Hello again, Mormon Matters readers! Last Monday, the first edition of Ask Mormon Girl answered an inquiry from L.M., a 15 year-old Christian boy with a crush on a 16 year-old Mormon girl. Well, it wasn’t long before a second query from L.M. arrived in our askmormongirl@gmail.com inbox:
Hello Mrs. Brooks,
Thank you for your advice, I found it very helpful. I don’t know who she hangs out with, but I would like to get to know them…. If it turns out that she’s not interested, at least I will have made a few friends in the process. I’ll let you know what comes of it. By the way, what are some of the differences between Mormon and Christian beliefs that I should know about? The last thing that I want is to offend someone, especially such a nice girl as her.
Thanks again,
L.M.
Dear L.M.:
What are the differences between Mormons and Christians? That is quite a question. For if you stop right now and listen closely, you will hear a furious click-click-clicking echoing across the reaches of the universe. That’s the sound of thousands of Mormons and non-Mormon Christians who are right at this very moment sitting brows furrowed, shoulders hunched, fingers flying, hammering away at our theological differences. These discussions are sometimes quite neutral, and sometimes polite but pointy-headed, but often they boil down to Mormons insisting “We love Jesus! Very much! Which makes us very Christian!” while evangelical Christians fold their arms and turn up their noses, saying, “No, you are not! And stay the hell away from my Bible College picnic!” When I was your age, L.M., back in the 1980s, many evangelical Christians were quite fired up over this whole Mormons-vs.-Christians thing. My evangelical Christian friend Jeannette always seemed to take special pleasure in reminding me that I believed in the wrong Jesus and that I belonged to a cult. As did the anti-Mormon picketers who showed up at our church on Sundays with placards bearing the same message.
If I had to describe the differences, I would say that non-Mormon Christians love Jesus, while Mormons love Jesus Plus. As in, yes, we read the Bible, plus theBook of Mormon. And, yes, we believe that Jesus’s atonement saves us, and we believe that eternal commitments we make to our families also play a big role in bringing us closer to God. And, yes, we hold basic Christian values like charity, honesty, and morality, plus we also follow some rules of conduct specific to Mormon tradition. And yes, we are baptized after the example of Jesus Christ,plus we also express our commitment to God through a whole other set of ordinances that take place within Mormon temples. From what I’ve seen, it’s theplus part of Mormonism that seems to upset the evangelical Christians like my friend Jeannette and my non-friends the anti-Mormon picketers.
But I can tell that’s not the kind of Christian you are, L.M. You’re a lover, not a fighter. In fact, when I look again at your letter, I sense that what you’re really asking is not a question of theology but of ethics: how not to “offend” the really “nice” Mormon girl of your dreams. You want to know how to conduct yourself so as to respect your Mormon girl’s feelings. Which is actually a very, very discerning way to approach the whole subject, L.M., for the truly wise among us know that religion is far less accurately understood as a set of abstract theological propositions than as an incredibly powerful set of feelings, and that those feelings really matter. (An idea that, sadly, never seemed to occur to my friend Jeannette.)
So, L.M., here is my advice:
Know that most Mormon kids hold to strict rules of conduct, and they feel most comfortable around kids who do the same. You can read all about the standards Mormon youth keep in depth here. But it pretty much boils down to this: no sex (nor anything like unto it), no alcohol, no smoking, no drugs, no coffee (and for some Mormons, no caffeinated sodas), no R-rated movies, no swearing, no porn, no going out with friends on Sunday (except to church events). Mormons also tend to be clean-cut and pretty conservative in their appearance. Be aware that if you have a piercing or wild haircut, that may make your Mormon Girl and her parents a bit nervous, but don’t let that discourage you—especially if you’re willing to stick to rootbeer and make sure everyone on your group date gets home before curfew.
Know too that Mormon girl probably has very strong feelings about being Mormon, feelings she may not be confident she can fully explain. For being Mormon is more than a religion to her—it is a whole way of life: a culture, a family history, perhaps the most fundamental dimension of her being. She may be both eager to share her beliefs with you, and incredibly tender and protective, even defensive, about them, because non-Mormons have sometimes ridiculed Mormon people and our ways. I am confident that you, however, will be able to win her trust. Just listen when she talks. Make it easy for her to live her beliefs and keep her standards. And maybe if you two hit it off, you can bring her to this webpage, and show her that you once wrote a letter to a complete stranger just to find out how to treat a Mormon girl right. And that, L.M., is enough to warm any Mormon girl’s heart.
Do you have a question for Ask Mormon Girl? Get unorthodox answers from an imperfect source by writing to askmormongirl@gmail.com.
I have to say:
Even as a skeptical internet-curmudgeon, I love Joanna Brooks’ answer-style and her treatment of her interlocutor.
It makes me wish I had questions to ask the mormon girl.
Joanna, nicely put.
