JARE: Thanks for the advice, but I’d rather talk to “real people” rather than the “PR people” and that is who would turn up from the Church and the newspaper ads. We weren’t able to get the practicing man-on-the street LDS faithful because we were not on the approved and sanctioned list. Let’s just bring this to a finish by saying, one more time,…..yes, it would have been a different documentary IF we could have had voices from the Church chime it.(AND BELIEVE IT OR NOT, WE REALLY WANTED THEM FOR THEIR DIFFERENT POINT OF VIEW) But, they chose to be mute, so the film is what is it, and calling it one-sided is an ill-informed comment.

RAY: Per Jared’s kudos to you…you didn’t respond to me…you responded to former TBM brethren. I was the messenger and you know what happens to them

And after almost three weeks of ducking and dodging the incoming righteous salvos….I have a film I want you to watch and it is not mine. Take a look at CITIZEN KANE and fast forward to the Hall of Mirrors scene where nothing is as it seems and it is impossible to tell when the truth is being reflected back to you…For this Never Mormon, it is the perfect metaphor for what has transpired since December 22… 281 postings ago.

Suggestion for easy interviews with TBM:

Contact the churches media center and ask for help. I think you will find them willing to provide you with what you are looking for.

Put an ad in the newspaper asking for TBM and explain what you’re objectives are.

I’ve never made a film so I can’t speak from experience.

Ray–you did a great job responding to Dennis.

Of course they don’t always play fair. That’s the nature of human interaction. It’s unfortunate, but it’s the way it is. (In fairness, since we’re speaking of it, unfair play is present on both sides of the exchange.)

My “vitriol” is an empathetic shout to have some mutually beneficial dialogue happen…

I sympathize with you and share your desire to create mutually beneficial dialogue. I guess what I’m trying to tell you, Dennis, is that I fear you’re shooting yourself in the foot. On this thread anyway, you came across to me (and I am a “Shadow Mormon”) as more vitriolic than empathetic. I understand you might be comfortable with your approach, that you care deeply for the plight of the individuals in your film, and that you have strong feelings about the subject matter. I respect and appreciate it. But if mutually-beneficial dialogue is really your aim, not just awareness, or a way for marginalized members to fight back, or whatever, I’m simply suggesting you take another look at your tone and approach when engaging Mormons in conversation, because — as someone on “your side” — I’m telling you it’s going to have the exact opposite effect.

In the end, I can’t change the way you engage in conversation and I can’t force to you understand or see what I’m trying to convey, but I hope you’ll think about what I’ve shared and consider at least experimenting with a different approach.

Please allow me to make my point by quoting a few things you posted here in previous comments and ask you to see them from the perspective of a believing member. I will try to illustrate what I mean:

“stop wasting money onTemples, and feed and clothe ALL the poor, not just the Mormon poor.”

To a believing member, that says, “Eliminate the single most sacred thing about Mormonism” - and it also badly misrepresents the aid that the LDS Church gives.

“Announce that ALL church revenue henceforth and forever would be donated to the Salvation Army. No more buying ranch land in Nebraska or insurance companies or shopping malls. The world would be a much nicer place.”

To a believing Mormon, that says, “Destroy the LDS Church and replace it with the Salvation Army, since the world would be a much better place without Mormons and the LDS Church.”

“Come out. Announce that Mormonism is a fraud.”

To a believing Mormon, that says – well, exactly what it says. OK, it also says, “You stupid fools are decieved and brainless imbeciles.”

Honestly, I have no problem with people believing whatever they believe, including those who made the statements you posted. I just think it’s beyond credibility to post those statements and also say that you support and love Mormons and want everyone to be able to believe whatever they want to believe – and the message that you despise Mormons and the LDS Church simply screams at believing members who read statements like the ones I’ve quoted.

I would love to talk with you passionately but civilly about the LDS Church and issues that I agree are very serious and important issues – but extreme statements that imply the world would be better off if Mormonism and the LDS Church were eliminated entirely aren’t going to get me talking with you. Those kinds of statements are a self-fulfiling prophecy, since they drive away the very people you say you want to include.

