(Mormon Matters gives a hearty “Welcome!” to our latest Permablogger: Joanna Brooks. You can read more about Joanna on her web site, and on her new blog “Ask Mormon Girl“. Joanna is head of the English Department at SDSU, and has recently been featured on Radiowest and writes occasionally for Religion Dispatches. Welcome again, Joanna! So happy to have you aboard!!!!)
So, Mormon Matters readers, there I was: my askmormongirl@gmail.com account barely three months old, when it arrived from uncharted reaches of the internet universe–a bonafide query about the Mormon world I know and love.
“Hello Mrs. Brooks,
I have a 16 year old mormon friend, and I am attracted to her. I am 15, and I am not a Mormon. I am, however, a Christian. She knows that I like her, and I think that she likes me, too. I don’t know what I should do, because both of those things can create some problems if I ask her out. I turn 16 in April. Should I wait until then to ask her out? Any advice that you can give me would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
L.M.”
Now, readers, you may imagine how it felt to be the recipient of such important questions straight from such a young and tender heart. And who exactly am I to answer such a query? A lifelong member of the Mormon Church. A profesional scholar of religion and American culture. A writer. A Mormon woman writer who has gotten used to being the only Mormon woman in the room, in the company of non-Mormon people with a thousand burning questions they never dared ask before. A bossy older sister. A cosmic mother hen. And, could it be, as they would say in the Yiddish of my husband’s grandmother, a would-be yenta: an absolute sucker for the prospect of greater ecumenical understanding, teenaged love, and exceptionally thoughtful fifteen year old boys who research the faith traditions of their would-be crushes on the internet.
So I took a deep breath. Click-click-click went the keyboard. And here is what I said:
Dear L.M.:
First, let me congratulate you on your excellent taste in women. Granted, I’m biased, but I do think most Mormon girls are pretty awesome.
Let me also congratulate you on your sensitivity to the beliefs of the Mormon Girl you’re crushing on. It’s true that Mormon kids are counseled not to date until they are 16 and are strongly encouraged to date within the faith. That’s because marrying another faithful Mormon in the Mormon temple is a Big Deal in Mormonism.
But let’s not get ahead of ourselves. You’re 15. She’s 16. No one is talking about marriage. You’re not even sure she likes you yet. So I’m going to give you the advice my Mormon youth leaders gave me and my friends when we were just pimply MIA Maids (What’s a MIA Maid? you ask: Hang out with Mormons long enough and you’ll find out). Two words: Group Date.
Especially if you live outside the Book-of-Mormon belt (and my guess is that you do), Mormon kids tend to run together in groups. On Friday and Saturday nights, they come up with nutty schemes for fun without sex, drugs, and alcohol. Which does not mean they are totally tame. My brother’s friends, for example, set fire to couches.
So, LM, listen: find the group of Mormon kids your Mormon Girl runs with, and get yourself invited to their next weekend couch-fire, or late night Taco Bell run, or toilet-papering expedition, or Wii tournament. Believe, me, they’d be pleased as red punch to have a nice Christian boy like you along for the ride: they’d think they were doing missionary work. And while you’re hanging out in a nice big group, surely you and your Mormon Girl will get to know each other better . . .
Who knows what will happen from there. Rumor has it some Mormon girls do marry outside the faith and live happily ever after anyways.
Have fun and keep me posted.
Yours truly,
Ask Mormon Girl
And so, there it is. The mailbag is open at askmormongirl@gmail.com. Tune in next week to see how I’ll answer LM’s follow-up query: ”What are some of the differences between Mormon and Christian beliefs that I should know about? The last thing that I want is to offend someone, especially such a nice girl as her.”
Man, I love this kid.
Great post. I look forward to reading more of your posts and your blog.
Could you be more condescending? Is it possible? “Mormon kids tend to run together in groups. On Friday and Saturday nights, they come up with nutty schemes for fun without sex, drugs, and alcohol.” Everyone else there, all those slutty 15 and 16 year olds out there are all sexing, drugging, and alcoholing it up.
So, I guess, in a way, your answer was perfectly correct, as its tone, if properly understood, was spot-on.