I think it’s terribly unfair and perhaps even deceptive to describe Mormonism as merely an addition to traditional Christianity. If I became a Mormon, a lot of things would be taken away from my belief system, starting with my belief in the Trinity, justification by faith alone, the sufficiency of the priesthood of Jesus Christ (having rendered the Aaronic priesthood obsolete, etc), and my high view of true prophets (which says they have been infallible when publicly speaking on matters of doctrine in appeal to the authority of their prophetic office; i.e teaching Adam-God would render one a false prophet). A Christian would also have to give up the belief that God absolutely never sinned (particularly in conjunction with the belief that such a thing actually matters more than the correct mode of baptism, etc).
3) I agree with Aaron S. that Mrs. Brooks response on the differences between Mormons and “traditional” Christians, is a bit weak if intended to be a theological treatise for the purposes of academic argument or critique. On the other hand, I am greatly impressed with Doctor’s prescience and intellectual restraint, instead giving favor to the intent behind L.M.’s question. I am also greatly impressed by her ability to restrain from redirecting the conversation towards a proselytizing effort. She could easily take this oppurtunity to gratify her own self interest by overwhelming L.M. with either missionary zeal, or intellectual prowess regarding a complex and perhaps advanced (though I admit this is an assumption only) subject, instead chosing to answer HIS questions by considering the intent, i.e., to win favor from this Mormon crush. Suffice it to say, so far consider me one more fan of Askmormongirl.
The “plus” comment bugs a little. But I agree with Cowboy that the answer goes more to the heart of the question and that’s a great approach.
Good response. That kid sounds like a really good kid. I’m more worried about the Mormon girl offending him than the other way around.
“And maybe if you two hit it off, you can bring her to this webpage, and show her that you once wrote a letter to a complete stranger just to find out how to treat a Mormon girl right.”
Nice ending.
I think the first thing LM needs to know is that if he keeps making a distinction between Mormons and Christians, he is likely to offend his friend at least slightly. He needs to know that Mormons consider themselves Christians too. Also, if he is an Evangelical Christian, it wouldn’t hurt him to know that other types of (mainstream) Christians don’t necessarily believe everything he does, e.g., salvation through faith alone or biblical inerrancy.
I like the channel that Mrs. Brooks has opened for productive, non-threatening dialogue. Like the answer in #1, I feel that those who have similar types of questions will find her responses welcoming. I liked the sly link to the page on standards too.
I think the tone of the answer was perfect, although I think the only practical answer would be “find another girl.” No matter how nice this guy is, pursuing this girl is going to bring about a lot of unneccesary pain. Unless he’s open to converting to Mormonism, he will never be welcomed into her world, and I think the opposite is also true. Unfortunately, both Mormon and evangelical Christian cultures value labels more highly than a person’s character. I don’t see the point in encouraging someone to kick against those pricks.
brjones-
“No matter how nice this guy is, pursuing this girl is going to bring about a lot of unneccesary pain.”
That’s a great point. I dated several non-Mormons, and less active members as well and it did create a lot of pain on both sides. I think it can be difficult though because we have all heard the stories of conversions in relationships so it is a messy issue. I can tell you this, some of the guys that treated me the best weren’t religious at all and some of the RM’s were the ones that treated me the worst. It was pretty sad. It’s all good now though since my Prince came and swept me off my feet.
Brjones – That would likely be the case if they were a little older and were in the stage of life where marriage was a viable possibility. I think that they’re young enough that the thought of her having to end their relationship early because she could never marry him due to his different religious views probably won’t be a factor. Maybe she and her folks are more tolerant of inter-faith dating than most as long as their daughter’s significant other is a stand up kid, which this young man seems to be. You never know, and I’d hate to give this kid bad advise based on a false assumption. You do have a valid point thought that it may not be a bad idea to let this kid know that this might be a problem in the long term.
Mormongirl, I thought your response was spot on.
#10 – 11:
Jen/BrJones – I agree that you both have valid points, but lest we forget I would remind of what Brother Brooks has had to say about “Standing Outside the Fire”. In essence:
we call them fools
who have to dance within the flame
who chance the sorrow and the shame
that always comes with getting burned
But you’ve got to be tough when consumed with desire
because it’s not enough just to stand outside the fire.
I have always appreciated this particular gem
“Life is not tried, it is merely survived when you stand outside the fire”
I think the point is, we never know exactly how things are to pan out, but you definately miss 100% of the shots you don’t take, as the saying goes. Perhaps if the young lady in this case is in fact, entrenched within Mormonism, then the outcomes you have predicted are likely. Yet, I too am a Mormon, nevertheless the social constraint of needing to date within the Church would have little impact on my relationships. Furthermore, it is possible that L.M. may have interest in Mormonism, this too leaving the oppurtunity open, and as Brother Brooks would say, “better left to chance”. As you both point out, they could certainly miss the “pain”, but then they would “have to miss the dance”.
How poetic Cowboy.
I have to agree that some of the friendships I developed while dating those outside of my religion helped me become the person I am today and I am grateful for them. At the same time one of the most difficult and painful relationships that I had to let go of was due to religious differences. That particular pain wasn’t worth going through to me when I look back and I felt like I wasted quite a bit of time just trying to stop seeing this person over and over again. It can be very painful to fall in love with someone you know you can’t share your life with. So, although I agree that it is important to see beyond the “date Mormons only” view, it is also wise to recognize that the differences in a relationship that crop up from religion can be so painful that it isn’t worth it.