There is bad that happens within Mormonism and the LDS Church (and, btw, there is a differece between those two). I have said that openly and regularly. However, there also is MUCH good – and the pure theology is wonderful and (almost) universal in its expansion of grace. Homosexuals face particular challenges, and I have no problem with those who simply must leave to find peace and joy (even as I strive to find ways to aleviate the need to leave) – but if you are going to reach “regular Mormons” it is going to take some Christ-like willingness to see them as real, good, caring, complex people at heart and their religion as a force for good in their lives every bit as much as a problem.

There is a great lesson in “We love Him, because He first loved us” – and it’s brutally hard for those who have felt rejected to emulate. It’s still important to try, however, especially given the injunction to “do good to those who spitefully use you.”

Do you understand what I’m trying to say?

In response to your question — is there a time when they meet me where I am? The answer is an unqualified yes.

I’ve been blessed with strong believing friends, family, and even a current bishop who have been kind and loving and understanding as I cautiously and trepidatiously decided to reveal my concerns. In fact, the love and acceptance I’ve felt from them has been overwhelming, especially because I was expecting the opposite.

Now, I have to be selectively forthright. I can’t be “out” to many people in my congregation or even my family, because I know the reaction from the majority wouldn’t be as welcoming. I hope that, over time, this will change. I think films like yours could be beneficial in driving that change.

But my point, and what I hope you can come to see, is that if you really want to be a part of that change, you must respect and understand your audience. You must show them you understand them and empathize with them, even that you love them and value the good in what they have to offer. That’s what I mean by meeting them halfway.

What I’ve gotten from your comments here is that your perception is something of a caricature: the oppressed and victimized “shadow members” against the rigid fundamentalism of the institutional church. While there is some truth to that — all caricatures are grounded in some sense of reality, that’s why they’re recognizable — the reality is much more complex (as reality always is). I’d encourage you to get to know the mainstream Mormon community if you really feel your heart is drawn to this issue.

I also want to make it clear that the “vitriol” of which I speak has less to do with tone of the film — which I haven’t seen, so I can’t make a judgment (though I truly take you at your word that it isn’t vitriolic) — but instead refer to the tone of some of your posts here on Mormon Matters.

I hope you will do a story using TBM as your source so that you can get a perspective on Mormons that isn’t so one sided.

Dennis, as a “Shadow Mormon” in many respects myself, I wish you’d cut back on the vitriol. If you really seek understanding and acceptance for people like me, learn empathy and tolerance for the believers’ perspective. You’ll never get them to listen to you until you meet them where they are.

I had planned on purchasing the film before I saw this thread, but I’ll have to think twice about it now.

Lyndon-

I have friends who go on medical missions every year through the church. I’ve put humanitarian kits together numerous times, and worked at sort centers along side my children. The service being performed is changing lives in monumental ways. The difference that a measles shot makes to one person is the difference between living and dying. I care about lives being changed for the better. I care about the difference it makes in me to serve and to see outside myself and realize there are many out there who are less fortunate than me. I care about the difference that my friends are making by taking time from their very busy schedules to teach others in foreign countries life saving techniques. I’m very grateful to be a part of an organization that makes it much easier for me to serve by providing ample opportunities for me to do so and by making it easier than ever to make a difference in the lives of those I hear about, but have felt helpless in the past to know what to do about.

I’m sorry you have so many negative feelings about the LDS church and that you feel your being treated badly by others, I don’t wish that upon anyone. Best of luck to you.

We are in agreement, Ray. This sort of inhumanity and intolerance is found across the religious spectrum. My daughter has an ex-Jehovah Witness friend that could tell you horror stories about being shunned and demonized by the JW congregation that makes my experience look tame. The point here is that there is a direct correlation between this type of intolerance/inhumane treatment and the degree to which the organization uses destructive mind control. Where there is smoke, there is fire.

Oh, and fwiw, the way you use “destructive mind control victims” would be much easier to translate if you just said “cultist robots” – especially when you add things like “diminished capacity”. Just saying.

Lyndon, if my mother thought thought that, I would think she belonged to a “cult” as well. I am continually amazed at some of the experiences people have been through, and VERY grateful for my own. I can’t imagine what it would be like to be in your position.

