Dear Ask Mormon Girl:
I am sure I will never find a Mormon guy who will make me happy, to marry in the temple. I am 20 years old, I’m not out of time, but I have a lot of problems with church and marriage in general. I was told all my life to accept it as the truth with no questioning, and that if you do everything “right” then you’ll be happy no matter what. I found that my parents never really were happy and when my dad came out of the closet, and my parents divorced, it proved me right, that doing what’s “right” doesn’t make you “happy.” I feel pressure to date only guys who are Mormons even though a Mormon guy wouldn’t understand me very well. I don’t have a very good “testimony” of the church, but honestly I would still like to get married in the temple, to an upstanding guy. I’m just not sure how to get there without denying my true feelings about men who think they’re “over” their wives, who expect their wives to fit the homemaker mold, and my feelings that marriage can’t work even, and especially, when founded on the teachings of the Mormon church.
Lizbeth
Dear, dear, dear Lizbeth:
So let me get this straight: You are 20 years old. You’ve grown up in the church, and you’ve noticed some things about gender relations between men and women in apparently orthodox Mormon marriages that you don’t think you could live with. And, perhaps most importantly, at some point in the relatively recent past, your father came out of the closet and your parents divorced.
Yeah, if I were you, I’d have some pretty strong reservations about marriage too.
As a dear friend recently observed, we Mormons are among the most marriage-fixated people on the earth. I suspect this comes in large part from the huge role marriage plays in our theology: orthodox Mormons believe you have to be married in a Mormon temple to get to the celestial kingdom (that’s the highest levels of heaven, where God lives—for you “gentiles” / non-LDS folks).
Unfortunately, this otherwise lovely and distinctive element of our theology has the power to send Mormons into terror when they or someone they love doesn’t marry, or marries “wrong,” or has marriage trouble.
We Mormons worry about marriage all the time. (Heck, I spent my entire freshman year at BYU in a silent panic about it.) But there’s something you really need to know, Lizbeth. And it’s so important for me to get this message across that I’m going to break one of the rules of writing on-line. I’m going to use the on-line “nuclear” option: ALL CAPS. Because when you write in ALL CAPS, people tend to think you’re yelling at them. I promise I am not yelling at you, but here goes:
YOU DO NOT HAVE TO GET MARRIED. EVER.
AND YOU DO NOT HAVE TO MARRY ANYONE OR IN ANY MANNER YOU FEEL IN YOUR HEART OF HEARTS IS NOT RIGHT FOR YOU. EVER. EVER. EVER.
Lizbeth, I know it’s important to you to get married to an upstanding guy, and it sounds like you want to marry an upstanding Mormon guy. Which would be wonderful. And it is totally possible. But for now, you need to lay the foundation for that marriage (or for whatever comes next) by taking care of yourself and getting to know your own mind, your own heart, and your own soul. It’s so important that you give yourself time to mend and grow that I’m going to go so far as to officially forbid you from worrying about getting married until you are 25 years old. Just cross that issue off your five-year-to-do-list. With a permanent Sharpie marker.
In the meantime, here are some other things you might put on your to-do-list, if you’re not doing them already:
1. Find a good therapist. If one or both of your parents have health insurance, you may still qualify for mental health benefits, or if you are in school (see point 3 below) there may be some free or low-cost mental health services for students. After seeing your parents’ marriage unravel and learning your dad was closeted all those years, you need what every sane person needs at least once in his or her life: a small, confidential room with a comfy couch where you pay a caring, trained professional to listen to you say sad, horrible, mean, and true things you can say nowhere else and help you sort out a path forward.
2. Buy a journal. Not a fancy journal. A notebook. Take it everywhere with you. Write. Write. Draw. Write until your soul is tired. And then write some more.
3. Get as much education as you possibly can, at the best schools you can manage to get into and pay for. Take the hardest classes you can, do the best that you can, and flirt with the smartest and nicest boys in the room. (Remember I said the smartest and nicest, not the cutest.) And while you flirt, remember that YOU DO NOT HAVE TO MARRY THEM.
4. Dream up and then take practical steps towards a career path that can pay your bills and give you a sense of purpose or contribution to the larger world.
5. Get a room of your own. Even if it is just a bedroom in a shared apartment. Furnish your own room however you please.
6. Download or buy an album by at least one of the following artists: Joni Mitchell, Neko Case, Tori Amos, the Runaways, Carole King, Cat Power, Feist, Janis Joplin, Aretha Franklin, Bjork, Mary J. Blige, Regina Spektor, Ani DiFranco, Dar Williams, Erykah Badu, Lauryn Hill, Jill Scott, Gwen Stefani, Patti Smith, Kate Bush, Tori Amos, Kim Deal, Lila Downs, Lola Beltran, Joan Jett, and others our readers will recommend. Play it really loud in the room of your own room (see 5). Sing loud, with reckless abandon.
7. Go to southern Utah. Zion’s. Bryce. Canyonlands. Capitol Reef. Calf Creek. Capitol Reef. Find some quiet and see some big horizons. Go alone if you must—use your head–goodness will find you. Pick up a pinch of sage or a little red sand from southern Utah in a jar (not from within National Park boundaries, please) and keep it in the room of your own (see 5).
8. Or, heck, don’t let the Utah border stop you: keep traveling. See as many places on this earth as you possibly can.
9. Somewhere—while driving by yourself on the highway—or under the arching roof of the library late at night—or while running your hands along the smooth sides of one of those red rock slot canyons in Southern Utah—or in a faraway crowded place–see if you can remember how to pray. See if you can pray for the first time in your own language. Pray not as the child you once were but as the broken-hearted young woman you are. Pray real. See what happens next. Keep praying. Trust.