While I would not be a uncouth as Agnes, I would also classify your response as slightly condescending in its tone. He already identified himself as a Christian which would allow us to assume he maintains the same standards. Your response seems to lump him in with a general stereotype of teens without moral standards since he is not a member. I know that not how you meant it but that is how it comes across. Probably because of your sheltered mormon upbringing in the mountain west or California which does not fully comprehend or respect other faiths or lifestyles. NOTE: I am being sarcastic in similarly generalizing on Joanna’s upbringing. So please don’t accuse me of the same sin. Thanks.
Oh come on. Condescending? I don’t think my daughters friends would have thought it was condescending at all. I think they would have appreciated it. Telling a houseguest “the kids go to bed at 9 and we try to keep it down after that” doesn’t imply that you expected him to make a lot of noise.
I thought the response was great.
@Agnes and @Michael,
I totally didn’t get any of that from her answer. She just stated that most Mormon kids at that age don’t do the sex, drugs, alcohol thing. It seemed to me to actually imply that the guy might like the group dating scene because he would feel more comfortable because of the standards that (most likely) will be kept during the night.
And on another note, I find it odd how many people who complain about Mormons on this site (thinking mostly back to the Shadow Mormon Movie’s comments) seem to show many of the same characteristics that they (sometimes correctly) identify in Mormons. Can’t we all just get along?
Wow – I thought Ask’s response was appropriate to the questioner. As a Mormon who never dated Mormons until I was in Utah and actually around other Mormons, I have to say this is the first helpful explanation for Mormon teen dating behavior that made sense to me. Teen dating behavior where I grew up was more like adult dating behavior with pimples and awkwardness added. Mormon dating behavior is almost manic by comparison – and it makes sense that it’s caused by the desire to avoid sexually charged situations while still having fun. So, there’s a lot of distracting stuff going on in these group dates. It is weird for an outsider first experiencing it.
I absolutely disagree that Ask’s tone was condescending. Perhaps flippant. But I didn’t think she was making an indictment of all non-Mormons. Non-Mormon dating is not like the group dating I witnessed in Utah. Even good “Christian” kids trying to remain chaste did not do big group dates with goofy activities as an alternative where I grew up, and most of the kids were Christians who were trying (mostly unsuccessfully) to save themselves for marriage.
Perhaps slightly condescending, but I would say that the open and positive approach to the entire response overrides any technical ignorance. I think was a great reply.
I liked Ask’s response. It was funny. It let him know breifly that he wouldn’t be finding any of that with the Mormons (though I’m sure that wasn’t on his mind), and was said in a conversational tone that opened up lines of communication.
I’m quite impressed at how you handled that!
”What are some of the differences between Mormon and Christian beliefs that I should know about?”
Now there’s a question.
I think we need to calm down. JB’s comment on what mormons don’t do was not an indictment of all non-mormons. If I say Hawkgrrl doesn’t annoy me that doesn’t mean I’m saying everyone else in the world does annoy me. Relax, people.
@Holden Caulfield
So much. The LDS’ fundamental belief in who Jesus Christ is is appallingly different from that of Christianity. The belief in restoration after Christ’s return, belief in original sin, belief in grace…
Joanna-
“Which does not mean they are totally tame. My brother’s friends, for example, set fire to couches.”
I’m with you on finding fun things to do that don’t involve alcohol, drugs or sex, but I have to disagree that setting fire to couches is a good idea. I don’t think fire is something that should be used as a form of entertainment. It is one thing to build a campfire for its many different uses, it is another to burn something just for sheer entertainment. Who’s couches are they burning and where do they get them? I know some teens who thought something similar would be fun and they ended up burning down an entire trailer. I think fire and teens don’t mix too well unless it is in a controlled, supervised environment, like camp or bon fires. Otherwise, the risk is too great and the idea that damaging property for fun is ok doesn’t sit right with me.
@Jen, #13: “controlled, supervised environment, like camp”
This doesn’t sound at all like my scout camps as a kid, but the idea you posit is a pretty good one.
On the differences between Mormons and all other Christians, perhaps you should pull out a copy of Bruce R McConkie’s works. I’m sure that would help him want to date a Mormon.
AndrewJDavis-
“This doesn’t sound at all like my scout camps as a kid, but the idea you posit is a pretty good one”
Maybe because your scout leaders grew up burning couches.
