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	<title>Comments on: Virtual PH/RS Lesson:  Elder Eyring&#8217;s talk and the New Year</title>
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	<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/12/26/virtual-phrs-lesson-elder-eyrings-talk-and-the-new-year/</link>
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		<title>By: brjones</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/12/26/virtual-phrs-lesson-elder-eyrings-talk-and-the-new-year/#comment-125339</link>
		<dc:creator>brjones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Dec 2009 04:06:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=8814#comment-125339</guid>
		<description>MH, I actually completely agree with you. I think it&#039;s fair to say that much of the sorrow felt by family members is the result of bad decisions by someone. And I agree that elder Eyring wouldn&#039;t have a problem with the construct you put forth. Actually there&#039;s not another GA I reapect more than HBE. I just thought the idea was poorly presented.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MH, I actually completely agree with you. I think it&#8217;s fair to say that much of the sorrow felt by family members is the result of bad decisions by someone. And I agree that elder Eyring wouldn&#8217;t have a problem with the construct you put forth. Actually there&#8217;s not another GA I reapect more than HBE. I just thought the idea was poorly presented.</p>
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		<title>By: MH</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/12/26/virtual-phrs-lesson-elder-eyrings-talk-and-the-new-year/#comment-125311</link>
		<dc:creator>MH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Dec 2009 16:48:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=8814#comment-125311</guid>
		<description>brjones,

I want to highlight the quote by Eyring so we can talk about it.

&lt;blockquote&gt;That is because the greatest joys and the greatest sorrows we experience are in family relationships. The joys come from putting the welfare of others above our own. That is what love is. And the sorrow comes primarily from selfishness, which is the absence of love.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Now, let&#039;s look at your questions.  &lt;i&gt;is there greater sorrow than the untimely loss of a child? Whose selfishness is he saying is the cause of such sorrow?&lt;/i&gt;

Eyring is comparing the greatest joys and sorrows.  There can be many reasons for sorrow.  Many sorrows can be due to selfishness.  Brian David Mitchell&#039;s selfishness led him to rape a child.  Surely there was great sorrow in the Smart household, though none of the Smarts appeared to have problems with selfishness in relation to Elizabeth&#039;s kidnapping.  Deaths due to cancer are not due to selfishness either, unless one selfishly desires tobacco.  

To do a bit of parsing, I note that Eyring qualifies his statement with the word &lt;i&gt;primarily&lt;/i&gt;.  So, not all sorrows result from selfishness, though a great number of sorrows are caused by selfishness.  But I agree with you that a child afflicted with leukemia or autism causes families great sorrow, and selfishness has nothing to do with that.  I&#039;m sure Elder Eyring would agree.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>brjones,</p>
<p>I want to highlight the quote by Eyring so we can talk about it.</p>
<blockquote><p>That is because the greatest joys and the greatest sorrows we experience are in family relationships. The joys come from putting the welfare of others above our own. That is what love is. And the sorrow comes primarily from selfishness, which is the absence of love.</p></blockquote>
<p>Now, let&#8217;s look at your questions.  <i>is there greater sorrow than the untimely loss of a child? Whose selfishness is he saying is the cause of such sorrow?</i></p>
<p>Eyring is comparing the greatest joys and sorrows.  There can be many reasons for sorrow.  Many sorrows can be due to selfishness.  Brian David Mitchell&#8217;s selfishness led him to rape a child.  Surely there was great sorrow in the Smart household, though none of the Smarts appeared to have problems with selfishness in relation to Elizabeth&#8217;s kidnapping.  Deaths due to cancer are not due to selfishness either, unless one selfishly desires tobacco.  </p>
<p>To do a bit of parsing, I note that Eyring qualifies his statement with the word <i>primarily</i>.  So, not all sorrows result from selfishness, though a great number of sorrows are caused by selfishness.  But I agree with you that a child afflicted with leukemia or autism causes families great sorrow, and selfishness has nothing to do with that.  I&#8217;m sure Elder Eyring would agree.</p>
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		<title>By: brjones</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/12/26/virtual-phrs-lesson-elder-eyrings-talk-and-the-new-year/#comment-125305</link>
		<dc:creator>brjones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Dec 2009 10:57:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=8814#comment-125305</guid>
		<description>MH - I never meant to imply that selfish behaviors were not responsible for pain or sorrow in families. I would just take issue with the statement that the greatest sorrows eminate from selfishness. I think that&#039;s a very shortsighted and manipulative comment. It implies that sorrow can be avoided if we&#039;re not selfish, and that&#039;s not true.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MH &#8211; I never meant to imply that selfish behaviors were not responsible for pain or sorrow in families. I would just take issue with the statement that the greatest sorrows eminate from selfishness. I think that&#8217;s a very shortsighted and manipulative comment. It implies that sorrow can be avoided if we&#8217;re not selfish, and that&#8217;s not true.</p>
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		<title>By: Jen</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/12/26/virtual-phrs-lesson-elder-eyrings-talk-and-the-new-year/#comment-125301</link>
		<dc:creator>Jen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Dec 2009 06:47:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=8814#comment-125301</guid>
		<description>&quot;Many of these people shouldn’t be out on the street, but they shouldn’t be in jail either. They aren’t getting any better in jail–they’re getting worse.