10. Finally, please hurry turn your computer’s web browser to the amazing Feminist Mormon Housewives site, a space where women like you, Lizbeth, and me can sort through Mormon tradition’s unique take on gender in safe company. And tell ‘em AMG sent you.
Lizbeth, no one tells you that there’s a second puberty you go through in your 20s: soul puberty. It happens on the inside. And it hurts. It hurts when you discover that life so often does not turn out the way they told you it would. But it gets better when you discover that if you play your cards right, life may turn out way, way better than they told you. Not easier. Not without sorrow, or struggle. But yours to create.
Welcome to womanhood. I have faith in you. Stay in touch.
Love,
AMG
I like the description of it as a second puberty. That is well said.
the link to FMH doesn’t work.
The beauty of this post moved me to tears, and not much can do that for me these days. Thank you!
http://www.feministmormonhousewives.org/
Is it too late for me to start on that list? I’m turning 40 next month.
I’ll be turning 28 at the end of this summer and I am happily single. In fact, I broke off an engagement last July because she told me that she had no intention of keeping the temple covenants and looked at getting married as an escape from all of her problems and I would “take care of everything.” In short: I would have been crushed under the load.
I’m also in no hurry to get married for several reasons, but the main one is that I do not want to fall into the same trap that nearly all of the men in my family have fallen into: no matter what they do, the wife is NEVER satisfied. Be it little things or big, the wife has SOMETHING to complain about and there have already been two divorces. What’s the point of trying to improve oneself for the sake of the marriage and making sure the wife is complacent if it’s all done in vain?
Of course I also have to work to overcome an almost-crippling shyness when I do meet a gal I want to date.
When I read the question I immediately thought she needs to put any marriage on the backburner and work on discovering herself first. Then AMG answered the question precisely along those lines, albeit more beautifully than I would be able to manage. Well done.
“….no matter what they do, the wife is NEVER satisfied. Be it little things or big, the wife has SOMETHING to complain about and there have already been two divorces. What’s the point of trying to improve oneself for the sake of the marriage and making sure the wife is complacent if it’s all done in vain?”
Been married 35 years to the same woman. Trust me, Dave P., there are more good women out there than good men.
@s DAvid P
Just because your brothers’ marriage ended in divorce doesn’t mean yours was, In addition, it takes two to tango, meaning you probably don’t know the full story behind what really went on their marriages.
The best advice is not to become fixated about marriage. At 20, you are much too young to worry about it. While the Church teaches that marriage is a good thing and ordained of God, we do not taught that we should get married for the sake of being married, even though it seems that some Mission Presidents encourage their young missionaries to go home and get married.
Young women in particular should get a good education and be on their own for some time.
In my mind the rest of the advice given is questionable. Not bad, necessarily, but not great. Having the first one being getting therapy is a typical worldly response to every problem one encountered these days.
And, It also appears that AMG’s own life choices are heavily influencing her answer……
#8. I wasn’t very specific, but so far my brother’s marriage is one of the few exceptions I’ve seen. My poor cousins, on the other hand…
Wow. I am being so uplifted by the bloggernacle this morning!
I wish I had read this when I was 20. It took me 10 years to figure it out on my own. I second, third, and fourth steps 1 through 10. Spot on!
Lizbeth – Since putting this whole question on the backburner is likely much more easily said than done, I would suggest this: when you’re thinking about this issue, try to focus instead on what you believe about love. Discover your own feelings about love: what you want it to look and feel like, how you will be as both a giver and receiver of love, etc. I had similar concerns to yours – not the same, but similar – when I was your age. My parents divorced in my late teens and said that they had been unhappy since my early childhood. Every marriage looked so fake to me after that and I didn’t believe that anyone actually loved anyone, beyond the initial feelings of romance and sparks in the beginning of a relationship. After several years of soul searching, pondering, and yes, listening to Joni Mitchell, I learned a lot and came to understand what love meant to me and the role I hoped it would play in my life. AMG’s advice is wonderful. You’re going to learn so much in these next 5 years. You may even look back and find that they have been the most formative of all your years thus far.
One last thing: there are wonderful, amazing men out there. Men who understand your worth as a woman, who will not just “let” you, but who will WANT you to be free as much as you would want them to be free. Good luck to you – I wish you all the best!
I don’t see a problem for a couple to go to counseling, It lets them air problems out to a third party who is neutral, and therefore allows the couple to come to a mutual conclusion on how to handle situations on a respectful tone. I have friends who are married and go to counseling together not because something is wrong, but to discuss things that might pose a problem down the line if not resolved properly. They both swear by it
Well done, AMG. Well done.
Twenty year olds that are world weary and “know what the church/world/life is all about” are cute-like-a-kitten-that-thinks-its-a-big-cat sort of way.
I hope she takes Ms. Brook’s very good advice.
Well said, AMG. I would only add: damn the National Park boundaries! It’s a jarful of sand. A little rebellion, now and then, is a good thing.
“Or, heck, don’t let the Utah border stop you: keep traveling. See as many places on this earth as you possibly can.”
Great advice, I’d go further and say get out of Utah and the mountain west in general. Outside of those areas, there isn’t nearly the pressure to marry ASAP; that’s much more of a Utah LDS thing than a general church culture. I’m 28 and in Ohio and rarely get asked if I’m interested in the local singles branch and I get asked about my dating even less by LDS and non-LDS alike; quite refreshing after living in Rexburg for 3 years and visiting Utah frequently and constantly being asked by total strangers why I wasn’t married at 24 (or whatever age I was at the time) or making it sound like getting married is as easy as heading over to Wal-Mart. That’s not to say I never want to get married, but seriously, no point in getting married just for the sake of getting married. Enjoy the freedoms that single life can provide and let marriage come when (or if) it comes.
