- When people make comparisons with the area around the Vatican in order to justify the area of downtown SLC, they are completely off-base. The Vatican was essentially a world capital at one point. Many of the buildings are vestiges from that time. The whole idea of that type of build-up has also been denounced by many LDS leaders over the years as well, as a harlot, with fine things, etc. Yet we’re doing the same.

- Regardless of semantics as to “commercial” money or “tithing” money, it leaves a very bad taste in my mouth. The budget in our ward for many programs was cut 80% for 2010. For our monthly combined activity, we have $25. For a youth conference, we have just over $1000. And this is for over 100 kids. We can’t even buy the kids a drink each month without breaking our budget. Yet somehow the Church can find $2 billion for a mall. For tens of millions to buy some parking lots from Mr. Holding.

- Anyone can play with semantics, like what the definition of “is” is. Anyone can try to split hairs, etc. I just know that if the Church is trying to get away from the image that people try to portray of them being a corporation first and foremost, they are doing a terrible job in my mind, and this is from someone speaking as an active member.

Alice Cooper was born Vincent Damon Furnier in Detroit, Michigan, the son of Ella Mae and Ether Moroni Furnier. His grandfather, Thurman Sylvester Furnier, was an apostle in The Church of Jesus Christ based in Monongahela, Pennsylvania. Vincent Furnier’s father was an Elder in The Church of Jesus Christ.

Now, you can see some Book of Mormon sounding names and priesthood offices. This Church of Jesus Christ is a “relative” of our church. Sidney Rigdon broke away following the death of Joseph Smith and started his own Church of Jesus Christ of the Children of Zion near Pittsburgh, PA. The church floundered after about 10 years. William Bickerton started a new church, and was an ardent follower of Rigdon, and this church is referred to as the Bickertonites, or the Church of Jesus Christ. It is still in existence today. The first 3 prophets of the Bickertonite church are Joseph Smith, Sidney Rigdon, and William Bickerton.

Alice Cooper claims no religious affiliation, though he is probably quite familiar with the Book of Mormon. He was never “Mormon”, but definitely grew up and understood the Book of Mormon, and probably grew up in in a pretty religious Restoration branch family.

I believe I’m guilty of jumping to a conclusion based on seeing your name and then reading between the lines in your comment. Please accept my apology for prejudging your intent.

The Deseret News obviously sees the mall as a positive for the church. I don’t, but that’s just me…

I don’t disagree with your comment about the world outside of Utah caring if the church builds a mall or not. I’m sure “they” don’t. If someone were investigating the church though, and discovered this large expenditure, would they feel like they were considering joining a church or a large commercial enterprise that fronts as a church?

After visiting Europe, I was amazed at the amount of money the Catholic and Greek Orthodox churches had spent on churches, cathedrals, living quarters for monks and nuns, and so on. The difference of course is that all this is still in the name of God and for Him. (At least they seem to believe that.)

The City Creek Mall illustrates the difference between us and many Christen churches. The Lutheran church near me pays their clergy, takes care of the utilities, rents the hall, buys the coffee and donuts for meetings, and at the end of the year (if they have a surplus) finds a worthy charity to donate any leftover funds to. They start the next year and every year on faith that God will provide.

When I balance this simple faith with a corporation that prides itself on its financial freedom and its ability to invest huge sums of money in commercial enterprises, I think it sends the wrong message.

Of course I don’t believe the Mormon or the Lutheran church is “God’s on and only true church” so perhaps my comparison is mute…

“You see I actually read the article in the Deseret News and simply commented on the mall because they brought it up. You put it in your list as well, but I get taken to task for stating my opinion about it. Wow, that’s fair…”

Help me out here. “My list?” You mean my list of two of your points that I chose to respond to? Yeah, I put it in my “list” of things I responded to because it was one of the two things I chose to uh.. respond to. I took you “to task for stating [your] opinion”? Huh? I thought I just responded to your opinion by expressing my own. You made some interesting points; I chose to respond to a couple of those points for which I have a different opinion, and thought I might have something to add. Just like you responded to the original post and the DN article because you thought you might have something to add. Isn’t that generally the manner in which humans have a conversion? What might I have said that could be construed as unfair?