I don’t know what to do with these types of people, because medically, we are stone age technologically on being able to diagnose and properly treat these people. The mental health system doesn’t seem capable of reforming them, and neither does the criminal justice system. There really is no adequate way to deal with them, and giving them second chances doesn’t seem appropriate.&quot;

MH-

Amen.  Addicts are the most frustrating people to know how to deal with because they will lie, cheat and steal from their own families and then expect them to support them, give them a place to live and forgive them over and over.  No one I know that has to deal with an addict daily knows what to do about it and it is very challenging.  It would be nice to have some answers that is for sure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Many of these people shouldn’t be out on the street, but they shouldn’t be in jail either. They aren’t getting any better in jail–they’re getting worse.</p>
<p>I don’t know what to do with these types of people, because medically, we are stone age technologically on being able to diagnose and properly treat these people. The mental health system doesn’t seem capable of reforming them, and neither does the criminal justice system. There really is no adequate way to deal with them, and giving them second chances doesn’t seem appropriate.&#8221;</p>
<p>MH-</p>
<p>Amen.  Addicts are the most frustrating people to know how to deal with because they will lie, cheat and steal from their own families and then expect them to support them, give them a place to live and forgive them over and over.  No one I know that has to deal with an addict daily knows what to do about it and it is very challenging.  It would be nice to have some answers that is for sure.</p>
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		<title>By: MH</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/12/26/virtual-phrs-lesson-elder-eyrings-talk-and-the-new-year/#comment-125300</link>
		<dc:creator>MH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Dec 2009 06:36:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=8814#comment-125300</guid>
		<description>brjones,

I think there are plenty of examples in which selfishness in families causes great sorrow.  When couples focus on careers, rather than on their marriages and raising children, they often divorce.  These divorces can be categorized as selfishness.  Other parents have been known to go to bars, leaving children unattended in cars.  These children become foster children due to the selfishness of parents who are so irresponsible.  Some parents are only interested in getting high, so they neglect kids.  Some women get pregnant to increase their welfare check.  Some men don&#039;t pay child support for children they&#039;ve fathered.  All of these can be great acts of selfishness, which damage future generations who follow in their parents footsteps.  I think this is the kind of selfishness Elder Eyring is talking about.  It can be a vicious circle, leaving sad and neglected children to fend for themselves.  Michael Oher&#039;s mother is a crack addict.  It&#039;s nice that he broke out of the cycle, but I&#039;m sure he still is saddened by the mess of his mother and her selfish addiction.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>brjones,</p>
<p>I think there are plenty of examples in which selfishness in families causes great sorrow.  When couples focus on careers, rather than on their marriages and raising children, they often divorce.  These divorces can be categorized as selfishness.  Other parents have been known to go to bars, leaving children unattended in cars.  These children become foster children due to the selfishness of parents who are so irresponsible.  Some parents are only interested in getting high, so they neglect kids.  Some women get pregnant to increase their welfare check.  Some men don&#8217;t pay child support for children they&#8217;ve fathered.  All of these can be great acts of selfishness, which damage future generations who follow in their parents footsteps.  I think this is the kind of selfishness Elder Eyring is talking about.  It can be a vicious circle, leaving sad and neglected children to fend for themselves.  Michael Oher&#8217;s mother is a crack addict.  It&#8217;s nice that he broke out of the cycle, but I&#8217;m sure he still is saddened by the mess of his mother and her selfish addiction.</p>
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		<title>By: MH</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/12/26/virtual-phrs-lesson-elder-eyrings-talk-and-the-new-year/#comment-125298</link>
		<dc:creator>MH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Dec 2009 06:26:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=8814#comment-125298</guid>
		<description>I think that drug abuse and violent sexual behavior fit a different category all together, and these people probably aren&#039;t subject to the Prodigal Son parable.  I believe that these types of criminals are afflicted with addictive mental disorders that we are just beginning to learn about.  I&#039;ve just begun working in the field of biostatistics; I had an interview to work with county government assessing mental health treatments for drug/alcohol addictions in the county prison system, and I was aware of another study by the University of Utah which was trying to track mental health treatments in jails.  This particular researcher said that in the United States, the jail system IS the de facto mental health system.  Many of these people shouldn&#039;t be out on the street, but they shouldn&#039;t be in jail either.  They aren&#039;t getting any better in jail--they&#039;re getting worse.

