Thanks, it’s always nice to be appreciated, especially by you.

#92-

Oh Dex, take a valium! I think you need to realize that there are people who don’t necessarily feel this way, like me. I don’t feel like the LDS church is for everyone. Everyone doesn’t want the same things in life. What makes me happy doesn’t necessarily make someone else happy. I know people in life who work really hard at everything they do and others who try to slide by and take the easiest possible route in everything they do. I don’t think being a member of the church is easy. It takes a lot of work and sacrifice and to many, the benefits and rewards are worth it, but to others, it is not worth their time or effort or they want to put as little into it as possible. For example, they may do as little as possible to maintain a certain reputation, but their heart isn’t really in it. They may eventually give up on it completely because it just isn’t worth their time. The commitment of a member of the LDS church is monumental and it is daily, not just on Sunday. There are a lot of people who just don’t have any desire to commit to something to that degree and I don’t think it would make them happy if they tried to do so.

I think agency is critical in this life and I have no problem with the LDS church working for me and not someone else. I don’t automatically assume that I am going someplace better than people who don’t believe in the church or who have left it either. Life is complicated, people are complicated and God is fully aware of all of that. When we die, I think we will be with people who are like us because that is where we are most comfortable and that is what will make us the happiest. I don’t think it is as much about God judging us as it is being where we are comfortable. Will He really need to say anything? I don’t think so, we already know our own thoughts, intentions and what we truly desire and I think it will be more than clear as we recall all the things that we did and wanted in this life where we belong in the next. Also, I think unless we were a horrific monster in this life, it will much better for all of us there, LDS or not.

I have no doubt that the sectarian aspect of Church culture will either diminish in importance in coming years, or the Church itself will.

What Cowboy (82) said. I’d change his last line to “good for spirituality but bad for sectarianism.”

I can live with that.

I don’t think there’s any better (written) example of a “believing heart” than that. Amen.

“Like you (#69), non-whining believers are among the best people I know, probably at or near the absolute top of the list. (Hi, Bjorg M.!) But other NWBs can be royal pains in the okole — arrogant, unreasoning, hostile, and intolerant. When “faith” is harnessed in service of sectarianism, nothing good results.”

I agree completely with this statement. That is why I believe I only know two people who REALLY don’t whine and REALLY live what they believe. There are a lot of yackers that say they believe but yet have very little to show for it in their daily living. I know a lot more of the NWB’s that are royal pains than those that aren’t.

I am a seeker of truth and I spent many hours seeking after God when I had an incredible challenge hit me several years ago. For some reason, He answered me and I was able to understand things that I didn’t before. Things that have carried me through this difficult time in my life and things that had I not known, I wouldn’t have been willing to do what I am doing today. I am one of those people who are not willing to go the cheap route of just going with the cultural flow, so I understand what you are saying. Interestingly, I have felt myself more separated from the culture of Mormonism and more bound to God as I have come to know Him better. I do believe that the church is full of truth and I want it a part of my life, but I also see many things that I didn’t see before when I was just floating along. I know without a doubt that God is there and I know that He has answered my prayers. He hasn’t ever necessarily came out and said to me “the LDS church is true” or “this is the place you need to be”, He has just answered me when I have ask questions about my life. I haven’t felt that the church isn’t true, although I have questioned JS and his women issues, etc. But, in my questioning, I have come to a place where I know that all things cannot be answered here and I’m ok with that. I feel like I am a much better person than I was 5 years ago because I have learned to be much more compassionate and loving and I attribute that to my temple attendance and time spent there communing with God, receiving answers pertaining to my life and understanding what I need to do. In other words, the LDS religion has been a vehicle that has brought me closer to God and it works for me. I respect those who can’t rectify the issues they have with it and I try really hard not to judge but to understand. I find myself vacillating between wanting to stand up for the God that I love (yet get angry and frustrated with as well) and just listening and trying to understand those who don’t feel the same about Him.

Anyway, I have a child who needs me so I better stop yacking!

I feel like the safety jumping on the pile after the play’s been blown dead, but here’s my $.02:

What Cowboy (82) said. I’d change his last line to “good for spirituality but bad for sectarianism.”

Like you (#69), non-whining believers are among the best people I know, probably at or near the absolute top of the list. (Hi, Bjorg M.!) But other NWBs can be royal pains in the okole — arrogant, unreasoning, hostile, and intolerant. When “faith” is harnessed in service of sectarianism, nothing good results.

It seems to have been different during the 1950s, when my parents grew up, but in the era of Ezra Taft Benson’s Book of Mormon revival, it is the Church itself that raised the possibility of the Church not being true. By exhorting young people to read, ponder, and pray about the Book of Mormon, and obtain a witness of its truth, the Church inescapably presents at least the theoretical possibility that the Church might not be what it claims to be. Most conscientious young Mormons (those who don’t just chuck religion altogether and join the largely unreflective secular youth culture) get Moroni Ten-Foured and live happily ever after. But others don’t. They know it, and they know any God worth caring about knows it. They are not inclined to go the cheap route of just going with the cultural flow. If there truly is anything to be found like “pure intelligence” or the peace that passeth all understanding, that’s what we’re looking for, and we’re not going to pretend that having our emotions manipulated by the LDS Motion Picture Studio is as good as it gets. It’s either the for-real Sacred Grove, or we’ll have to settle for the God of the philosophers.

I have had too many people tell me “I’ve really known all along.” If what I’ve “known all along” is all they have, then their claims to “know” are useless.