Brief threadjack warning:

The night before I was supposed to depart for the MTC, one of my best friends called me from his mission in the eastern states. We talked for about two hours, during the course of which he related this common “dry-cleaners” story to me. When I arrived in the mission field, mid-western states, an Elder related the same story to me with slight variation, namely that the alleged event took place in our mission. A short while later it was Christmas and I was making my routine Christmas calls, so I called my Cousin who was serving in New York. He and I talked for a while, and I decided to tell him how my friend related a story that seemed unbelievable to me, which was then respun with a mid-western twist by the Elders in my mission. I then qualified the story as a Mormon folktale. His response to me was icing on the cake. He said, “yeah I know missionaries like to tell stupid and unbelievable stories, but you should be aware that this story is actually true, because it happened in my mission”. I get the impression that this one has been making the rounds for a long time.

I agree!!

#61 Mike S

Good question. I’m trying to better understand the various aspects your questions brings up. I’m not sure if we’re near the end of vigorous church growth or just at the beginning of remarkable growth in the church. In the short run I think we’ve got problems, in the long run the possibility exist for the church to explode in growth in countries like China.

I worry about the Gentile nations, especially America.

I talked with a missionary on Sunday and he said that Elder Holland was in Europe and told them that the work in that part of the world is just getting started.

On thing I do know—it wonderful having the companionship of the Holy Ghost.

I’ve been very busy during the holidays so I haven’t been spending as much time in the bloggernacle as usual. This will continue into the new year. I have several business interest that need more of my attention. This economy is something else.

I’m looking forward to seeing more your post.

How do you reconcile the “danger of disappearing” with all of the “stone of Daniel” comments we heard not too long ago when the Church was predicted to have 270+ million members by 2050 or 2070?

I know there are many people who compare gay marriage to the priesthood ban. Perhaps it is a valid comparison, perhaps it is not. I think it is interesting to look at the ERA amendment. The church played a pivotal role in it’s defeat, and some 30 year later, there doesn’t seem to be any momentum to revive it. I wonder if gay marriage will go the way of the ERA amendment. Time will give us the answer. Proponents of ERA thought it was just a matter of time for it’s passage, but those people were apparently wrong.

Jared, how come you never commented on my Christmas posts or Priesthood lesson? I thought you would enjoy those kind of posts, since they deal much more with the scriptures, yet you always seem to stay away. I would expect scripture quoting to be more appropriate there, not on a post which deals more with current events and perception of the church. You’ve said in the past that you think the scriptures aren’t brought up here enough–yet when I bring them up, you stay away. You didn’t comment on Jeff’s Old Testament posts either.

My understanding of the verses of scripture I used in #17 is that some members of the church, as well as the majority of America will reject the gospel.

I think it is wonderful that the church has as much respect and influence as they do. We are led by prophets. But in the long run it doesn’t appear that the Gentiles will embrace the restored gospel.

28 And when the times of the Gentiles is come in, a light shall break forth among them that sit in darkness, and it shall be the fulness of my gospel;
29 But they receive it not; for they perceive not the light, and they turn their hearts from me because of the precepts of men.
30 And in that generation shall the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
31 And there shall be men standing in that generation, that shall not pass until they shall see an overflowing scourge; for a desolating sickness shall cover the land.
32 But my disciples shall stand in holy places, and shall not be moved; but among the wicked, men shall lift up their voices and curse God and die.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 45:28 – 32)

I agree with this perspective. In the first century+ of the Church, the priesthood ban was in line with much of the racist attitudes prevalent in the country. As society evolved, the Church either had to change its policy or else become increasingly seen as out-of-touch. It also took some of the older generation dying away.

I predict the same thing with Prop 8 issues. Attitudes towards this are also very much on generational lines. The overall net change in “influence” may be somewhat neutral on the issue, but amongst the future of the Church (young people) they may be losing influence. I don’t think it’s just gay marriage, however. Things as irrelevant to our eternal salvation as tattoos or the number of earrings someone has have been elevated to touchstones, as issues to see how well someone is “following the prophet”. I think this is a similar thing – to the older generation, they nodded their heads in assent at those “terrible” looking things. Among the younger generation, where tattoos or multiple earrings are extremely common, etc., it’s just one more unneeded barrier between youth and what really matters – one’s personal relationship with Christ.

When the Church looks at the inactivity rate among young adults, and the possible lack of influence in that area, instead of yet another program or something, they should instead look at policies peripheral to the gospel. Perhaps there needs to be a “youth representative” in the highest councils of the Church.

Who knows?