I don&#039;t know what to do with these types of people, because medically, we are stone age technologically on being able to diagnose and properly treat these people. The mental health system doesn&#039;t seem capable of reforming them, and neither does the criminal justice system.  There really is no adequate way to deal with them, and giving them second chances doesn&#039;t seem appropriate.

I&#039;m not a Huckabee fan either, though occasionally I do hear things I like (more often, I hear things I don&#039;t like.)  I think he has a point that &quot;because he was a young black kid, he got 108 years&quot;, but there is also a point that because he was probably raised in gangs and embraced a culture of violence, he shouldn&#039;t have been on the street.  I think this is a balancing act that is hard to balance.  Ed Smart treated Brian David Mitchell much the same way that Sean Tuohy did with Michael Oher.  In the former situation, Mitchell kidnaps and rapes his daughter.  In the latter, Oher turns his life around, becomes the only one of his former friends who graduates from high school, plays in the NFL, and people celebrate the Tuohy family, while telling Ed Smart he was stupid to try to help a transient.  For every success story of Michael Oher and Jean Valjean (Les Miserables), you have stories of this Clemmons cop-killer, and Brian David Mitchell.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that drug abuse and violent sexual behavior fit a different category all together, and these people probably aren&#8217;t subject to the Prodigal Son parable.  I believe that these types of criminals are afflicted with addictive mental disorders that we are just beginning to learn about.  I&#8217;ve just begun working in the field of biostatistics; I had an interview to work with county government assessing mental health treatments for drug/alcohol addictions in the county prison system, and I was aware of another study by the University of Utah which was trying to track mental health treatments in jails.  This particular researcher said that in the United States, the jail system IS the de facto mental health system.  Many of these people shouldn&#8217;t be out on the street, but they shouldn&#8217;t be in jail either.  They aren&#8217;t getting any better in jail&#8211;they&#8217;re getting worse.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know what to do with these types of people, because medically, we are stone age technologically on being able to diagnose and properly treat these people. The mental health system doesn&#8217;t seem capable of reforming them, and neither does the criminal justice system.  There really is no adequate way to deal with them, and giving them second chances doesn&#8217;t seem appropriate.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not a Huckabee fan either, though occasionally I do hear things I like (more often, I hear things I don&#8217;t like.)  I think he has a point that &#8220;because he was a young black kid, he got 108 years&#8221;, but there is also a point that because he was probably raised in gangs and embraced a culture of violence, he shouldn&#8217;t have been on the street.  I think this is a balancing act that is hard to balance.  Ed Smart treated Brian David Mitchell much the same way that Sean Tuohy did with Michael Oher.  In the former situation, Mitchell kidnaps and rapes his daughter.  In the latter, Oher turns his life around, becomes the only one of his former friends who graduates from high school, plays in the NFL, and people celebrate the Tuohy family, while telling Ed Smart he was stupid to try to help a transient.  For every success story of Michael Oher and Jean Valjean (Les Miserables), you have stories of this Clemmons cop-killer, and Brian David Mitchell.</p>
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		<title>By: brjones</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/12/26/virtual-phrs-lesson-elder-eyrings-talk-and-the-new-year/#comment-125296</link>
		<dc:creator>brjones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Dec 2009 05:25:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=8814#comment-125296</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve always liked elder eyring, but his statement that the greatest sorrows in our family relationships result from selfishness is, frankly, absurd. Having children means a life of worry, pain and sorrows, as well as joy and happiness. We&#039;ll feel intense sorrow when our children suffer or are hurt by others. And is there greater sorrow than the untimely loss of a child?  Whose selfishness is he saying is the cause of such sorrow?  The comment doesn&#039;t make much sense to me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve always liked elder eyring, but his statement that the greatest sorrows in our family relationships result from selfishness is, frankly, absurd. Having children means a life of worry, pain and sorrows, as well as joy and happiness. We&#8217;ll feel intense sorrow when our children suffer or are hurt by others. And is there greater sorrow than the untimely loss of a child?  Whose selfishness is he saying is the cause of such sorrow?  The comment doesn&#8217;t make much sense to me.</p>
