I would very much agree that the scholarship of past generations is considered incorrect today. Which is my point. Every round of criticism and analysis has shifts in what it considers certain and definite. What some took as definite you now see as so out of touch with what is currently believed as to be a miss-characterization.

Hmm, sounds similar to a certain church and group of leaders who claim that revelation is ongoing. As you’ve said, I think we need to pay attention to the scholarship, as well as our leaders, but keep it in the back of our mind that it might not be quite right and will likely be revised or redacted later.

Re #8

The process of how scholarly opinion reaches various segments of the public and comes to be accepted wisdom, even when it is shown by later research to be dead wrong might be an interesting study.

Absolutely. Additionally, research into what causes so many supposedly independent “experts” to draw incorrect conclusions would be a nice corollary.

You are right, I did over simplify. I really do think we should pay attention to scholarship on the Bible, I think it greatly enriches our understanding and application. I’m not calling for us to become Philistines in the alternative sense (the definition I quoted), just to be more nuanced in our acceptance.

Thomas, I’ve actually been reading about the purple/green study and what it implies. Sobering how racism can develop.

RACIST!!!!

I’m sure the Philistines (which I realize are an enigmatic group that in some ways are difficult to define), just like Israel and others, had their own literature, but I am puzzled by your reference to “Philistine literature.” Can you please tell me what literature you are referring to, as I am unaware of any literature known as “Philistine” literature?

There was early criticism that claimed Jericho never existed. I’m well aware that since then, since Jericho has been found, that the analysis has shifted. But I’m talking about my introduction to the topic, and that was at the level that Jericho never existed, prior to later developments. I don’t think anyone believes that higher criticism hasn’t shifted, though minimalists still abound (I recently read through a number who insist that there was no David, that Solomon is really a local deity whose temple was later confused with the house of David, etc.).

Early analysis of the Psalms differs from the later. You will note that I mention that my encounter with the early analysis came in the context of the Psalms showing a continuation of ideas and interaction with local cultures, which is the current approach. But the reading I encountered definitely was about at the level of Black Athena and claims that the material was just stolen by culturally deprived Hebrews.

You make nice comments about the Documentary Hypothesis. The poetic structures I was reading about were ones in the first five books, especially creation and other narratives. You are right that the tools are useful to apply to other places, though the other texts require different compositional theories.

I would very much agree that the scholarship of past generations is considered incorrect today. Which is my point. Every round of criticism and analysis has shifts in what it considers certain and definite. What some took as definite you now see as so out of touch with what is currently believed as to be a miss-characterization. I’ll agree it was really wrong, but it really was pretty much what they were expressing (just like the scholars who insisted that Baal was a sun god). Many things are out of date. Assyro-Babylonian anyone?

Finally, Sometimes we need to be careful about making assumptions regarding things that we may in reality know little about. — that was the point I was trying to make. It is much too easy to accept without realizing that we are buying into assumptions about things we know little about and that are not necessarily as certain or definite as they appear.

The problem isn’t that Jericho never existed (it has been around since approx. 9,000 BCE), but that the narrative about Joshua and the Israelites conquering Jericho isn’t exactly historically accurate in its telling based on what we know archaeologically (e.g. there is a destruction layer, but not one that really dates to the time-frame required by the biblical text). The arguments and debate are more detailed than this and you shouldn’t point to the vague “German Higher Criticism” to make an implied that biblical scholarship/archaeology is totally unfounded in its claims.

“There is a body of hymns to Ba’l that the higher criticism bunch claimed proved that the ancient Hebrews just stole all of the psalms and other literature from.”

This is a mis-characterization of and simplification of what scholarship says about the relationship between Israelite poetry and Ugaritic poetry. Rather, some of the Psalms show dependence and continuation of ideas and literature that was part of the world that Israel interacted with. Is it too much to believe that a culture would show any sort of influence from its neighboring culture and peoples, even to the extent of literary allusions, parallels, and sometimes dependence? This doesn’t mean it was “stolen.”

“…the writing plays off the Philistine literature to highlight the differences.”

Not sure what you are referring to here by “Philistine” literature. I am not aware of any Philistine literature; are you referring to Ugaritic literature, which is where Ba’al figures prominently? If so, these are two entirely different cultures.

“As for the documentary hypothesis, I actually really started looking at the documentary hypothesis in the context of poetic structures it misses (though I do see how it fits in with LDS theology and provides some useful analysis).”

If you want to know some basics about the evidence for the Documentary Hypothesis from the standpoint of a popular summary, you should take a look at the introduction of Richard Elliot Friedman’s “The Bible with Sources Revealed.” I don’t agree with all of his source divisions, but his summary of the evidence should be enough to demonstrate the cogency of the argument. The DH is something that has been hotly debated in recent times, and if one wants to look at one of the more sophisticated arguments for it, Joel Baden’s “J, E, and the Redaction of the Pentateuch” is a good read. The purpose of the monograph is more about disproving a certain widely-held theory about the DH, but it has some excellent material on the history of DH scholarship as well as a good summary of some methodological points and a summary of the transmission and compilation of the Pentatuech. Also, I noticed you mentioned the DH in connection with your examination of “poetic structures”, and I wanted to mention that the DH is a theory that applies to the Pentateuchal narratives and not to the rest of the biblical text. It is an often misunderstood point that needs to be remembered because there are those that try to discount it by using its methodology and assumptions to explain other texts that it doesn’t work with. The DH is a specific theory to explain a specific set of issues with the narratives of the Pentateuch and though there have been those in the past that have tried to apply it to other portions of the Bible unsuccessfully, most now realize that the rest of the bible (Deuteronomistic History, Psalms, Prophets, etc.) all of their own unique compositional history.

“Sometimes ‘higher criticism’ really isn’t that high. What do you think?”

Sometimes we need to be careful about making assumptions regarding things that we may in reality know little about. I also think that we need to give biblical scholarship a fair shake and not simplify what are often complex cultural/historical issues, as well as make sure that the scholarship we are reading is up-to-date. For what its worth, I don’t typically hear the term “higher criticism” thrown around a lot anymore in recent biblical, historical-critical scholarship unless one is referring to the scholarship of past generations.