I know therapy sounds like a good idea, but I am not so sure. I have been to 2 therapists that I have been extremely disappointed with. (i would say they both made the situation worse, not better.) on the other hand, I have high praise for a grief counselor after my brother’s death, so they’re not all bad. but they’re not all good either. buyer beware.
I agree wholeheartedly with the statement/sentiment:
“YOU DO NOT HAVE TO GET MARRIED. EVER.”
Marriage is not the be-all end-all of happiness or fulfillment. I have met many people over the years, some married, some divorced, some never married. I have found no one path to happiness among those people.
20 is a great age. It’s a great time to have fun. To figure out what options are out there and what works for you. It’s a great time to figure out where you want to live, how you want to live, to get an education. I spent three months abroad when I was 20, and it was one of the best experiences of my life so far. All those options can seem overwhelming at times, but looking back on that age, there is more I wish I had done.
Finally, hope it’s okay for me to bring up here, but from my understanding temple marriages have the same rate of divorce that American society does – 50%. And I thought I read an article the other day that women who marry in their 30s are more likely to stay married – not sure how accurate that article or study was. And I’m not sure where that stands with mormon culture. With that said, it seems to me the goal is happiness, married or not, and happiness can be found inside or outside marriage or a committed relationship. Just my .02.
Remember, a “civil” marriage can later be sealed in the temple; leading to the Celestial Kingdom IF covenants are kept.
19 — Not sure where you read that statistic. A study in 2000 by Daniel Judd at BYU found the divorce rate among temple sealings to be only 6%. Maybe there’s newer data, but Judd’s number is significantly lower than the 50% you cite.
http://www.adherents.com/largecom/lds_marriage.html
Anyone read any numbers different from the 6%?
The cynic in me says if that number were right, it would be quoted ad nauseaum. The 50% is way too high, on the other hand.
I heartily agree with #2, 3, 4, and 8! 20 years old is too young to worry about marriage, and I recall determining at around that age that it would be hard to find a Mormon guy I could be happy with because of some of the same reasons listed above. I found through experience that there were a few types to avoid: 1) anyone who was controlling during dating, 2) anyone who cared too much what others think of him (who tried too hard to “look good” to people), 3) anyone whose family was totally messed up (by my own definition and to my own threshold) in a different way than my own family was messed up, 4) anyone who could picture moving back in with his parents at any point in married life, or 5) anyone who took himself too seriously or didn’t make me laugh. And there were guys like that who fit the bill. The key was to stop focusing on what I didn’t want, and to know myself well enough to know what made me happy. And when I was ready, there he was.
#23 — I really like your comment: “anyone whose family was totally messed up (by my own definition and to my own threshold) in a different way than my own family was messed up.”
I felt the same way when I was about 20 years old and starting to date. I grew up in a broken home, too, and I thought all Mormon boys would be too “goody goody” for me (or I wouldn’t be good enough for them). Boy, was I wrong! Holy cow…it was the opposite! I had a problem finding a guy that didn’t drink, wasn’t sexually active, wanted to get married in the temple, etc. I also realize as I get older, that the way you are feeling, and the things you are thinking, are not abnormal AT ALL in the Mormon church. Granted, you’ll still meet some yahoos who do believe some stupid stuff…but there are plenty of Mormon guys who feel EXACTLY the same way as you do. Mormon guys who grew up in broken homes themselves, or had a best friend who did…Mormon guys who are naturally empathetic and caring. Mormon guys who are feminists and want a partner, not a housewife. Trust me, there are ALL kinds out there. Having questions about subjects in the church is okay. You had it rough, and you’re young. I was in the same position and its so hard to feel like everyone else around has this perfect Mormon life. Trust me when I say it isn’t so. Everyone puts on a happy face, but they’ve all got skeletons in the closet. Be honest about your feelings and situation and you’ll be surprised at how many can relate and understand. I have found friends and a husband who love me and feel the same way I do, and we’re all active Mormons, married in the temple.
I realize that other people’s experiences are just what they experienced, it drives me crazy when people say “when I was ready, there marriage appeared!” Ding! Like magic!
The truth is, you may never get married, even if you want to. That’s life. Sorry, but it’s true. So it’s not just that you don’t have to get married if you don’t want to, you may not even get that choice. There are plenty of people for whom that’s true, and I’m not trying to just be all bitter; just realistic. Everything else is true too: find out who you are, what you want in life. Get educated and travel. But in doing so, know that all those awesome things you’re doing may “only” help you to find some really wicked awesome friends, not a soulmate. And that that’s okay. And it has nothing to do with the cold comfort of getting married in the afterlife. I don’t know what the answer is–heck, if I did, I’d be out finding a guy I matched with myself–but I do know that I’m tired of marital advice to 20-somethings that doesn’t acknowledge the simple fact that not everyone will have a chance to get married, even if they want to.
‘Lizbeth, I agree wholeheartedly with everyone else. At 20, you’d need not concern yourself that you’re not ALREADY married, unless your goal is life is to compete with Octomom.
Focus on your education, have some fun, travel, AND socialize. Do get some help regarding your upbringing. Unfortunately, you’re not the only kid out there that’d had one or both parents be flakes.
In general, to find the spouse that best suits you, you work on becoming the person that best suits yourself.
Wow. I am 20 now, and I’m not thinking about marriage for a long time, if ever.