Jen, I think you misunderstand. I think that the burning of couches was a symbolic gesture of teen purity. In other words, if they are burning the couches, they aren’t ‘making out’ on them.
Cowboy–
Too much. LOL
Mormon kids are proud of their strict moral code. They don’t use drugs, drink or have sex. They also don’t steal, they don’t covet their neighbor’s ass, and when they tag buildings they never use swear words.
On Friday and Saturday nights, they come up with nutty schemes for fun. For example, my brother’s friends, just last week, burned down our house. It was pretty hot. But not in that way. If you like, we’ll drop by your neighborhood next week.
********
The offensive part in the original post is the idea that having fun without sex, drugs, and Ozzie is, of necessity, tame (which is just down the street from ‘lame.’) It’s a statement kids that aren’t Mormon think they can’t have fun without the terrible trio recited above. My rewrite, above, removes the offensive (and, yes, condescending) linkage.
Aaargh. Trying again. It’s a statement that kids that aren’t Mormon can’t have fun without the terrible trio recited above. My rewrite, above, removes the offensive (and, yes, condescending) linkage.
Cowboy-
“Jen, I think you misunderstand. I think that the burning of couches was a symbolic gesture of teen purity. In other words, if they are burning the couches, they aren’t ‘making out’ on them.”
Funny!
I thought your response to this young man was helpful as well as funny and kind. Nice work! I look forward to seeing how you answer his follow-up question.
I am totally with Agnes and Michael here. The response may be humorous to some of you, but as a convert to the church during my college years, who totally missed those roaring hormonal teenage years as a Mormon, the mention of those things are pushing it–really pushing it. I am a YSA and it comes across condescending to me, and a Mormon telling me that or to my family (who are Christian) who are not members of the church would just be asking for it. If the missionaries were up in the air about that area of Mormonism when I was investigating the church, I think I would be highly offended. I would think that clearly Mormons have no idea what other faiths believe in. Agnes’ and Michael’s comments are appropriate with regard to this.
Cowboy, I may recommend that comment for a Niblet!!!
Ahoy, Joanna!
I second MH’s nomination for said Niblet.
Thank you to MH, and Brandt. It seems I have finally proven my Mother wrong, as it appears my sarcasm is/was actually good for ‘something’.
I loved the letter. I also thought the introduction to the letter was delightfully written.
I also think that those who want to discuss how the letter could be better, could have been more cordial and kind to a first time, Welcome-to-Mormon-Matters blog.
I realize that as Latter-day Saints, you have different goals and are going to approach this situation differently than I would as an evangelical Christian. If you can nudge this young man towards being fellowshipped into the church, you will. I would if I were Mormon. That’s just the nature of being part of a proselyting religion and there’s nothing wrong with it.
I got my start studying the LDS church as a 16 year-old who was interested in a fellow Mormon teenager. He immediately affirmed to me that he was a Christian, just like I was, and he said he accepted me as a Christian. At first I felt all warm and fuzzy about this apparent religious affinity between us.
And then the conversion attempts began, and I became very, very confused. If we were both Christians, why was he so interested in converting me to his church in particular? It wasn’t like the Baptists or the Methodists had ever tried to make me leave my Presbyterian church for theirs. Being a Christian means very different things to the two different groups.
My request is this: please be up front about the fact that if he hangs out with Latter-day Saints, they will certainly try to convert him to their church, especially if his relationship with the Mormon young woman starts to go anywhere. His current faith is not considered adequate as far as Mormons are concerned and they do try to convert Christians to their fold. I believe your line about how marrying other Mormons is a big deal was the start of that. Please find a way to expand on that.
He sounds like a good kid, and I hate to think of him going through the heartache and religious confusion that I went through. Thank you for hearing me out.
Agnes: OK, not seeing how this “Mormon kids tend to run together in groups. On Friday and Saturday nights, they come up with nutty schemes for fun without sex, drugs, and alcohol” translates into an implication that the Christian boy who wrote the letter is into whoring and getting wasted. I find it very doubtful that he would think so. On the contrary, he probably feels like he’s in the same boat as these squeaky-clean do-gooders. I think you are being over-sensitive.
