71: Make Love AND War!: Maintaining Positive Relationships During Faith Transitions—A Spiritual Framing

January 26, 2012
By

This is an expanded version of the talk Mormon Matters host Dan Wotherspoon gave at the Houston Region Mormon Stories Support Community conference held 20-21 January 2012. Using the biblical accounts of Jacob and the angel, and Jacob and Esau, as key texts, and organized around the central image of a “wrestling match” being simultaneously a fight but also an embrace, along with the idea of the close ties between making love and making war, the talk is geared toward providing ways of thinking about faith crises in positive ways–as integral parts of the larger human developmental journey–and then allowing those kinds of encouragements to work on our hearts and minds in a manner that will allow us to make peace with God (even if we totally end up thinking about or experiencing God or Truth and/or the spiritual path in new ways), church, friends and family who may be struggling with our pulling away from them in terms of having a shared worldview, as well as, even most importantly, ourselves. From this place of greater centeredness, achieved only as we go through the life and death match and agonizing processes of coming to fully center authority in ourselves and our own deep and genuine experiences rather than by giving that authority over to others–persons, institutions, and texts–we will be able to joyfully interact once more with loved ones. They may still not “understand” what we have (and are still) going through, but most of them will not be able to resist us in our greater, more peaceful and happier incarnation forever. And even if they continue to do so, we will be fed by a deep sense of peace and connection and groundedness in spirit that we will be able to be patient and still lovingly interact with them.

We are called to the arena. God/Spirit/Our highest self is ready and encouraging us to fight–and through that fight to love more deeply. Will we answer the bugle’s call?

Note from Dan Wotherspoon: This was produced as a narrated slide show, and the end result is far too long! I get this! I totally didn’t expect it to take this long to say all that I wanted to say. It is not a comfortable thing for me to play the role of “sage on the stage” and be in front speaking. I’m far more interested in serving as a vehicle for others to step into the forefront to share their insights; I far prefer the kinds of conversations I host in a typical Mormon Matters episode. But when all was said and done with this crazy process of recording the things I would have liked to say if I’d had the time to do it at the Houston conference, I have to admit that it did feel good to “put out there” in sort of a big chunk many of the things that animate my life and journey within Mormonism and in my own personal wrestles. I hope it doesn’t come across as too self-indulgent to present these ideas at such great length. I promise this will not become a habit! Back to panel discussions next week!

Link to Rick Jepson article, “Godwrestling: Physicality, Conflict, and Redemption in Mormon Doctrine” (Sunstone, November 2005)

71: Make Love AND War!: Maintaining Positive Relationships During Faith Transitions—A Spiritual Framing [ 1:53:26 ] Play Now | Play in Popup | Download
71a: Make Love AND War--Part I (slideshow and audio) [ 1:01:26 ] Play Now | Play in Popup | Download
71b: Make Love AND War--Part 2 (slideshow and audio) [ 54:52 ] Play Now | Play in Popup | Download

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  • Dan Wotherspoon

    In my telling of some stories, I messed up on Rebekah and Rachel a time or two; and I think I got it right a time or two. Anyway, Rebekah is Isaac’s wife and mother of Jacob; Rachel is, along with Leah, one of Jacob’s wives. Sorry for misspeaking there (and probably in other places as well!).

  • Gandhi

    I think this is the first podcast that I have listened to where I have felt my self nodding to every turn of phrase. I do not possess the eloquence or  maturity of thought so self evident in yourself and therefore lack the words necessary to express my appreciation in full to your comments. I have though found this to be of great comfort and hope as I journey in the ‘battlefield’ of religion, life and mystery. This has given me the determination to continue on when so many times I have felt like giving up. Many thanks, a grateful listener.

    • Dan Wotherspoon

      Very please this connected with you! 

      If you ever feel as if you’d like to chat, hit me up through Facebook and we’ll figure out a time/way.

      Cheers!
      Dan

      • Gandhi

        Thanks for the offer, I would appreciate a chat. I’ll be in touch.