Perhaps Dave P. needs to follow this same advice. If all the men in his family have chosen abusive spouses, that says there is something toxic in his family dynamics. He doesn’t recognise a family pattern of bad behaviour; he thinks this is some kind of reflection on women in genera. Perhaps he’d benefit from some therapy before he tries to get married.
@ #21 – Just because temple marriages have such a low rate of divorce does not mean the marriages are successful or happy. Plenty are, but plenty aren’t. Divorce is so heavily stigmatised among orthodox temple-attending Mormons that I think many unhappy couples just shoulder their burden and wait to cash in their Celestial voucher.
The advice given above would have greatly benefitted me when I was 20. I wish that I had someone in my life to tell me this when I had my Old Maid at 21 Crisis as a BYU student. Get some privacy. Dealing with your father’s coming out will take time and help. Do not ever feel ashamed by asking for help. Find some professional counseling — from someone with psychology qualifications, not someone who bases their therapy on LDS Doctrine such as a Bishop or an LDS Social Services counsellor. A good therapist will be able to help you within the framework of your religious beliefs, but base your sessions on good science.
stacer – “I realize that other people’s experiences are just what they experienced, it drives me crazy when people say “when I was ready, there marriage appeared!” Ding! Like magic!” That’s a totally fair point. My sister was ready for a long time before she settled on her husband. In my case, when I was ready, I found the right kind of guy, but I did kiss quite a few frogs (and was doubtless the frog in several scenarios myself). I dodged some bullets. There’s a degree of luck involved as well as preparation and self-awareness. Thanks for the reminder.
Re: counseling & mh: “I know therapy sounds like a good idea, but I am not so sure. I have been to 2 therapists that I have been extremely disappointed with.”
Buyer beware indeed! I totally hear you on this mh. I would NEVER walk in blind looking for a therapist for myself or for my relationship. When I have friends or family in other states inquire about therapy I ALWAYS ask people I know for referrals. Ask around, get a referral from someone you trust, etc.
You know what was really helpful for me in this stage of my life and dealing with the effects of a crappy childhood? Taking a major break from the whole dating scene. I sent out major “Do Not Touch” vibes and dyed my hair the craziest colors BYU would allow, and then chopped it all off and dressed like a punk to signal as loudly as possible that I was not on the market. It was a wonderful time.
Lizbeth, I’m a perma at Feminist Mormon Housewives, and we’d love to have you. Come on over and I’ll hold your hand the whole time.
Oh yeah, on a more lighthearted note I like to tell people that I committed all three of the deadliest sins at BYU while I was there and lived to graduate.
3. I did not attend a single sporting event. In fact, I didn’t even support the football team.
2. I never once paid a late fee at the testing center.
And, number one, of course:
1. I graduated without getting married!
Just wanted to pop back in with the statistics I was citing. Thanks Paul #21 for calling me on that – I needed to look that up myself and not make assumptions! In the 1999 barna study about marriage (which does not appear to be online), it looked like the divorce rate for LDS was around 24% (4000 adults??). I don’t know if that includes temple marriages or not. But I think others are correct, that 24% number is probably more likely than either my (way off) 50% number and the 6% number.
I wonder how the statistics are counted if a couple goes through a civil divorce but not a temple divorce. I wonder if that could account for the difference (6% have official temple divorces, 24% divorce through civil proceedings). There is probably additional research that can be done on this and other studies that may have more information. It’s just what I saw off the cuff.
Nothing much to add, but upon self reflection – Yes, get to know yourself before worrying over marriage in the abstract. Education and career paths are excellent focus items for persons in their early twenties. Experience dating and socializing without the need for imposing an agenda for marriage onto others.
MH and AdamF: I totally agree, buyer beware…however, even asking around is not a fool proof method. A counselor that works for one person will not automatically work for another…it is not like hiring a plumber. I think in most cases, unfortunately, it is trial and error, and several trials until you find a good one.
I have 2 teenager girls (15 and 17). They scare me to death when they say, “hey Dad…do you realize I’m only about 2 or 3 years away from being married!”
I have talked about not rushing into it…but their friends who are freshman in college and getting married seem so happy…they don’t know why I tell them to wait. Then they want to know if I say that because I’m not happy with their mom…and I don’t want to send that message.
Fact is…I struggle with how to help them see they have so much ahead of them and chances to study abroad or just find themselves before getting married…that there is no rush. They certainly feel their YW leaders stress the most important thing is marriage…so don’t put it off, and that scares me to death.
Is telling them to prepare for a mission at age 21 a good carrot to keep them looking at something worthwhile so they don’t rush into the must-marry-mentality???
I am 36 years old and have never been married and yeah, I sometimes worry about it, but you are 20 years old and too young worry about whether or not you will get married. The other thing is, there is nothing in Church doctrine that says if you do everything right that you will be happy no matter what. Hard experiences come to the good just as much as they come to the not so good and you are not going to be happy when that hard times come, but that also does not mean that you cannot keep a smile. There is also nothing in Church doctrine that says that you should not question what is taught, that is how you gain a testimony of the Gospel is by questioning. And again, there is nothing in the doctrine that men are “over” their wives, I mean it talks about this in the Declaration on the Family, which you might considering reading. Man and woman serve in equal capacity, but in different roles, not one over the other.
My parents went through a bitter, ugly, abusive divorce, but I came to realize that my family is not the only LDS family to go through this. So don’t think that many LDS guys will not understand, if you start asking and listening, you probably find many LDS men do understand because they have been through similar experiences, and if they don’t understand, don’t worry about it. I realize that the part on homosexuality is difficult to read and accept, (I have this issue in my family too, a little different though), but the best thing you can do is love your father and let the Lord take care of him.