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		<title>By: Jen</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/12/26/virtual-phrs-lesson-elder-eyrings-talk-and-the-new-year/#comment-125293</link>
		<dc:creator>Jen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Dec 2009 23:12:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=8814#comment-125293</guid>
		<description>If there are two types of people I don&#039;t trust they are drug addicts and sex offenders.  I have had to deal heavily with drug addicts and the rates of sex offenders repeating sex offenses is so high it is scary.  I think we can forgive people, but we definitely don&#039;t have to give them our trust again or let them have responsibility over children when they can do irreparable damage.  Having had to deal with people that have been given chance after chance after chance and abused it and didn&#039;t care, I think there comes a point where chances have to run out.  The Lord told Nephi to separate from Laman and Lemuel after they received years of chances to make better choices. Nephi had to put up with a whole lot in the meantime.  I do think that the Lord has His limits with His children, He just gives them a lot of chances first, but when they continually throw opportunities away, He has to say it is enough and it is ok to leave or to separate yourself from the situation.  When a person is abusing drugs or has sexually abused someone, trust is gone and everything has to be supervised, otherwise the risks are too great.  Those are what I consider second, third, fourth chances...supervised time, NOT time alone with others or the same privileges they had before.  Once those types of decisions are made, you give up certain privileges and that is just the way it is.  Anyone who has had to deal with people who do these types of things know that after your money is stolen, your children are put in danger, prescription fraud over and over, etc. you don&#039;t ever give unsupervised chances again....ever.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If there are two types of people I don&#8217;t trust they are drug addicts and sex offenders.  I have had to deal heavily with drug addicts and the rates of sex offenders repeating sex offenses is so high it is scary.  I think we can forgive people, but we definitely don&#8217;t have to give them our trust again or let them have responsibility over children when they can do irreparable damage.  Having had to deal with people that have been given chance after chance after chance and abused it and didn&#8217;t care, I think there comes a point where chances have to run out.  The Lord told Nephi to separate from Laman and Lemuel after they received years of chances to make better choices. Nephi had to put up with a whole lot in the meantime.  I do think that the Lord has His limits with His children, He just gives them a lot of chances first, but when they continually throw opportunities away, He has to say it is enough and it is ok to leave or to separate yourself from the situation.  When a person is abusing drugs or has sexually abused someone, trust is gone and everything has to be supervised, otherwise the risks are too great.  Those are what I consider second, third, fourth chances&#8230;supervised time, NOT time alone with others or the same privileges they had before.  Once those types of decisions are made, you give up certain privileges and that is just the way it is.  Anyone who has had to deal with people who do these types of things know that after your money is stolen, your children are put in danger, prescription fraud over and over, etc. you don&#8217;t ever give unsupervised chances again&#8230;.ever.</p>
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		<title>By: hawkgrrrl</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/12/26/virtual-phrs-lesson-elder-eyrings-talk-and-the-new-year/#comment-125292</link>
		<dc:creator>hawkgrrrl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Dec 2009 22:38:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=8814#comment-125292</guid>
		<description>Much as I dislike Huckabee for his populism, anti-Mormonism, and unsportsmanlike campaigning in the election, in the case described I might have done the same thing. I&#039;m a sucker for second chance stories. I think the best we can do is to develop and apply our discernment as well as we know how (based on our experience), and to hope for the best in human nature.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Much as I dislike Huckabee for his populism, anti-Mormonism, and unsportsmanlike campaigning in the election, in the case described I might have done the same thing. I&#8217;m a sucker for second chance stories. I think the best we can do is to develop and apply our discernment as well as we know how (based on our experience), and to hope for the best in human nature.</p>
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