Couldn’t we be carpe diem kind of people instead (you know, optimistic, Joseph Smithy-we are that we might have joy). That would be a lot easier to sell.

I don’t understand why those who are striving so hard for abstinence feel they need to make others to the same. “If its right for me, it must be right for everyone.” That’s where the pride comes in to override and ruin the values I listed above.

If you can keep your personal commitments to yourself…great…more power to you.

I find most people in all churches translate that self-control into superiority, unfortunately.

This was the Buddha’s fundamental observation. In his journey to find Truth, he tried the strict asceticism espoused by many Hindus around him. He also came from the other extreme, a life of luxury. At the end of the day, his profound insight was that neither extreme was ideal, but the Middle Way leads to more progression as a person.

So in abstaining from speaking falsehoods I create all kinds of problems for myself. If I am completely honest I hurt feelings, piss people off, cause marital strife, etc. So how does one abstain from lying without the major fallout that comes from being completely honest? I think most would agree that honest is a good thing but, it often gets me in more trouble then it is worth.

So do I indulge in telling a white lie to improve my relationships in life? When is it ok to bend the truth? And, once I make a distinction between when it is OK and when it is not what is to keep me from continually expanding that distinction?

I think the church teaches complete abstinence in cases because, people have a hard time moderating. Balance is the key in life but, it is as easy to become imbalanced in the abstinance side as it is in the indulgence side.

Thomas, I really like your point about people between (or within) religions raising the abstinence bar on one another.

A few years and a few really painful consequences later I am learning that self control is a critical part of life, but moderation is the real goal.

I didn’t pick this one, ultimately, because while I think it’s important to understand why we’re following something, I don’t feel like I have to learn through experience (which I read to mean, my own experience). I’ve learned plenty of things I’d rather not experience personally by watching those around me.

I agree with “Whatever restricts me in my pursuit of personal fulfillment and meaning is wrong. Abstaining is primarily a control mechanism devised by joyless people.” to some extent, but I don’t think that the things I choose to abstain from are restricting my pursuit of personal fulfillment and meaning.

Abstinence from some things makes good sense, spiritually and ethically.

But on the whole, I agree that it’s primarily a form of border-control, especially with nitpicky things like tea and tattoos. Too much of that makes me weary. Still, like Rico said above (#4), I comply to avoid social rejection and to place myself within the borders of the community.

One of my personal favorites!

We are told often that we are to be ‘in the world but not of the world’. Sometimes I think that the barrier of ‘specialness’ created by the WoW and such do not so much keep out the sins of the world as keep us boxed nicely in place.

anon, to say nothing of the morality of alcohol, in that situation I would wonder if the issue was deeper than just being “difficult to relax.” If something simple can solve a problem, that’s one thing. But often our solutions are not really getting at the real issues. Just my two cents.

I also think the real question about #14 is whether it is “joy” we feel when we “rejoice” in our superiority. A religious scarcity mentality seems to be more about the bottomless fear of our unworthiness than actual lasting joy. Rejoicing in one’s moral superiority is not really joy so much as disdain for others.

I believe much of religious practice that is not directly related to loving one’s neighbor as onesself, arises as much from lack of faith as from faith: You can be a fundamentally decent person, and still have doubts about your standing before God. You can either accept that as inevitable, or you can question whether if you just deny your mortal self a little bit more, the visions and blessings of old that people talk about will finally be manifested. So there can be a tendency to multiply religious duties, to set you apart from the quotidian world and give you a sense of specialness. For there to be a discernible “elect,” there has got to be a contrasting group of the non-elect — a “reserve army of the damned.” (“When everybody’s special, nobody’s special.”) In addition, there is a tendency for competition in ascetic abstinence. The Mormons don’t drink wine, and the Jews don’t eat bacon? The Muslims will see that and raise you abstinence from both. Someone else will see “We wear long underwear in hundred-plus-degree summer heat” and raise us an actual hairshirt. We don’t watch R-rated movies? The Amish don’t watch movies, period. We make a show of “coming out from Babylon”? The FLDS really come out. We abstain from premarital sex? The Jains and Shakers abstain from sex, period.

Thus, the idea that there is an unchecked tendency towards laxity in religion is incorrect. There are also impetuses to seek more demanding religious practices. Primitive people didn’t go from rudimentary ceremonial burials to human sacrifice by taking religion too lightly. Left unchecked, the impetus towards extremism in religious practices can be destructive.