You need to keep in mind that not everyone will get married or married in the temple in this life, but it is not all bad that bad. Worrying about being a life long single is not worth the time you spend worrying about it. I have found by talking to others who married in their early twenties, that I have had opportunities to do things that they have missed out on because of their marriage responsibilities. There will be many opportunities to do great things coming your way, look forward to them and embrace them when they come. Take time to work on building your spirit and your testimony, it will be the greatest thing that you can do for yourself and will help you to deal with some of the things that come with being single.
I commend you for trying to do the right thing and your want to marry in the temple and you will be bless for it. So don’t worry about it and keep going and doing what you need to do.
Hey Reese Dixon and my other FMH ladies! Thanks for traveling over to MM! And thanks everyone for such great support for Lizbeth.
I will be 35 years old in a couple of weeks. I was born and raised Mormon. I found a man I deeply love and whom deeply loves me in return. We have been together in a sexless relationship for 23 years, planning our marriage through out that entire time. I am not married. And I will tell you why: I have Autism, and therefor I am not allowed to get a temple recommend.
I have had Autism at least since I was 4 years old, probably since I was born. At age 12, along with all the rest of the Young Women in my Ward, I did family history research and made ready for my first temple trip. When the week came for us to have our interviews to get our temple recommends, I alone was excluded, told by my Bishop that, because I was retarded, I could not even get an appointment for the interview, let alone ever get a temple recommend.
Every year that has passed since that day, I have gone to my bishop seeking a temple recommend. And as most bishops are bishop less than 2 years, over the years, I have now gone to 16 different Bishops through my Ward. I’m still in the same Ward, we have had a lot of Bishops. As with that first bishop, so many years ago, I am always told the same thing:
“I will not set up an appointment to interview you. You have a mental illness and are retarded. Even if you do pass the interview, I still can not give you a temple recommend, because you lack the mental competency to understand what goes on inside, and we can not all retards to inter the temple.”
My high priest boyfriend, has even asked if they would give me a temporary “one day recommend” just long enough so we could be married. Each Bishop has said “No.”
As a result of my Autism, I have a “problem” of being “over obedient” resulting in my being the strictest most gospel adhering Mormon any other Mormon has ever met – a fact that gets told to me by hundreds of members over and over again, though out the years. They are always “amazed” at my extreme devotion to the gospel, and say they strive to one day be “a model Mormon” like they say I am. They than ask, how often I go to the temple, and are shocked to hear the answer and why. Than they think about it and add “You know, I never have seen any one with a mental deformity in the temple…can’t say as I’ve ever seen any one with Autism in the temple before, come to think of it, you never seen Downs Syndrome patents either… I wonder if people in wheelchairs are allowed in, can’t say as I’ve seen that either….”
Than they puzzle and muse and rack their brain trying to think of all the mental and physical disabilities they know, and try to remember if they’ve ever seen any disability mental or physical in the temple. Than they tell me they can’t remember ever seeing any type of disabled person in the temple, and tell me “Well, at least you are not alone.” Like that is supposed to make me feel better?
How is telling me “Well, at least you are not alone,” supposed to make me feel better? How does it justify the fact that there are laws against this sort of discrimination?
I’ve seen people with sin, men who cheat on their wives, men who drink vodka, people who listen to em`n`em’s sex filled drug promoting music, people who watch Austin Powers (one of the 2 movies the Church banned – The Passion being the other one), all not only get temple recommends but come back from the temple and than laugh and joke about how they “lied and got in anyways”, like it was some sort of a game with them, that meant nothing!
And me? What have I done? I have lived the gospel to the letter. I’ve always done everything the Church teaches me to do. I’ve always been obedient and faithful and righteous, but because I was born with Autism I’m not only not allowed to do any temple work, I’m not even allowed to get married! Do you have any idea how much it hurts to know that I WILL NEVER BE ALLOWED to get married, because I was born with Autism?
It’s not fair. The Church has made us wait 23 years, and it looks like they will make us wait a life time. He stands by me and I stand by him, and we want to be married and raise a family, but until medical science finds a cure for Autism, the Church will not allow it.
EelKat, that doesn’t make sense to me. My mom is schizophrenic and has never been denied a temple recommend because of her mental illness. She was my escort through the temple when I received my endowment. I’ve never heard of such a rule.
Oh, and I’ve worked in the temple, and have many times helped disabled people as a temple worker. It’s simply not true that disable people aren’t allowed in the temple. In fact, the Laie Hawaii Temple is currently being renovated to bring it to code for disabled patrons. There would have to be some other factor at play.
AMG,
My wife thanks you. At 20 she followed similar advice. She got her education and had a career that took her all over the world. When we married she was late 20s, me early 30s. By that time we understood that it is not WHERE you marry that is important, it is WHO you marry and what YOU bring to the relationship (sorry for the caps, AMG started it).
“people who watch Austin Powers (one of the 2 movies the Church banned – The Passion being the other one)”
What the hey?
Heber13 “even asking around is not a fool proof method. A counselor that works for one person will not automatically work for another…” True, to some extent… also, I should add that me “asking around” I would be talking to other therapists. Generally we have a pretty good sense of each other. I agree though, even the best therapists don’t can’t help everyone in every case.
EelKat
I think there is something really wrong here. Now I don’t know everything, but I go to Church with a young man who has Autism and he is endowed, and his Autism seems pretty severe. I know because I have been in many a temple session with him. I also have a friend in a wheelchair and she goes to the temple all the time. The bishop would not allow her to have a temple recommend due to her disability and it really hurt her. She cried to me so I talked to our Relief Society president and all of us talked to the bishop to help him understand that she still needed to go to the temple regardless of her wheelchair and the aid that she would need. He had a hard time seeing past the wheelchair to the daughter of God sitting in it. But we all have that problem at one time or another. He then gave her a recommend.
