a lot of “holy envy” (© Krister Stendahl) for the Catholic/Anglican “High Church” traditions, which, I suppose, is why on major religious holidays I go to Mass, and why I use the Liturgy of the Hours in my own prayer life. I hope that as the Church grows, our worship can take on a little more liturgical flavor, but I’m not holding my breath. It seems that when we step into our Chapels we become puritanical iconoclasts, which (just like MPs who don’t allow their missionaries any music whatsoever––and there are a few) makes us miss out on some of the aspects of worship that touch me the most.

#15 – We actually ahve something exciting coming up in our ward musically. Primarily because the Bishop has read that section of the Handbook, but it is still more limited than it needs to be in my opinion.

#16 – Thanks. I think it is sad that leaders can be thoughtless in this way regarding how important certain worship services are to us as members. I guess there is some hope that we can have choirs participate in our services. I don’t think the Bishop would mind about that happening in our ward.

#17 – I am pretty sure it is a re-issuing. I think CHI and a recent statement by 1st Pres have gone against that sort of thing.

#18 – It was the Packer talk that originally came up with that distinction. I agree that this create some fears. primarily because anything that deviates from crisp presentation (and by that I mean some feeling or expression) is linked with a performance.

#19 – I have to agree that there is much that I love about our services. I also feel that there are other dimensions we have not explored.

#21 – Givens book ‘A People of Paradox’. It is genuinely brilliant. But the opening essays are the ones that explore the paradoxes. The other essays are histories of Mormon Culture. Sorry, I have forgotten to put my footnotes in, I will try and rectify that now.

#22 – i think the type of prayer I engage in at home is different from th type at Church. In fact I am pretty sure that my private prayers in made public might make people uncomfortable.

Rico,

Thanks for an excellent post. I think that Givens point is really important, as are your other points. Its another situation in which we need definitions prior to discussion but such definitions continue to be difficult to establish. If the idea that “. . . perhaps, it is not strange to conclude that the highest form of worship is when such certainty is conveyed or shared between searching individuals.” is right, then I think it necessarily limits the role of worship, since continually repeating certainty is tiresome and by definition does not lead to exploration or a sense of wonder. The things we are certain about are the things we end up taking for granted; but more than that, such constructed certainty glosses over or obscures important differences in individual experience and belief, the stock phrase “I know the church is true.” being an example of such a function. I think worship needs to express our appreciation of, dependency on and commitment to God and Jesus. So I tend to agree with your final idea that worship could focus on our closeness to and distance from God, although I don’t quite see this as a paradox. I like the idea of being reminded of our distance from God so that we break out of the habit of seeing God as simply a “bigger better version of ourselves” as Karen Armstrong has put it. The divine is by definition radically different from the human, our worship could be a pronouncement of our understanding of that difference in its fullness, while at the same time articulating our commitment to keep striving to reconcile ourselves to that difference while also having faith that we can, through eternal progression transgress it.

#25 – can you help me understand this statement “I often speak with my husband about this and he, as a lifetime member, still struggles with knowing who Jesus Christ really is and how to know him personally” – as someone who is truly investigating this church and also having a somewhat similiar background as you (with a lot of focus on knowing Jesus personally) it startles me a bit that a church that includes His name in it and that ends almost everything I have heard in the Ward services I have attended with “in the name of Jesus Christ” that someone who has been a lifer in the church would be struggling with who Jesus is and how to know him personally – I don’t mean this in any negative sense I am really curious what your (or his) take is on that…

Thanks

#30 – I took the opportunity to discuss this with my husband last night to clarify exactly what he meant. I retract a little on what I said. He said it’s not that he doesn’t know who Jesus Christ is, he just finds it difficult to focus on a relationship with him as he allows his life to overtake to the point that he becomes too ‘busy’ to concentrate on Jesus Christ. So it would seem that my husband is the one who needs to work on this but chooses at this time to not make it a priority. I also feel that it has a lot to do with his upbringing, the family values that existed in his childhood. He was brought up in a family where obedience to the Gospel is the key to happiness. I think this is due to the conservative ward that he was raised in, which is also the ward we attend now. A lot of focus is given to the letter of the law in classes and Sacrament meetings, instead of what is discussed above, the worship of Jesus Christ. It’s a shame because I believe that individuals are missing out.

Douglas, I think it is interesting that other pastors you know have similar issues. The idea of intentionally creating dissonance is interesting. Actually, as I think to some o the times I have taught at Church i think I have intentionally sought out such dissonance by raising difficult questions. I will have to give this some real thought as I also feel that there is a limit to which I would feel comfortable pushing this at Church, for the sake of others and my own membership.

I think your right that is why I might struggle with it. The reason I concede it is probably not a paradox is that I believe and relish the idea that I can become like God, in the sense of entering a divine relationship with him. The reason I suspect it might be is that depending on which theology you accept, if we are forever dependent on God in order to become like him (and he is not dependent on anyone for his divinity) – as Ostler argues – then this maintains a sense of radical difference which still persists even once we have entered into that relationship. There is still this push/pull in our worship.

On another note I ave nearly finished entre nous by Levinas. I think there is a few posts I am gonna try get from it. I need to read your dialogue article first though.

Re #29

Erik,

Is that the case even for the conferences where there is no GA visiting? If so, I will cut the SP some slack. There is a silver lining of no “extra meetings/interviews/counting of donations” for that Sunday. I would think, however, a Ward Christmas party would be more appropriate for the season than an Adult session of Stake Conference.

#37 I wish you well with your journey.