  • Guest

    Is it only me that gets it?  Shouldn’t it be Dan Witherspoon and not Wotherspoon?  Like they call that actress Rooney Mara when she is obviously Mara Rooney.  Who names a girl Rooney?

    • Dan Wotherspoon

      Someone made a skinny “o” somewhere along the line. Now a whole bunch of folks don’t know how cool their name could have been….

  • Guest

    Can’t wait to listen to this Dan.  On the great spectrum of Mormonism, I’m at the Wotherspoon mark. 

  • Paula

    Dan,
    This podcast is such a gift. Thank you for helping me find value and meaning in this struggle. I particularly appreciated the useful tips in your closing remarks. Because I heard this podcast, I attended church today with vastly different expectations of myself, my fellow members, and the experience as a whole. I must say, it was a good day!

  • Wade

    Thank you Dan!  This was wonderful.

  • Jess

    Just wanted to say thank you for this, it came at exactly the right time for me. I’ve been struggling in my faith crisis/transition for a couple years now, and often feel that i’m just not getting anywhere with it, not making any progress or figuring anything out. Two days ago I was feeling particularly anxious about it all, and I found your podcast the next day. You have no idea how comforting and relieving it was to hear your words – it sounds cheesy, but it was like a lifeline for me. It just gives me hope that this path will somehow lead to a peaceful place. I’m going to go back and listen to it again and take notes. Thanks again, so much.

  • Dan Wotherspoon

    Thanks and my best prayers for all of you on your faith journeys. Very pleased this is helpful to you. An open invitation for anyone to reach out via Facebook messaging. I’d be very happy to chat with anyone about anything you’re encountering in your wrestles.

  • Scott Armstrong

    I really enjoyed it, Dan.  Thanks for all your work putting the talk together.

    I was impressed with the wrestling metaphor too.  Next time you’re looking for a movie to watch you might check out a little film that came out last year called WIN WIN.   It’s not especially related to anything in your talk, but it’s a really well-done drama about a high school wrestling coach…makes wrestling seem profound on some level.

    Thanks again for the podcast!

    • Dan Wotherspoon

      Thanks, Scott! Glad you enjoyed the podcast!

      When it came out, I remember thinking that movie sounded good. Glad for the recommendation/reminder. Thanks!

  • RachelM

    Dan-  Thank you so much for this.  It has given me so much to think about as I have my own “wrestle with God”.  :)    It has reminded me that while I wrestle, I may be tired, but as long as neither lets go, it is ok, because it is a wrestle of love.   Thank you so much!

    • Dan Wotherspoon

      Wonderful, Rachel. I truly believe that what you said about “as long as neither let go” is true. Hope you’ll continue to enjoy your match!

  • Ashleymerback

    Awesome Dan.  Thanks for posting this and letting us Houston Folks relive the moment!!  It was so awesome to be there for this!!

  • Debbie

    Dan, this podcast about wrestling with your faith is so
    valuable.  I hope everyone will listen to
    it if they want to understand why a person might remain active in the church in
    spite of having serious doubts about its truthfulness.  I identify closely with the thoughts you
    expressed here and I find myself becoming defensive when people who choose to
    leave the church label me a hypocrite. 
    Mormonism has problems, but its home for me.  After teaching D&C last year, I came to
    appreciate and love Joseph Smith’s vision of creating a Zion
    people, a New Jerusalem. The effort to unite group of people with eternity in
    mind is beautiful. 

    My journey is also similar to yours in that I had a (long)
    period of inactivity from about age 18 to 28. 
    I did a lot of *playing* (sinning?) during this time but I always knew
    that I would eventually return to the church when I had my own family.  I eventually married a member of the church
    and returned to full activity.  We have
    raised our children in the church but we are “destiny neutral” as to where they
    end up.  This has created a much more
    peaceful atmosphere in our home where our children, who are now young adults,
    know they are accepted for who they are. 
    We want what’s best for them whether it is inside or outside of the church.  