If it is an issue of worthiness, well you need to deal with it, but if the issue is your circumstance and health, well like I said I think there is there is something wrong. It sounds like there is a break down in Church communication. It sounds like you need to take it further than your bishop, but don’t go over his head. But if you feel that you are worthy, take it as far as you can, to prophet if you have too.
And never say never! If it takes a temporal marriage to get to an eternal marriage, if you feel it is the right thing for you and the man that you love, then you can do it. There is nothing wrong with that. I say, get as close as you possibly can to what you want and worthy of and let the Lord make up the difference. It is all just part of the journey. I think many members of the Church think that getting married in the temple right off the bat is the only way to attain an eternal marriage, but it is a step, not a guarantee. And some of us have to take more steps than others do, and I don’t think the Lord has a problem with that. And also keep in mind that the Church does change when the Lord needs it to, like with the priesthood and who could and could not hold it, a revelation came from the Lord in the 70s saying that every worthy man can hold the priesthood, when before that only the white men were allowed to hold it. So even if the Church does not allow it now, the Lord is aware of your needs and will take care of your needs, which COULD mean that He will allow your temple marriage in His time.
I not trying to promote marriage outside the temple, but it is a “step” to consider. Just keep asking and living for that temple recommend and doing all that you can. Just keep in mind that the journey of life is full of chasms with bridges, but sometimes you have to find the bridge to cross the chasm.
Eel kat
Austism is not mental illness. If you really want to go to the temple, you should write to your area 70 rep, or directly to salt lake. The church professes to the fact that they don’t discriminate, but to me this smacks of discrimination. From your writing you seem to be pretty highly functional, Maybe you should try to write your bishop a letter. he would clearly see your intelligence then. I sure did, and I’m sure the others who have read your post have also seen it.
Even if autism were a mental illness (and it’s not), people with mental illnesses enter the temple every day.
I suggest you look at her website and things might become more clear:
http://eelkat.wordpress.com/
A good place to look for help might be your local Affirmation chapter. They might be able to relate to your father and give you some perspective about his experience.
There is also a self-help group of Mormon women who were married to gay Mormon men. Perhaps somebody can help me with the name, please.
As always, never listen to one person but get a good number of experiences. That way, you can sort out what applies to you and what does not.
Lastly, have you ever considered taking a year off? You could spend it in Rome or in the merchant marines or whatever you like. (But don’t forget to go back to college. LOL).
Marriage is ordained of God, not required in this life. What is required of all regardless of individual circumstances and frequently gets lost in marriage or mission preparation, is the individual covenant, the endowment. This covenant is linked to and a significant part of the marriage sealing but it stands alone as well. Individuals who make this covenant with God are individually promised Celestial Glory as a son or daughter of God. Should they find a worthy mate in this life they can be sealed and both receive together the intended blessing of the individual covenant they made perviously when endowed. This blessing requires individual obedience to the endowment covennat which hopefully happens in the environment of a happy marriage, but sadly at times does not. While all should be seeking an eternal companion, some will be successful and some will not. Some will find that companion later in life, some after death. It is the endowment covenant that requires and rewards personal obedience. It is the temple covenant YW in the Church should be equally preparing themselves for should marriage come or not come to them in mortality. I hope it does for Lizbeth
We should also remember that everyone’s story, experience, capabilities, influences, environment and desires are different. Not all WE experience in this life is immediately applicable or even transferrable to others.
on the question of finding a therapist: take that old advice to try again to heart. i saw seven different doctors in the space of a year before finding one that was good for me. it was worth every single frustrating and/or painful and/or unproductive and/or insulting session with the first six to find my current doctor. What people don’t bother telling you when they suggest therapy is that you don’t have to put up with a therapist that’s not working. With a couple of doctors, I knew right away it wouldn’t work out so I made a change. With a couple, things were better but not great, with a couple their life circumstances made it necessary for me to change practitioners. In the end it worked out. And I didn’t get a single recommendation. I just hit a hard enough bottom that I knew I needed to persist until I’d gotten some help, real help.
nice threadjack eelkat…reading your blog makes me feel like I’m reading some Tolkin-esqe saga of endless perceived hate and maliciousness. I doubt your church leaders call you a “retard” and until you were more doctrinally based I can see some reason to withold a reccommend.
Back to 20 and unmarried.
Lisbeth your testimony has been rocked because the truths you thought you saw in your parents were actually two people (well, at least one) who just didn’t let the truth change them. Doing what is right doesn’t bring immediate happiness tis true but it does bring it in the end, that’s what is meant that the Spirit speaketh thing as they are and as they really will be.
So the indulgence of sin may feel exciting now, it will not always feel that same way just ask anyone who has emphysema from smoking as a minor example. I sat on a diciplinary council of a man who came out after having a temple marriage and kids. After finally contracting aids he decided living the commandments while difficult before, was more rewarding than a life of indulgence and suddenly his SGA was controllable.
Shopping, travel, laying on beaches, touching red sandstone and listening to Joan Jett or Tori Amos are all feel good things but what if Abraham Lincoln or Thomas Edison decided to do feel good stuff over hard effort and sacrifice? Okay I love music too but what a jaded list of all female singers some of which were and still are just pawns in money making schemes…but that’s another blog entry.
I’m sorry your father succumbed to his temptations but that’s really all he did, let his appetites exceed his willpower. Sure get yourself educated and think and act like an eternal single while keeping an eye out for guy who is patient and kind and has similar goals.
