Squaring the Circle, balance and ideals

What a fascinating post.

Thank you. This has genuinely made new connections in my mind about how I can approach my spiritual life. Is there any good books (that discuss the history and symbolism of this problem) that you could recommend on this issue.

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I don’t get it, I guess I’m using the left side of my brain too much. I will try to square the circle, but it feels like an up hill battle to me.

Some good books related to this subject:

“Sacred Geometry: Philosophy and Practice (Art and Imagination)” by Robert Lawlor
[Lawlor's book has my favorite solution in it. This is a philosophical workbook.]

“A Beginner’s Guide to Constructing the Universe: Mathematical Archetypes of Nature, Art, and Science” by Michael S. Schneider
[A great book exploring numbers, geometry and philosophical/religious symbolism.]

“The Power of Myth” by Joseph Campbell
[A must read for anyone trying to tackle the importance of religious mythology, why it is so important for individuals and cultures.]

Are you implying Joseph borrowed such concepts for our church? Or are you suggesting that as such concepts were already borrowed into Masonry, they were also derivatively pushed into our theology. It is an interesting idea, but I think you need to connect the dots more.

I am implying that these ideas have been around as long as we have human records. That makes them profoundly important. Many different groups have “borrowed” and used this line of thought. Masons have these elements in their practice. Joseph Smith was interested in a wide variety of sources that may have influenced his creative thought (and one can just as easily say divine inspiration depending on your view). I would not say that the body of LDS temple ceremony is “just” a copy of something else. It is not. I am saying that many traditions point to a common, transcendent idea. Every group looks up and sees the sun in the daytime sky. They all come up with a story for what it is. Some may borrow a little from each other, but that does not diminish the truth of a sun in the sky.

Each new tradition that points to these “truths” builds again a new experience appropriate and meaningful in the context of its time.

I think it is an interesting idea. I think the masonry connection is more likely rather than that he borrowed from other mathematical sources. However, I think that there is a certain way of thinking that is important here.

Thanks for the references. When you say Lawlor has your favourite solution are you implying that he solved it, I had recently read that it was impossible (but this was on wikipedia).

I will look up the books. Thanks.

OK I realise that my first attempt of squaring the circle mealy square rooted it, after looking in to squaring the circle further, it became apparent that it is impossible to complete the puzzle, the reason being that PI is transcendental meaning that the sequence of numbers is irrational, what I gained from this thought experiment is that not all things are rational, most of humanity seeks to rationalise and quantify the world which is why a concept such as squaring the circle even came about.
the point is not everything can be reduced to rational, symbolism does not have to make logical sense. [this is the result of MrQandA's thought experiment, others may experience different results]

This is a fascinating concept, Brian. There are so many symbols in our worship that are out of reach to us at this point. I am reminded of the episode of Star Trek (original series) in which the tribe of people are worshiping the “sacred words,” but none of them understand that they are actually reciting the constitution of the United States, and they also don’t understand that their actions contradict the meaning of their “sacred words” because they lost the knowledge of what the words were. I’m sure as a fellow Trekker you’ll remember this epi.

Great concept…I’m starting to focus on solving this…wait…I think I…wait…

my head exploded.

Brian: I guess the information you seem to have but which seems unavailable here is how “squaring the circle” directly connects historically to masonry.

Pi is exactly 3! (1 Kings 7:23.)

#7 Robert Lawlor doesn’t actually solve the problem in the precise mathematical sense. Like you mentioned, it is impossible. That in itself has meaning, and is a way to expand the mind and see something in our environment that is infinite — like the relationships of Phi or Pi. Robert Lawlor goes through an exercise in his book that approximates an answer through a serious of geometry steps. Each step has interesting philosophical meaning and symbolism. Several years ago, I used to enjoy working through his “solution” on paper as a form of meditation.

#8 Great example! Thanks for sharing that. What you are describing is the type of exercise I am talking about. As you ponder the question, the puzzle, it stretches your thoughts and gives you insights like that.

#11 I am not a mason, so I can’t speak authoritatively on their connections. I’ve read a couple books on their history though. As far as I know, they don’t really know their exact origin beyond a breakdown in their historical records in the early 1700′s. They have a mythology of origin going back to Solomon’s Temple, but most masons (as far as I know) don’t believe in that literal and historical connection. It is a metaphor to them also. In any case, they are one of many inheritors of a body of European esoteric wisdom from the middle ages.

I believe personally that Joseph was influenced by his exposure to masonry in addition to a short period of study in the Kabbalah. His early years were heavily influenced by European books on ritual and ceremonial magic (see D. Michael Quinn’s “Early Mormonism and the Magic World View”). The latter was a natural and normal part of his cultural environment. All of these sources approach this topic in various ways.