The point here is that mind control victims are typically doing the best they can, given their diminished capacity. Many of us Ex-Mormons are horribly mistreated, and undeservedly so. My own mother thinks I am possessed by Satan, and told me that to my face. Two things are inviolate with parents; (1) the inherent righteousness of their children, and (2) their core belief system. The situation with my mother is difficult to resolve, because she has a child (me), denouncing the core belief system (Mormonism). So voila, enter a third party to take responsibility for this quandary. It is a beautiful solution that allows my mother to continue loving me and believing in my inherent goodness while retaining her core beliefs. She is doing the best she can, and I appreciate that and still love her dearly. So in essence, when she says she that I am possessed by Satan, the translation I substitute is “I know you are a good person, Lyndon, and would never intentionally disparage the LDS Church, which I know to be the only true church, so I have put the blame on a fictional character.”

My case is a simple one and easily explained. Others are not so readily dismissed and/or translated into terms that might try to reveal the basic humanity, respect, and decency of the people involved. Temple Shadows shines a light on this inhumanity at last, and I hope that it will help all of us understand and contribute to an atmosphere of mutual respect and tolerance (including me!).

To add a bit to the discussion of identity replacement mentioned in comment 236:
While the new name given in the temple plays a negligible role, the LDS church does employ identity replacement techniques related to names and titles in other ways. Rather than issuing members unique groupthink names, members are expected to address each other as ‘brother’ and ‘sister’. [I even have witnessed married couples address each other as 'brother' and 'sister' in non-church settings, and not as a joke.] The terms bring with them an expectation of groupthink conduct. Just as a parent scolds a child using their entire name, many of us have heard LDS use the ‘brother so-and-so’ or ‘sister so-and-so’ used in this same scolding fashion, which betrays the intended manipulation. Going beyond ‘brother’ and ‘sister’ terms, there is the use of ‘Elder’, ‘Bishop’, and ‘President’, which combines identity replacement strategies with elitism and language loading, also standard mind control techniques. The church also encourages the members to become as little children and yield to the enticement of the holy spirit. Becoming as a child, innocent and devoid of critical thinking skills, is the perfect regression technique to displace adult logical thinking skills.

To answer your inquiry above, as I missed it the first go-round, re: “practicing Mormons to share what New Year’s wish they would like Ex-Mormons to live by in 2010.” – I wish Ex-Mormons to be free from suffering and to find happiness, in whatever they do… above all, to be true to themselves and their loved ones, above anyone else or any organization. I hope that they don’t all get grouped together in the singular “ex-mormon” category, because just like active members, atheists, and anyone else in or out of a religion, there are ALL kinds of people, and all kinds of post-Mormons. I hope they know that there ARE MANY people in the church–and out of it–who will love and respect them.

May we all be a little kinder, a little less aggressive, and a little more empathic with our fellow human beings.

Please, try to carry on a civil conversation without resorting to hyperbolic and ignorant attacks.

Regarding the church doing much good, which they do, some more information to help put the magnitude of their efforts in context is appropriate:

It is estimated that the LDS church, with a membership of thirteen million [http://www.mormonhaven.com/stats07.htm] collects about six billion dollars a year, and in the period of 1984-1997 donated $30.7 million to non-Mormon charity, or an average of $2.2 million per year, which is a few dollars per member per year. While humanitarian aid efforts from the church have increased in recent years, and is laudable, the percentage of net revenue and net assets being given back to humanity is still less than most US businesses. Says Richard Ostling: “I don’t know of any religion that is so invested in stocks, bonds, cattle ranching, etc.,” Elaborating on the preoccupation of the LDS with wealth, Heinerman and Shupe add:
“The much publicized “televangelists” of the “electronic church”, such as the Reverends Jerry Falwell, Oral Roberts, and Jim Baaker, are small time by comparison [to the LDS church]. Likewise the millions of dollars of self-appointed messiahs like Sun Myung Moon, much ballyhooed by the sensationalist press, are not even in the same league.”

Extraction of as much money as possible from the members is a well-known tactic for mind control organizations.

See also:
Steven Hassan, Releasing the Bonds, Empowering People to Think for Themselves, Freedom of Mind Press, 2000
Richard N. Ostling, Mormon America: The Power and the Promise
John Heinerman and Anson Shupe, The Mormon Corporate Empire, The Eye-Opening Report on the Church and Its Political and Financial Agenda, Beacon Press, 1985

I sure hope so Holden.