BJM: From the letter – “Believe, me, they’d be pleased as red punch to have a nice Christian boy like you along for the ride: they’d think they were doing missionary work.” This is a gentle nudge that the kids will probably try to convert him. Her response covers this point.
“Rumor has it some Mormon girls do marry outside the faith and live happily ever after anyways.” I don’t see that Ask is making any major indictment on other faiths or misunderstanding them.
Hawkgrrrl, I think more than a gentle nudge is needed. They won’t think that they’re doing missionary work by hanging out with him, they will start doing missionary work, probably pretty directly.
I don’t see that Ask is making any major indictment on other faiths or misunderstanding them.
I never said that she was.
Hawkgrrl, the language I dislike is the linkage between not having sex, not using drugs (!) and not using alcohol with “being totally tame.” There’s the heavy heavy implication that those 15 and 16 year olds expect to be entertained by sex, drugs, disobeying your mother and father, having other Gods before them, and the like. Everyone on the outside gets it. No one on the inside does.
This is a lesson, all, in how to offend someone, should you be interested.
Oh, and comment 6, AndredwJDavis, my comment was the opposite of condescending. I gave her constructive (if blunt) criticism. The tone actually assumes she is an adult and would appreciate (or not) my comments. Condescending (or mean) would be to smile evilly, keep quiet (or cheer her on), and let her go ahead and insult those people she is trying to engage.
Agnes – more confused than ever. “There’s the heavy heavy implication that those 15 and 16 year olds expect to be entertained by sex, drugs, disobeying your mother and father, having other Gods before them, and the like.” Huh? BTW, those things ARE pretty entertaining.
“Everyone on the outside gets it. No one on the inside does.” Who is on the outside and who is on the inside in this statement? I just don’t follow your meaning here. Sorry if I am being dense.
“On Friday and Saturday nights, they come up with nutty schemes for fun without sex, drugs, and alcohol”
This sounds like my group of high school band nerds that I hung out with. I wasn’t really popular enough to be included in some of the groups of Mormon kids. Of course some of the band nerds were secretly hooking up, but then again some of the Mormon kids were doing that too.
I dare say that I am with Dexter on this one.
The embarrassing thing in reading the response for me was thinking, “does she HAVE to put the “MIA Maid” lingo into the very first response to this information-seeking young man?” It’s difficult enough explaining the meaning of that term to a “Beehive”.
Agnes, I think you need to take a chill pill.
Joanna, I loved your response. It made me laugh.
Jack, FTR, I know you got hammered pretty hard by zealous missionary-minded teens in your youth, but when I was in high school I had more non-Mormon / inactive friends than active Mormon friends, and I never “shared the gospel” with them. I just wasn’t interested in it. So it might be coming this kid’s way, but then again it might not…
Awww, c’mon pigeongrrl, I just got tired of repeating “sex, drugs, and alcohol,” and so decided to branch out into random other sins. Also disapproved of by Mormons. OK. Should I stop writing anything that implies a modicum of intelligence of the commenters on this site? That would be condescending.
How about I call you noriotgrrl instead?
Or, maybe “neverworeabikiniletalonelistenedtobikinikillgrrl?”
agnes – please comment however you like. Everyone’s entitled to their opinion. I still don’t get the other comment (about outside vs. inside), but whatevs. There are plenty of Mormons and non-Mormons who find sex, drugs & drinking entertaining. I just didn’t think that the author was making some sort of indictment of non-LDS teens.
Rigel – I am still waiting to find out what a Mia Maid is. I always imagined a milkmaid but in a beekeeping costume. Time to ditch these silly names, IMO. They make us look foolish. We have lots of other more doctrinally important ways to do that.
OK, I’m being mean. Forgive me for not using your appropriate nom-de-blog, Hawkgrrl.
If you just read it and not read into it, it is quite a good answer.
Welcome Joanna. As my family wold say, You’re such a mensch!
“If you just read it and not read into it, it is quite a good answer.”
I think Jeff makes the point. Perhaps there may have been an unintended implication in there, but I really think we are splitting hairs, and have once again missed the point of the post. What is very clear from her message to the young man is that 1) she admires him very much (that’s a compliment Agnes) 2) she intends nothing but goodness for him, and genuinely hopes to help him understand the religios intricacies of the girl in question. In short, the good vibes coming through in the letter, not only provided the young man with some useful information and guidance, but also appears to have made a positive impression that he had sought out the right mentor. It appears that he was encouraged by Mrs. Brooks courteous response enough to come back for more.