Being inspired by these sources can also be seen as divine inspiration. “Prophets” are a reaction to a spiritual, communal need in their environment. Prophets have no meaning without a context. I don’t like to overly simplify and dismiss Joseph Smith’s work by saying it is merely a copy of something else. That reduces the richness of all the sources.

Brian,

Not only is your post refreshing, but I am particularly pleased by your example at #6 about the sun. Symbols, like parables, are not intrinsically sacred, but the meaning one gives them can be…to that person. The hand can be a powerful symbol related to the priesthood, or it can be the tool of domestic violence of a drunk husband. Therefore, as long as they can put stimulate our deep meditating apparatus, it doesn’t matter where Joseph ‘got the stuff.’ He surely used it well.
Before temple teaching was modified and shrank to its actual format, there was a more elaborate discourse on symbolism, spirituality and righteousness. I don’t know if its removal from our temples is a positive thing, or more like God’s mark of disapproval for our lack of engagement with this material: ‘if of no value to us, heavens claw it back’ sort of thing.
Symbolism is not always a source of daily pondering, but stands as so many landmarks that structure our meditation. Temple and Cosmos by Nibley is interesting in highlighting the many times and places where these symbols were found and used as representations of metaphysical and/or religious truths.

#14 I agree with you on feeling the instruction on symbolism is lacking, sadly removed. The current LDS Temple experience has its origin in the 1840′s Nauvoo period under Joseph Smith, and later formalized by Brigham Young. This was all in a period of time when many members of the Church were in fact also active masons, and they were more familiar with this type of ceremonial experience. We’ve lost a lot of that cultural context, or distanced our selves over the past 160 years from that way of thinking.

That makes, easily, 100 times more sense to me than previous explanations of these symbols. Thank you.

How does a trapazoid fit in all of this?

“If only there was a way to preserve this exercise of Squaring the Circle in a new religious framework, a way to re-purpose it for the modern world, many could benefit from such a metaphorical hero’s quest in their life journey.”
A TV producer once said (paraphrasing), “When considering what to air, you can never go wrong by *underestimating* the intelligence of the public.”
I cannot speak with any authority about how the “man in the street” — Mormon or anyone else, thought in the early 1800s, but I would conjecture that a great many Mormons that I have been acquainted with over the years is one that typifies the mind-set that it is quite content to just suckle on ‘milk’ rather than concern itself with any ‘meat.’ In other words, “I don’t want to think too much; I just want to ‘feel good’ when I go to church socializing with friends while preforming my calling(s) and stopping for desert after temple night, and things like that.”
If you ever attempt to broach a topic at church like Squaring the Circle or Joseph Smith’s “Grand Fundamental Principles.” etc, you just get blank stares, and even setting yourself up for future social avoidance. That’s the reality of what the church membership more and more like today. It goes along quite well with what President Hinkley said, “You can think anything you want, just keep it to yourself (again, paraphrasing).”
The modern Mormon hierarchy is extremely disinclined to promote and encourage anything that would attempt to “”re-purpose” anything that would suggest “a new religious framework.” And the general membership doesn’t want that either. It’s becoming more and more ‘The Church of the Religious Lumpen Proletariat.”

A challenge to my intellect is often exhilarating. I experienced this today, when I tackled some computer code that I needed to change and straighten out in some places. It’s hard sometimes to see where the error comes from, and you have to “execute” the code in your head to see where it breaks…

you seem to like problems help me with this new old one….
In 1937 the state of Montana conducted its first archeological dig “The Hagen Site”. Established as a National Historical Landmark in 1964 (it is presently undeveloped, and for sale).
The site is unusual due to the pottery and structure excavated at the site. The pottery is extremely advanced with a style that is hard to account for. The structure was built as a stationary building.
The equation; the lodge has a 16 foot diameter with 12 supporting posts. The front door faces to the sun raise with two posts 6 feet apart, the center has two posts 4 feet apart, the west wall has two post 2 feet apart. Being that the lodge is round, a sacred native symbol; I circled the other two points, the inner and outer circles.
Now you have your equation; A to B to C, gives you a 15 degree angle (1/24 of 360) .
The three proportional circles are now called out, and all 3 fit with-in the equation.
Hope you can enjoy this as much as I have.
hopimigration.com
Rod
see web site for pictures “Hagen Site”

I pictured in my mind how that lodge experience must have looked, with the sun coming in through the opening. It must have been magical. What a beautiful concept, both simple and complex.

The square goes inside the circle.

except for the areas… that.. don’t fit.

This was a wonderful discovery (this article). Thank you for the time and effort used in putting this together. It helped me tremendously! Many Blessings!

You do know that it is impossible to Square a Circle, don’t you?

why is it impossible to square a circle?