Once again, Mormon Girl scores. Very sweet response to this nice young man. He is FIFTEEN, people. There is no reason religious differences need to come between young kids. It’s silly to advice against a “relationship” for two high school kids because they can’t marry each other.
E-
I somewhat agree, but I had 8 friends I can think of right off the top of my head who met and dated in high school and ended up marrying, so it’s not THAT silly.
At the expense of becoming (overly) obnoxious, I still feel the need to communicate that there is a relevant Garth Brooks song for every one of these comments.
E: I wish someone would have told that to the parents of the literally scores of mormon teens I grew up with whose parents had a “no non-member” policy. I’m fairly certain that the hurt feelings and offense given to kids the age of this boy were very real and not insignificant. If you honestly think religion isn’t an issue at this age then I would guess you didn’t grow up in a community with a predominant religion. I agree that for most 15 year olds it’s not an issue. Unfortunately, many kids’ parents foist the issue on them, whether they like it or not.
Well, I grew up in an area with a predominant religion that was not Mormonism, and I can only say that religion wasn’t a major issue between kids at this age, even when the predominant religion and others in the area got together for a community viewing of the Godmakers.
Cowboy-
I think you should post some of those songs so we can hear them.
Hawk-
I feel like I missed out not growing up where you did. I didn’t even know about the Godmakers til I was in college.
I’m biased. I wouldn’t exist if my mother hadn’t dated outside her faith. The church ended up getting a deacon, an elder, and a high priest out of the deal, but the meeting of my grandfather and the man who would eventually become my father is a family legend.
#3 Aaron S. ~ I think it’s terribly unfair and perhaps even deceptive to describe Mormonism as merely an addition to traditional Christianity.
On this much of what Aaron says, I agree. I remember my Mormon friends telling me as a teenager, “You didn’t get baptized, you went swimming.” They were definitely not simply looking to add onto my old beliefs. Getting me to renounce my former beliefs was part of the goal.
I also think it’s unfair to point to poor behavior on the part of evangelical Christians and completely neglect all of the negative things Mormons have said about the rest of the Christian world throughout their history. There is never going to be mutual understanding between our faiths until Mormons stop acting like their hands are clean in this mess.
Overall, I’m rather disappointed with this answer.
Aaron…I don’t think they’re “too young” but then again I dated a non-member at 16 and within 3 months of vowing my chastity, was pregnant. I spent 3 years miserably married to him, and now spend the rest of my years miserably tied to him through our children. Often, the lifestyle values and moral lines are just too different to render an “innocent” relationship. The pressure to be sexually active is already present enough in teen relationships, but throw in different faiths and different views on whats “okay” and you’ve got a perfect storm. I doubt her parents want her to start her dating life with dating a nonmember either. I think this boy should be counseled to become friends with her, and leave it at that. For every successful interfaith relationship, there are a thousand miserable ones, and its just not worth it to test the waters IMO.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1mgcy_garth-brooks-standing-outside-the-f
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoID=773650980
Jen:
I had this weird idea that Garth Brooks was the Michael Jackson of country music. That’s what I get for assuming. Enjoy.
I, too, think this was a pretty even-handed approach by an LDS writer to a Non-Mormon. This passage troubled me though:
“but often they boil down to Mormons insisting “We love Jesus! Very much! Which makes us very Christian!” while evangelical Christians fold their arms and turn up their noses, saying, “No, you are not! And stay the hell away from my Bible College picnic!”
The LDS answer is passionate but polite. The Christian answer is rude and profane. An obvious bias to me…
A few thoughts…
1)–Agreed that Joanna could have been more even-handed in her treatment of what interfaith dialogue / non-dialogue often looks like between Mormons and evangelicals. Maybe something more along the lines of Mormons insisting: “We’re the world’s TRUEST Christians!” and the evangelicals saying: “Nuh-uh, you’re not even Christians at all because you believe in a DIFFERENT JESUS!” would more accurately reflect what I’ve seen, anyway.
2)–Still, I thought the answer was good-natured and kind. I liked what Joanna said about Mormonism being important in ways she (the 16 year old girl) can’t even necessarily describe. Overall, another enjoyable answer from my perspective.
I think it was a good answer. We have to remember that this kid is 15 and he probably isn’t interested in a deep discussion about doctrine. We do not know his exact beliefs so she can’t really itemize all the specifics. Those who have studied religions for years and years might think the “jesus plus” answer isn’t accurate, but I believe it is an appropriate simplified answer to give this kid some idea that their beliefs overlap somewhat but Mormonism comes with some extra stuff that he might not be familiar with.
I was an LDS girl and I would have loved for a boy to ask this question and get this kind of answer. Of course I dated non-mormons, there wasn’t much of a choice. Very few find long lasting love in high school. Most of it is all learning experiences.