As for your waivering testimony search on your own in the scriptures and through those men known as prophets and the church leaders who are called as leaders by inspiration (like YW/RS leaders). I see more well educated sisters in those roles than strict barefoot and pregnant housewives who never self improve. If the church is true the answers that satisfy your soul will be found in the doctrines they preach, don’t fall for the anti “look at everything” crowd until you know you have a handle on the doctrines of the church.
Having a testimony based on blind faith is also a fallacy that sounds like it was perpetuated by people making up their own doctrine, ALL testimonies of truth must by definition come from the Holy Spirit.
Be patient and put inside of you through study, action and prayer whatever you want in your eventual mate.
“Okay I love music too but what a jaded list of all female singers some of which were and still are just pawns in money making schemes…but that’s another blog entry.”
I actually typed, but deleted, in my first response, a commendation for not including the ghastly Alanis Morisette in that list….
I’m 46 years old and I’ve never been married. At this point in my life I have a better chance of being killed by a terrorist.
I’d rather be happy and alone, than married and miserable. To me, it seems much easier to get married, than to get divorced. Even though the church tells me I’m less than because I’m not married. I don’t by into it. I won’t let myself be bullied into any situation that I don’t want and that includes marriage.
Wow. AMG, thank you for your response to sweet Lizbeth. My eyes are brimmed with tears. I’m in the midst of these twenty something, soulful growing pains, and it was beautiful to read your reassuring words. Best of luck Lizbeth.
First, for Lizbeth: I know it might seem easy for some of us to say don’t be in a hurry to marry, but there’s good reason for it. Look at Wendy Watson in the Church, for one. I can’t begin to tell you if you will marry in the Temple, or Civilly, or never get married. Yes, it would be good to travel around, and get other perspectives on life.
…if you do everything “right” then you’ll be happy no matter what.
It’s too bad that this is taught/implied so often. In the far down the road sense, there is truth to this, but while we’re mortal, there very few guarantees of what will happen to us. The late Carlfred Broderick had a wonderful article about this subject some years ago.
The only 100% things for ALL mortals, no matter what they do, that I can identify are:
Death, Resurrection, Judgment, and Exaltation for those who die before the age of 8. There is the promise of blessings if were are faithful, but these blessings may not all come in mortality. Beyond this, there is nothing that guarantees getting married while mortal, for example. There is the promise of it at a future point if we are faithful.
…someone with psychology qualifications, not someone who bases their therapy on LDS Doctrine such as a Bishop or an LDS Social Services counselor.
Molly: I know one Counselor at LDS Family Services I got help with seemed to be top notch. And, I think they do have to have some Professional qualifications. Bishops should refer those with detailed issues to them.
Now, for disabilities: While it’s hard to tell if there’s other issues that would affect one’s worthiness to be Endowed from a distance, I know there are people in wheelchairs in the Temples often. I even remember a YW in a wheelchair performing baptisms for the dead, a bit of a struggle to do, but it was done.
As a Father of 2 high functioning autistic sons, and being slightly autistic myself, this issue hits home. It looks like they won’t be able to serve full time missions, for one thing. But, they were baptized, and know generally right from wrong, so there would be no need to withhold future Temple Blessings from them. I’m not sure if they will get married, either.
Also, here’s the LDS Disabilities website:
http://disabilities.lds.org/disabilities/eng/
And, the 6% LDS Divorce rate seems too low, even among active LDS members. I can believe the 24% statistics.
54 dblock: You write: “Even though the church tells me I’m less than because I’m not married….”
I’m sorry that you have the perception that the church teaches that you are less because you are not married. That is clearly inconsistent with very public statements from church leaders over the last many years in which they have repeatedly stressed that all blessings will be available for those sisters who do not marry in this life, but honor their covenants, including all blessings associated with the temple sealing.
@ paul
Here’s the thing. I understand completely what your saying to me. And I appreciate your thoughts. The church leaders do say that. But then scripture tells us that even though I can live and keep all covenants, that I won’t even qualify for the celestial kingdom. So, it is indirectly telling me that no matter how good I am, it doesn’t matter. I’m still going to be locked out
#59 dblock — But I think the counsel we’re given in relation to those scriptures is that while the sealing ordinance is essential, if it does not come in this life that does not necessarily mean that one would not qualify for all the blessings promised — in fact it affirms that all blessings will be available.
For instance, Elder Scott said: “If you are single and haven’t identified a solid prospect for celestial marriage, live for it. Pray for it. Expect it in the timetable of the Lord. Do not compromise your standards in any way that would rule out that blessing on this or the other side of the veil. The Lord knows the intent of your heart. His prophets have stated that you will have that blessing as you consistently live to qualify for it. We do not know whether it will be on this or the other side of the veil. But live for it. Pray for it” (“Receive the Temple Ordinances”, General Conference April 1999).
http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=ff2f84d4a0a0c010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD
And President Benson:
“I also recognize that not all women in the Church will have an opportunity for marriage and motherhood in mortality. But if those of you in this situation are worthy and endure faithfully, you can be assured of all blessings from a kind and loving Heavenly Father—and I emphasize all blessings” (“To the Single Adult Sisters of the Church”, General Relief Society Meeting, October 1988).
http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=59a927cd3f37b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD
I graduated from BYU without being married and therefore, was eligible for participation in a survey that was happening on campus. I gladly participated but I’m still not sure how I feel about that.
On a serious note: I LOVE the advice given – in fact much of it I feel still very much applies whether single, married, young, old, etc. The ongoing process of recreating our lives!
And in regards to all the therapist comments:
All the current research shows that the #1 thing that makes therapy successful is the comfort level/bond that a client has with their therapist. This tops interventions, technique, style, etc.