On the other hand, I think there is some value in ritualistic religious observance — i.e., observing religious duties that seem to have no connection to everyday love-thy-neighbor morality. By observing practices that really make no sense, we confess the limitation of our mortal understandings. These practices, then, symbolize a belief that God is a being whose kingdom is not of this world — that we need something that genuinely transcends our experience, to come into this world and redeem it. No matter how hard we strive to make the world a better place, evil will always prevail to some extent. By doing something that seems completely random, like wearing garments or abstaining from tea, maybe we are supposed to be reinforcing our hope for salvation from a Source whose reality is radically different from what we experience.

That said, I think a religion has to be careful to limit its demands for “random” abstinences or observances. Once the symbolic communication has been made, further repetition starts to get numbing — just like the effect of watching the same commercial twenty times in a row.

If they actually get joy from it, what’s the problem?

Another amen! from the peanut gallery.

There is an emotional intelligence instrument that measures hedonism, and I always score high on that scale. The risk, from an emotional intelligence perspective, is that you may get less done in a work setting, and you may have poor impulse control and negatively impact the people who have a lower hedonism score (or be held back by them). And one’s hedonism can change over time. But in general, I feel that people who are too in love with an abstinence mindset are getting joy from feeling superior or from their imagined rewards for the same.

I wrote poorly, I think.

I continue to be troubled by the “abstain or else” preaching. But now, because of my own family’s experience, I acknowledge that the most drastic result is not as distant for me as it once was.

That I’m troubled by it doesn’t mean I don’t understand why some well-meaning people may still use that argument, however unsatisfactory it may be.

Oh — the meat thing: famine only? What about winter and times of cold?

This is my vote. Most people wouldn’t admit this because we’re viewed as hedonistic. I’m sure I’ve conjured all sorts of debauchery, lunacy and hedonistic mayhem with my vote. But what if….

My personal fulfillment included giving to people less fortunate than myself (it does), being true to myself, having integrity and being honest with others? My personal fulfillment included creating beauty, serving others, the environment, and having compassion toward those with different viewpoints than me?

My personal pursuit for meaning includes spending time with my children, serving them, loving them, accepting them; spending time with good friends and unconditionally loving them and enriching their lives? Enjoying “lusty delights” (twice this morning, how ironic)in order to deepen my intimacy, bond and spiritual connection with my partner. Who is a woman. I kid. It isn’t a woman, but what if it was, would that be wrong? Why? Because God said? God created everyone in his and her image. That means either god has a mate and they created together, or god is a hermaphrodite.

What if pursuing personal fulfillment included eating healthy, exercising, indulging only occasionally in alcohol for the pure pleasure of noting the different nuances in the wine I drink?

What if the only thing from which I abstain is judgment, moral pseudo-superiority and fast food?

Semantics? Perhaps. But perhaps this is the problem with the concept in the first place. Abstinence tends to engender a sense of moral superiority in people who are miserable. Face it, when a person feels morally superior and considers others inferior, he or she is not happy with themselves. Those who are happy with themselves are open and understanding toward those who are different.

I am a hedonist. I seek pleasure in all it’s forms. Being organized gives me pleasure. I am blessed with copious amounts of work. I enjoy accomplishing things; I revel in meaning what I say and saying what I mean. I celebrate my consistency and dependability. I avoid sugar so that my body is healthy.

I’m joyful, I’m comfortable in my own skin (brownies notwithstanding), I’m quite wacky (or wacko, take your pick), and love to explore and try new things that bring a sense of adventure and LIFE to my life.

The point of all of that is this: either/or is dangerous. Balance is the key, and in abstaining, using that word and having the mentality that certain things are “bad” therefore should be avoided is to quash the human spirit’s desire for experiencing new things. We enjoy colorful paintings because of all of the nuances of them; plain black or white doesn’t stir emotion the way color might. Most religions push black and white thinking as a means to differentiate between ‘good’ and ‘evil’. I say nothing is evil unless it’s done with the intent of hurting one’s self or another. Evil, and the concept of evil is when we take the dark parts of ourselves and externalize them, rather than own them and make a conscious choice to seek the light.

I have seen too many former Mormons pendulum swing to destruction because of the fallacy of abstinence and “evil”. I have seen too many Mormons over-indulge in “righteousness” or, to put a point on it, “Self-righteousness”.

I have always believed that men are that they might have joy.