Ms.Jack Meyers-
“They won’t think that they’re doing missionary work by hanging out with him, they will start doing missionary work, probably pretty directly.”
Honestly, I wasn’t really thinking about converting anyone when I was 16. I don’t know that a lot of teenagers are thinking about that when they are hanging out having fun. I am sure there are some, but for the most part, I think they are more concerned about what is going on inside of them and how they look than whether or not someone is interested in the LDS church.
Cowboy, askmormongirl doesn’t know anything about the young man in question. Houw could she admire him or “love this kid?” Unless she has a thing for pixels. Lovebomb at ll.
And I happen to look amazing in a bikini. Just sayin’.
I think it was a great reply. Joanna, you’re telling us something about your perspective with the comment, “Who knows what will happen from there. Rumor has it some Mormon girls do marry outside the faith and live happily ever after anyways.” This and your intelligent comments on the RadioWest Glenn Beck episode make me wonder how “Mormon” you are. And I don’t mean that in any negative way. Maybe you could fill us in on that sometime. As a related aside, one of the hardest moments I have had in LDS leadership is being somewhat pressured to counsel a young woman who sincerely loved a nonmember, and he her, to start looking for a Mormon man to court and marry instead. So your above comment hits a tender nerve. I’m looking forward to your future contributions here.
Agnes, you appear to be interested in controversy for controversy’s sake. As such I am not particularly interested in debating whether or not AskMormonGirl is capable of either loving or admiring someone with which she has had only email communication. Neither of us are capable of qualifying this, but suffice it to say I get a good vibe from her reply, so I take her at her word. I just liked the overall tone and advice in her reply. Good luck to you.
Hawkgrrrl—”And I happen to look amazing in a bikini.”
Being a skeptic, I need proof.
I’m still confused – what is wrong with burning couches?
re: Dexter, LOL. Are you sure?
j/k
re: Cowboy, another LOL.
re: agens, am assuming (and yes, it’s an assumption) that the comment about it not being tame is due to her hearing, every bit as much as I’ve heard, that mormon stuff is boring and not much fun. If you’ve heard that as many many times as I have, you’d probably put in the qualifier as well.
re: Hawkgrrl #47, lol. (Lots of LOLs on this thread I’m seeing…)
re: The one thing with regard to the marrying within a faith thing that I’ve read, not necessarily within the lds church, is that it can cause problems in any marriage with any two religions or non religions…at least when children come around. Some people have managed to work out a good arrangement, but I’ve seen far more, totally unhappy about it. Hence, I’d discourage it with any religion or strong beliefs that don’t match each others. Marriage seems to be hard enough these days without additional issues.
re: 50 Holden and 51. Wyoming…chalk up two more LOLs.
As for my take on the email, I’m just impressed with this kid and his willingness to be considerate of the gal. That’s pretty impressive in a 15 yr old boy.
Oops, sorry agnes, I just noticed I typoed.
Joanna – Refreshing post! Articulate, succinct, and simple! Then again, you have a Ph.D. and write for a living so I guess it’s to be expected. I am not an active member of the church and have very few biases anymore when it comes to religion, so I’d like to think that I can approach your post with some added objectivity. That said, I see little reason why your 15 year old reader should be offended by anything you wrote. It was fun, witty, and harmless. Didn’t Sr Okazaki write a book called, “Lighten Up?” Good advice, to be certain. By the way, I knew many good Christian kids in school, and some of them made better “Mormons,” behaviorally speaking, than I ever was.
As for Ms Jack Myers’ concern, I think several other posts are spot on. There would be relatively few teenagers out there, in my estimation, that would actually attempt to convert one of their classmates. I certainly didn’t see much of it at that age, and I grew up in Mesa, AZ, a town founded by pioneers. I know I had a few conversations one on one with non-member friends, but it was a far cry from the kind of coordinated group effort that is being proposed here.
And finally… burning couches!!! All I can say is that I’m glad that didn’t catch on at BYU when I was there. What would I have done in my spare time without them? (-;