#82-Well, I don’t necessarily agree that it works against the single true church notion ONLY because of our belief in the life after and the work that can and will be done there for those who didn’t come to know the full truth here. I really think God is a lot more relaxed and liberal than we think and that His plan is working out just fine. If He was so uptight and worried about everyone getting the truth in mortality, He would have done things a lot differently. I believe we will be pleasantly surprised out how well God has planned for His children to receive what they need to be happy. Maybe that sounds polyannish, but that is the God I have come to know through prayer and many different life experiences. I believe He is a good Father and that more than anything He wants us to love one another and serve one another. When we do this, it changes people and lives for the better.

Jen:

I can accept this idea, in fact it tends make a lot of sense that God could only hold us responsible for beliefs and actions we were fairly taught. The problem I have with this notion Jen, is that it works against the notion of a single true Church, with necessary ordinances, etc. If God is going to teach us as you suggest, through the belief systems we were born into, what then is the purpose behind having a true Church? More to the point, if he is going to lead us in different directions, how can we know that we belong to the true Church, and not just the convenient Church for his purposes. I think your suggestion is good for spirituality but bad for religion.

My parents were raised very similar to you, except I don’t know if you had to go through the hell of dealing with nuns in Catholic school. I have heard many stories about that for sure!

So, my question to you is how did you get to the Mormon faith then? Why are you here if you were raised Roman Catholic?

brjones-

I have read enough of your comments to understand you pretty well. I know that going into discussions with you always leads us back to the same place….agreeing to disagree. I think it is important that we all live what we believe or don’t believe. It is important to you not to believe in God and for me it is important to acknowledge Him in all I do. Our fundamental differences don’t allow too much discussion because it always comes back to that. I believe and you don’t and no matter how many different ways you try to discuss it, that is the bottom line for both of us and we aren’t changing our minds. Hey, at least we can say that we stick to our convictions!

#74 – Just as an example, my father was always very interested in politics, and he presented everything in very black and white terms. Well when I got old enough to think about issues for myself I realized that things he presented as absolute fact, were actually very skewed by his personal opinions. Nothing wrong with that, but he never made a point of letting us know that this was just his opinion. His opinion was often presented as fact. I think this is very analogous to religion. As a child, when I’m told that god absolutely lives and the LDS church is absolutely his church, why would I question? When I get old enough to think about things for myself, I may realize that that was just someone’s opinion, and I want to find out for myself. To me, everything that I “knew” prior to that point is not really knowledge.

#76 – I agree that we can easily talk ourselves into a state of disbelief, just as we can easily talk ourselves into a state of belief. I agree that we have been given many things such as the scriptures, the gospel teachings, the guidance of the brethren, community, fellowship, etc. At the end of the day, though, those things don’t make the church true and they don’t make god exist. I’m not saying it’s not or that he doesn’t, I’m just saying that knowledge of or belief in god or the church must come independently of the trappings thereof. This is a beef I have with the system that religion uses to perpetuate its existence and truthfulness. In essence it says “look at all these wonderful things. How could we have all these wonderful things if god weren’t really with us?” I do not find this to be compelling in the least. It’s circular logic. All the knowledge and teachings in the world are not worth anything if they’re not from god. Giving your kids a silver platterful of teachings and then telling them not to be too ungrateful as to seek for a personal sign from god seems to me to be putting the cart WAY in front of the horse.

I hope my comments don’t seem flippant or critical of you, Jen. I’m addressing these things to myself much more than you.

I was raised Roman Catholic, and was taught to pray to St. Anthony whenever something went missing and to believe that he would help me find it. I prayed to him multiple times a day.

I was taught to place a statue of Mary in my window to keep the rain away.

I was taught to pray to Mary, because she could intercede for me to Christ. I was taught that it was common to receive visions and visitations from Mary the Mother of God.

I was taught that my dead ancestors were in purgatory watching over my every action, and that they could also intercede on my behalf to God, so I should be good and be aware that they were watching me always (Imagine how I felt as an adolescent when my grandfather died. Everytime I got undressed, I was worried grandpa could see me!!!)

My parents and grandparents and great-grandparents ad nauseum believed all of these things strongly and taught them to me as a child. I don’t necessarily think their teaching them to me was God revealing Himself to me, or that I should have persisted in belief in them when things continued un-found, it rained, or I didn’t receive visitations from Mary.

My computer is having issues because it is installing updates. I wrote this earlier and it wouldn’t submit so I am submitting it now.

This is one thing I am trying to teach my children. They are being given so much that they have to be careful not to take it for granted. There are people that join the church as adults that would have treasured knowing that God is their Father and that they are a child of God as a child or youth. Those of us who have been handed all this knowledge on a silver platter sometimes feel we need God to make Himself known to us in a way that is undeniable or else we won’t believe, yet we have been surrounded by His teachings our entire life. My point is that I think we can easily talk ourselves into a state of disbelief because we take for granted all the knowledge we have and expect grander things, when God is giving us more than we can possibly imagine already

“There are many things I believed that my parents or other authority figures told me, that have turned out to be either non-existent, or fundamentally different from what was presented to me.”

I’m just curious, besides belief in Santa and God, what else are you referring to?

I already thought about this and I believe that what we are given in life is what we are accountable for in relation to knowledge or lack thereof concerning God. I take accountability for what I have been taught and approach God with that belief system. God cannot expect anything more from His children but their best with what He has given them. So, when I refer to my concept of God, it is the same one that all of us here at Mormon Matters have been exposed to and taught so that is my reference point. My responsibility lies within what I am given and I leave the rest to God.

I think it is a stretch to compare belief in God to Santa Claus. God is someone that many of us were taught of daily and we prayed to Him in reverence daily as well. We learned about talking to Him about our problems and that through the Savior we can return to live with our Father in Heaven. I was taught that Santa, on the other hand, comes out once a year after fattening up to bring us gifts to celebrate the birth of the Savior. I don’t remember ever being taught to pray to him or being taught that he was anything more than that and it certainly wasn’t someone I thought of on a daily basis.