An ultimatum like this is ridiculous and no doubt would have put pressure on him and could have added to whatever was going in his head to possibly take her life. Who knows what else was said between the two in private.

I am amazed that in 2011 people are still stupid enough to buy into that nutty church. Maybe I should stick my head in a hat and conjure up a new cult where I’m the leader if people remain this stupid.

Because of my job (work around labor/delivery at hospital), I have been seriously irritated by the actions of LDS men, as far as how they treat their wives and children.  Many of them expect their wife to look after all the kids even though she just gave birth!!!  One man even took the tray of food that was delivered to his wife because he was hungry and said she could wait (Excuse me?!!!).  Another guy was obviously extremely disappointed that his wife just delivered “great, another girl” and didn’t even touch or look at baby, he just sighed and went over to lay down on the couch.  His wife looked like she was ready to cry.  I could go on and on.  Anyway, totally uncool and totally speaks volumes to people. 

Any time we let someone else determine if we are happy, we are allowing ourselves to be acted upon. Not what King Benjamin recommends.

Well said N.

I couldn’t agree more. If one is miserable in a marriage, staying married to become more miserable isn’t the answer.

What if my spouse once thought I was smart, but now thinks I’m ignorant.
What if my spouse once thought I was savvy, but now thinks I’m gullible.
What if my spouse once thought I was lucid, but now thinks I have psychotic episodes or hallucinations.
What if my spouse once thought I was dedicated to a greater cause, and now thinks I’m wasting all my time and energy.
What if my spouse once thought my family and friends were kind, but now thinks we’re hypocrites.
What if me and my spouse “signed on” to live a certain way of life, and my spouse now unilaterally changes it and/or works against what my life’s work and dedication is?

Why would I have to stay married to that person just to satisfy the likes of people who think I ought to be “more tolerant and understanding t a time when my spouse ‘needs it most’” and claim to know what God “would really want” for the marriage? Why would I have to stay married to satisfy thee sneering condescension of Ms. Meyers (“your precious ‘eternal’ temple marriage”)?

In short, why would I *have* to live with someone who at some level is opposed to what I am (and what my children are), and what I wish to be (and what my children wish to be), and how I (and my children) want to live *solely* based on the fact that my spouse *used to* be united with me and supportive of me?

It seems from many of the comments here that my spouse can say “I’m miserable because I’m living a lie, so I quit the church to be less miserable. *You* on the other hand, need to be miserable now and stick with me because *you* should be 100% supportive of me.”

Saying that someone is “a good husband and good father otherwise” is A) impossible to determine objectively, especially from the outside, and B) entirely missing the point. Part of being a “good spouse” *is* being united, IMO.

Susan Powell seems to have been an active member by all accounts. I’m sure that in cases like this, one of the first person a woman turns to is her Bishop. And I’m sure, 99% sure , that her Bishop would have counseled her to stay and not divorce.

So maybe the question we should be asking here is whether a Bishop is right and inspired to ALWAYS recommend staying in a marriage that is clearly falling apart, especially in these ‘Temple marriages’. Maybe the ‘get active or I’ll leave’ is actually a secondary question, not the main question or problem.

A more recent article does show that the marriage was in deep trouble during 2008 and she considered leaving back then:

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705353467/Friends-turn-over-e-mails-sent-by-Susan-Powell.html

Today she probably wished she had divorced him last year.

My husband left the church 20+ yrs ago. While church leaders do not advocate giving an ultimatum, there is an underlying mistrust–almost a hostility–of the disaffected. Church members and leaders give very little support for the believing spouse—at least the kind of support that strengthens the marriage. There’s lots of pity and lots of sympathy but no support to stay in the marriage. Members are saddened by a loss of testimony and think of the believing spouse as a martyr. They tend to help keep the believing spouse in the “grieving stage” and it’s difficult to move through all the other emotions towards acceptance. We aren’t given the tools we need to make a mixed-faith marriage work. All the lessons in RS/PH etc are geared for the ideal LDS marriage—in the temple and both spouses active. All the lessons on “strengthening the inactive” “when a child strays” “why people leave the church” are often just more salt in the wounds. The inactive is painted as sinful, rebellious or proud, a hopeless case of apostasy and all that’s left for us is to pray for them. So the believing spouse is left pretty much on his/her own trying to figure out how to navigate all the issues that arise when a spouse is disaffected.

When I finally did find my way not only to acceptance but also to realize that I still am married to a wonderful man and we have a happy marriage, members were horrified. How could I be happy being married to an apostate? How could I think he was a great husband when he was…apostate?!?

#30 Actually Joseph F. Smith said that very thing. I’ve attended a marriage class and firesides where that quote was given. I think it’s an awful quote. It gives members reason for not supporting the marriage—-why worry what happens to this marriage when something better is waiting for you in the next life. And it tells both husband and wife “all the work you’re putting into your marriage, all the love, patience and sacrifice you’re investing in each other really doesn’t matter because in the next life it’s all over and s/he gets someone better.”

No, church leaders may not advocate leaving a disaffected spouse but there is, at best, benign neglect, at worst, an intolerance for such marriages.

You have made me think more about this “choosing to believe” idea. While I obviously can’t put that on other people, I will consider it for myself… perhaps I have indeed “chosen” to believe without realizing it. We’ll see…

I just wrote another comment before this so just ignore it.

Oh…you might want to get some help with that comment-editing abuse problem too.

Good night!

Not necessarily. I am thinking of people who are adults and who have been taught truth about the nature of God and the fact that they are a child of God. Also, even with those truths being taught, if they come from a challenging backgroud, it can be difficult to overcome. I think once we have been taught the nature of who we are (a child of God), we have to take some accountablity for choosing to believe that. I realize that it depends on where we are at in life, our age and maturity, etc. too and you are right when you say it is much more complex and we are just simplifying it for discussion.

For me, there is a balance between taking accountability for our thoughts and behaviors and the influences on us that we don’t necessarily even recognize. I like to believe that as humans we are capable of changing our thought patterns and our lives for the better if we set our minds to it and faith is a part of this.

Sorry about the comment additions, I’m just never content, and I probably abuse the comment-editing.

I can see where you’re coming from with the teen you speak of. That makes sense to me.

Now go eat some pie! I already had like 5 slices today, on top of two dinners…

Take care.

Thanks for the follow-up. These are sticky issues because while we say “faith is personal” on one hand, we say “faith is a choice” on the other, which is, just by saying it, something we put on others. I admire your view, however, even if mine is somewhat different.

“how we view ourselves and how we view God (punitive or harsh compared to loving, merciful, forgiving) greatly influences our belief system and our ability to have faith. As I have thought more about it, this is what I mean when I say it is a choice.”

I think I get you on this, although we probably disagree somewhat on how much choice people actually have in terms of how they view themselves and God. I would guess that you view people as having more choice in this matter than I do. That being said, as I said to Jeff earlier, I do think that many of our daily choices influence us, oftentimes in ways we cannot foresee.

I suppose what I’m most comfortable with saying is “faith is a choice for Jen” and “faith was a gift to Adam, despite his choices” and “the loss of faith was not a choice for Adam’s friend.” I’m okay with that. If my friend claims to have lost his faith despite all his efforts to the contrary, I believe him, and I believe that God is aware of that, and for whatever reason, did not answer him right now. Beyond that is speculation. I also think that while much of this issue has been simplified down in order to be discussable, just like the causes of divorce it is much more complex.

Have a nice Christmas evening!