Heh. True. “A herd of independent minds.”

Although you could then ask whether that group truly values independence, or just the appearance of it.

I don’t know if that is necessarily true, or if it is that when authority is the binding factor, it is easier to label. I don’t think that people who value “independence” are often truly as independent as they would like to think. There is always some binding ideal of some kind or other, or there would not be a group to begin with. Even if each member has differing interpretations of that ideal, eventually one interpretation becomes the defining one by democracy or committee. Take any social movement that eschews authority in favor of independence: goths, punks, etc. Sometimes such groups are the most vicious to those who they perceive as deviating from their ideals or brand image.

Did you see the movie, “The Crucible” with Daniel Day Lewis, Joan Allen, and Winona Ryder? A good dramatization of a process where circumstances prevent the rational solution from becoming the solution. Great performances.

Re #13 and 14

So do you think “extermination” was a common term of threat in that time period? Has anyone ever done any word searches in period documents to see how the term was batted around? It is certainly possible that it was nineteenth century drama exemplified, I had not ever thought of that before. And maybe Boggs meant nothing by the order of the options. I was just now looking at the photo image of the order on wikipedia. I wonder if it was penned personally by Governor Boggs or by an assistant. The handwriting looks very neat. The Bogg’s signature seems to match the rest of the handwriting.

The film will be showing at Sunstone on Saturday the 7th during the first two sessions of the morning. I would welcome any questions or comments there or here. Cool discussion.

I think rigdon’s extermination remark was more bluster than intent. he was really trying to stand up for mormons and indicated we were fighting back now.

I’ve read this before but was struck in the order of Bogg’s options: exterminate FIRST and the alternative being driven from State if necessary. Not a logical progression–if the first option worked, then you wouldn’t need the second as he laid them out. Did he place the option of being “exterminated” before the option of being driven from the state in direct response to Sidney Rigdon’s challenge? Was he, in this following imagined extrapolation, implying:

“the Mormons must be treated as enemies, and must be exterminated (if according to Mr. Rigdon–one party or the other must be exterminated) OR driven from the State (which, unlike Mr. Rigdon’s demand is much more palatable) if necessary for the public peace.

Yes. Ironically, this happens most in a group that values authority. Because then everybody’s incentive is to show how dedicated to authority they are, by taking ever more extreme positions. There is no real brake on this process.

On the other hand, in a group which values independence, there is an inherent brake on a runaway I’m-more-independent-minded-than-you cycle: the potential that the members get so independent, that the group just splinters and disappears.

Most of the time, it seems to me that this phenomenon occurs because, first, a group of people feel threatened. They then band together for safety and create a sort of feedback loop, a crucible wherein their feelings become concentrated and stoked because they are being validated by others who feel the same way. It is during this crucible phase that groundwork is laid. Then, the feelings ignite into panic because they have made an emotional whirlwind out of several smaller dust devils. They believe that the perceived threat is large enough that they must not only prepare to defend, but to take initiative on the attack, striking before they are struck.

I think the best link to break in this chain of events would be at the beginning, in the banding-together phase. If a rational element can be inserted successfully at that point, a sort of breakwater, if you will (let’s count how many analogies I incorporate into this post, shall we?), the tensions can be diffused before they careen out of control. That rational element could be anything from a meeting of opposite sides to a wise leader inserting calming guidance at the right time.

But either way, the moral panic is not the cause. It is the closed-loop feedback that is the cause.

Anyways, just a few thoughts.

The odd thing is, many or most “jihadists” are not the wretched of the earth the conventional wisdom imagines them to be. (And of course if “difficult lives” were what made terrorists, sub-Saharan Africa would be the focus of the problem, not the relatively well-fed Arabs.) Certainly the leadership tend to be well-off. (Medical doctors are extraordinarily overrepresented among them.) You saw the same thing in the French Revolution — it wasn’t the truly destitute who made the Terror, it was the second-tier self-imagined intellectuals, embittered with frustration that their obvious gifts weren’t being properly rewarded, who were the true fanatics.

“Moral panic” is more likely to come from cultural frustration, than personal economic desperation (which seems to be Hawkgrrl’s larger point.) While an Arab medical doctor may personally be doing fine, his own prosperity is not all that goes into his identity. He has a cultural identity, too — and he sees his culture, which his religion conditions him to believe is based on God’s own revealed prescription for ordering a good society, as stagnating in contrast to the wicked secular world society. He has two choices: (1) Adjust his religious thinking, or (2) conclude that his righteous society is only being kept out of its rightful place by the efforts of satanic enemies. Thence the whiff of cordite that’s often found among proud but backward peoples. Nietzschean ressentiment writ large.

I found this discussion of Haun’s Mill fascinating. A while ago, I wrote a song, called “Martyrs”. It cites the book of Mormon story of Alma and Amulek, Haun’s Mill, and Carthage. I did some research as I was writing the song, and became quite interested in the event, and the points leading up to it. It’s not always as clear-cut as “good guys” vs “bad guys”.

The song can be accessed as a free download (with lyrics) at this address: http://www.markhansenmusic.com/2009/10/martyrs.html

I’d welcome any comments, pro or con.

Thanks for your indulgence.

Mark

Do you see any comparisons?