    It seems that the faith crisis is much harder for people who
    have been fully vested in the church (gone on a mission and/or attended BYU)
    than for people who were not as fully vested. 
    I think John Dehlin has mentioned this also.  Perhaps people who have not built a deep
    foundation in the church are able to maintain a better balance when the foundation
    crumbles beneath them? 

    One concept you didn’t mention is forgiveness, although I
    heard you insinuate this in your comments.  
    Can we forgive the church and its leaders?  The leaders who are to blame for the
    historical problems are dead and the leaders we have now have been handed a
    HUGE challenge. I don’t envy them.  It
    will take many years for the church to extricate itself from hundreds of layers
    of crazy.  The church is going to have to
    humble itself and accept its own culpability in the disaffection of so many
    people before these people will be able to step back into an LDS chapel without
    gagging.  There are some leaders who seem
    to be reaching out to the disaffected but, in the end, it might be compassionate
    members like you, Dan, who are able to help people to make peace with the
    Mormon Church.      

  • Jason

    Dan, This was great.  Thank you for sharing your experience, your intellect, your thoughts, your triumphs, your fears, your knowledge, your doubts, and most of all your love.   A fellow Mapletonite!!!  

  • JJ

    Just heard this week’s wonderful podcast.  What I’d like to know is how I find out about meetings of the “Mormon Stories Support Community.”  While I’m not of a Mormon background, I do relate to the struggles and journey you describe and always gain a lot from listening.

  • Dan Wotherspoon

    Hi JJ,

    Glad you found the podcast! Fun to have another spiritual traveler from a different tradition discover our discussions. (If you feel like writing me via FB about your background and are interested in meeting others who are not LDS but can relate to these issues within their respective traditions, I’ll do my best to connect you.) 

    You can get all the news about the various Mormon Stories Podcast community events at mormonmonstories.org, which is the blog for the MS podcast and Open Stories Foundation, which is the parent organization that our MM podcast is part of). Go there and explore.  I don’t know where you’re living, but at that site you can also discover MS groups in a bunch of cities/regions around the world.

    Good luck! Again, welcome!

    Dan Wotherspoon

  • KCK

    Dan,

    What a great podcast! I wish I could have listened to you present your keynote speech. I really enjoyed the cave analogy discussion and how you did not limit it to spirituality. All of us have different caves we are stuck in or are leaving. Perhaps some of the best advice is knowing that despite the traumatic experiences we may receive from leaving our various caves in life it is often the best outcome.

    Dan, never question your ramblings. I am never disappointed when I listen to your pod-casts, they are always full of wisdom and understanding, keep em coming… 

  • Anonymous

    I especially enjoyed your conversation between a father and son where the son had crossed the line with his mother. The dad is ready to WAR with the boy, when suddenly the dad realizes that something bigger has happened, that he needs to ask his son what is wrong. It happened in our house when my older brother Bill was just eighteen (he has missed a year in school, so had just graduated). My twin brother and I were twelve year olds. A big argument developed and Bill threw something small at mom. When our dad got home and learned about it, there was hell to pay. Dad packed Bill’s clothes, drove him to a motel, paid for a room for a few weeks and told him to “have a good life.” We lost the next ten years of Bill’s (hard) journey as he moved to Hollywood and began to live openly gay. Perhaps that was the way the game played out in those days,  but we all suffered; dad, mom, brothers, and especially Bill. When he did come around, he became the best of sons; caretaker, provider, always there for the folks when they needed him. He was not however, able to fully share his long-time companion (they would know 25 years together), before Bill died suddenly of an enlarged heart at 51. My elderly folks missed him terribly then. And I know they missed sharing him with the man who loved him. Bill’s been gone 22 years now, but Jim still visits his grave a couple times a month (we talk several times a year).  Jim was at my parents funerals, representing Bill. Strange thing about love… it is eternal and grows… if you will allow it. How I hated the church’s support of Prop 8, they just don’t get it.

  • Anonymous

    Good stuff, Dan. I’ll listen to it again. When is the book coming out? (Not kidding…I would love to see these ideas fully developed in a book.)