So I completely second the comments made on finding a therapist you feel comfortable with and moving on if you don’t.
dblock – “But then scripture tells us that even though I can live and keep all covenants, that I won’t even qualify for the celestial kingdom.” That’s not an accurate representation of that doctrine. JS also taught that righteous men & women who would qualify for CK would have the opportunity. That was taught from the beginning. Now, clearly there’s some mixed blessing in there as he was also practicing polygamy at the time and there’s some interpretation that polygamy was the means to that end; however, he seemed to have a unique view of sealing the whole human race together that was subsequently modified under BY. So I wouldn’t be too concerned about marriage in this life or not. Either way, a God who loves you won’t want you to be miserable or “less than.” And Sis. Thomson of the Gen RS Presidency is also unmarried. I don’t think anyone considers her unworthy of every blessing contingent on her own faithfulness.
I would suggest that the only thing we know of with certainty is death. That’s it.
It used to deeply bother me when people would try to console me by saying that I “would have *every* blessing in the next life” if I remained a good little spinster until I died. What were they really trying to suggest, however obliquely? That I would have sexual fulfillment in the next life if I stayed a virgin throughout my life (or bitterly, tearfully confessing to a roomful of married men each time I slipped up).
i finally decided that if a bunch of mostly middle aged and old men who had had decades of access to sex and companionship couldn’t conclusively tell me that “…all…blessings (dramatic pause)” included a fulfilling sex life, i would take my chances!
That I would have sexual fulfillment in the next life if I stayed a virgin throughout my life… …i finally decided that if a bunch of mostly middle aged and old men who had had decades of access to sex and companionship couldn’t conclusively tell me that “…all…blessings (dramatic pause)” included a fulfilling sex life, i would take my chances!
chris anthem ‘s mum: Just because someone is married does NOT mean they have a fulfilling sex life!! And, for instance, my sister in law had a wonderful sex life with her husband, but still got divorced.
Mike H.:
Of course not all marrieds have a fulfilling sex life. The point is that a *fulfilling* sex life should be one of those supposed blessings im the afterlife, otherwise what’s the point?
Great post. Remember, Lizabeth, that sometimes wallowing in identity misery can make things worse, not better. All of the women I know who lurk over on FMH are in the process of leaving the church and are miserably depressed. I don’t intend to get into a discussion about correlation and causation here–but sometimes looking into the abyss is the wrong thing to do–there is a political/theological bias over there. I think sites like these can be good, as well as the rebellious anti-thesis nature of the alternative/feminist raging, but do it as a check. Remember hymns, scriptures, prayer, and above all, humility in the discovery of your own repressions. We are all repressed to some extent, even us white males have our repressions, if we’re nerds, poor, ugly, or short.
I was 31 when I married. My wife and I are equal partners and equally yoked. Decisions are made as a partnership. We are not perfect in our spirituality, be we are both committed to improvement. Take care.
LOVED THIS. Thank you.
Peter – maybe it’s because they’re only lurking and not actively engaging with the problems they’re finding. Assuming that feminists don’t also exercise hymns, scriptures, prayer and humility is startlingly inaccurate.
“YOU DO NOT HAVE TO GET MARRIED. EVER.
AND YOU DO NOT HAVE TO MARRY ANYONE OR IN ANY MANNER YOU FEEL IN YOUR HEART OF HEARTS IS NOT RIGHT FOR YOU. EVER. EVER. EVER.”
Amen Sister!
There are so many facets to this poor girl’s question that I could write dissertations on each. Though AMG did a great job at giving her beautiful advice, I’d like to address a couple of more things.
1. The hegemony of members of The Church has got to stop pressuring twenty-somethings to get married. As you said, there is a second puberty that happens emotionally. But I don’t think this always happens in your twenties. The combination of Church pressure, my parent’s household, and my personality created a situation where I am just now, at age 38, learning how I feel about this world and my place in it. And that is after suffering each birthday being reminded that I am “a menace to society,” thank you very much Brigham Young. That all of my worth as a human being is dependent on my ability to woo a girl and make her marry me in the temple is unfair and nowhere in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I’m willing to bet that her father married at 21, right off his mission, thinking that if he just forced himself into this mold then his “deviant” feelings would go away. Years later, without proper guidance and therapy her dad can no longer stand the confinement of the mold and is creating this chasm which his daughter is falling into.
2. The Church really needs to open their mind about homosexuality. It is not enough to simply say, “don’t act on it.” That only gives the emotions boundless power and leads to the thousands of situations like this girl’s father. I’ve seen it over and over. We need to be able to address it openly and remove guilt and shame from the discussion. All conflicts are surmountable with open discussion and forgiveness.
3. The World needs to get over this ridiculous idea that you are “gay” or you are not. And we need to stop diminishing people by saying things like, “He’s totally gay. look how he dresses.” Even the Gay Community needs to stop belittling their own by exclaiming, “Oh that’s so gay.” Creativity, tenderness, meekness, love of beauty and art are all characteristics inherited by our heavenly parents. Our human parents make us feel bad about having these traits because they don’t comply with some concocted ideal of manhood. Then we feel guilty and shameful and try to mask those traits that are so inherently beautiful. Please give people the room to grow and explore themselves before shutting it down with a derogatory label. There’s no way this world could have been created if God’s father said, “Ah geez, are you still designing new flowers? Only sissies do that.”
So,Lizbeth, heed AMG’s advice. And don’t be so quick to judge the people you encounter or the way that they solve problems. Someone may have a better method or one that relates to your sensibilities better. And it’s an opportunity to remember the often forgotten first half of the quip “BE IN THE WORLD.” Enjoy.