<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:wfw="http://wellformedweb.org/CommentAPI/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
	xmlns:slash="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/slash/"
	>

<channel>
	<title>Mormon Matters &#187; Anti-Mormon</title>
	<atom:link href="http://mormonmatters.org/category/anti-mormon/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://mormonmatters.org</link>
	<description>Exploring Mormon culture in a balanced way</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 17 Mar 2010 16:08:38 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2</generator>
	<language>en</language>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
			<item>
		<title>Dueling Wordprint Studies</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2010/03/06/dueling-wordprint-studies/</link>
		<comments>http://mormonmatters.org/2010/03/06/dueling-wordprint-studies/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Mar 2010 16:10:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Mormon Heretic</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Anti-Mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[apologetics]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[book of mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[historicity]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=10038</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This is the 3rd post reviewing By the Hand of Mormon, by Terryl Givens.  I&#8217;ve taken a bit on an interest in wordprint studies.  Givens explains wordprint studies on page 156.
Computational stylistics is based on the premise that all authors exhibit subtle, quantifiable stylistic traits that are equivalent to a litereray fingerprint, or wordprint.  The [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is the 3rd post reviewing <a href="http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/890236.By_the_Hand_of_Mormon_The_American_Scripture_that_Launched_a_New_World_Religion">By the Hand of Mormon</a>, by Terryl Givens.  I&#8217;ve taken a bit on an interest in wordprint studies.  Givens explains wordprint studies on page 156.</p>
<blockquote><p>Computational stylistics is based on the premise that all authors exhibit subtle, quantifiable stylistic traits that are equivalent to a litereray fingerprint, or wordprint.  The method has been used to investigate other instances of disputed authorship, from Plato to Shakespeare to the Federalist papers.  <img title="More..." src="http://www.mormonheretic.org/wp-includes/js/tinymce/plugins/wordpress/img/trans.gif" alt="" /><span id="more-10038"></span>Analyzing blocks of words from 24 of the Book of Mormon&#8217;s ostensible authors, along with nine nineteenth-century writers including Joseph Smith, three statisticians used three statistical techniques (multivariate analysis of variance, cluster analysis, and discriminant analysis) to establish the probability that the various parts of the Book of Mormon were composed by the range of authors suggested by the narrative itself.  They found that all of the sample word blocks exhibit their own &#8220;discernable authorship styles (wordprints),&#8221; even though these blocks are not clearly demarcated in the text, but are &#8220;shuffled and intermixed&#8221; throughout the Book of Mormon&#8217;s editorially complex narrative structure (wherein alleged authorship shifts some 2.000 times).  Emphasizing the demonstrated resistance of these methods to even deliberate stylistic imitation, they further conclude that &#8220;it does not seem possible that Joseph Smith or any other writer could have fabricated a work with 24 or more discernible authorship styles.&#8221;  The evidence, they write, is &#8220;overwhelming&#8221; that the Book of Mormon was not written by Joseph Smith or any of his contemporaries or alleged collaborators they tested for (including Sidney Rigdon and Solomon Spaulding).<sup>4</sup> Asubsequent, even more sophisticated analysis by a Berkeley group concluded that it is &#8220;statistically indefensible to propose Joseph Smith or Oliver Cowdery or Solomon Spaulding as the author of 30,000 words&#8230;attributed to Nephi and Alma&#8230;The Book of Mormon measures multiauthored, with authorship consistent with its own internal claims.  These results are obtained even though the writings of Nephi and Alma were &#8216;translated&#8217; by Joseph Smith.&#8221;<sup>5</sup></p></blockquote>
<p>Ok, let me talk about multivariate analysis of variance, cluster analysis, and discriminant analysis.  These are very advanced graduate level statistical techniques.  <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_A._Fisher">Ronald Fisher</a> is a famous English statistician (ok, only famous to statisticians) who pioneered many of these techniques.  Danish Professor Anders Hald said Fisher  &#8220;almost single-handedly created the foundations for modern statistical science.&#8221;  Fisher died in 1962.  These techniques are really new, are frankly aren&#8217;t discussed in any bachelor&#8217;s level statistics courses.</p>
<p>Givens book was published in 2002.  From reading this paragraph, one would think wordprint studies are solidly in favor of Mormons.  However, in Dec 2008, Oxford Journals published a new study called &#8220;<em>Reassessing authorship of the Book of Mormon using delta and nearest shrunken centroid classification</em>.&#8221; I have a master&#8217;s degree in statistics, and until I saw this article, I had never heard of a shrunken centroid classification.  I must say I have always been impressed with Wikipedia when it comes to math articles, but Wikipedia doesn&#8217;t even have an article on this shrunken centroid classification.  I found this <a href="http://www-stat.stanford.edu/~tibs/PAM/Rdist/howwork.html">Stanford University article that describes the technique</a>.  Apparently it is used in cancer gene analysis.  The authors of this Book of Mormon authorship article are three Stanford University professors:  Matthew L. Jockers (English), Daniela M. Witten  (Statistics), Craig S. Criddle (Civil and Environmental Engineering).  They claim that “Our findings<sup> </sup>support the hypothesis that Rigdon was the main architect of<sup> </sup>the <em>Book of Mormon</em> and are consistent with historical evidence<sup> </sup>suggesting that he fabricated the book by adding theology to<sup> </sup>the unpublished writings of Spalding (then deceased).”</p>
<p>(<a href="http://llc.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/short/23/4/465" target="_blank">The abstract is found here</a>, but you have to pay $28 to actually view the article.)  FAIR has criticized the methodology of the study, because they didn’t include Joseph Smith as a possible author.  Why isn’t he as likely as Spalding to have written it?  It appears the Stanford professors decided that the true author of the Book of Mormon was one of only seven possible authors:  Oliver Cowdery, Parley P Pratt, Sidney Rigdon, Solomon Spalding, Isaiah/Malachi, Joel Barlow, and Henry Longfellow.  Barlow and Longfellow are poets thrown in as control, so it shouldn&#8217;t be a surprise that they didn’t match.  Since the Book of Mormon includes writings of Isaiah and Malachi, these portions should easily match, and the Jockers study concludes these portions match.</p>
<p>I guess my biggest problem with Jockers is this.  The corrected abstract refers to a correction on one chapter, &#8220;With the corrected<sup> </sup>data, NSC ranked Rigdon at 0.4626 and Spalding at 0.46525.&#8221;  If I am understanding this correctly, these numbers are probabilities.  So the probability that Sidney Rigdon is the real author if this chapter of the Book of Mormon is less 50%&#8211;not exactly a ringing endorsement, I&#8217;d say.  I&#8217;d like to see probabilities of the other chapters, especially the Isaiah and Malachi chapters, which I expect will have a pretty strong correlation.</p>
<p>Now, to be fair, I don&#8217;t have probabilities that Givens is referencing&#8211;perhaps they are suspect as well.  But I expect that Isaiah and Malachi have much higher probabilities than 0.4626 for Jockers study.  So, what do you think of wordprint studies?</p>
<a class="a2a_dd addtoany_share_save" href="http://www.addtoany.com/share_save?linkurl=http%3A%2F%2Fmormonmatters.org%2F2010%2F03%2F06%2Fdueling-wordprint-studies%2F&amp;linkname=Dueling%20Wordprint%20Studies"><img src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/plugins/add-to-any/share_save_171_16.png" width="171" height="16" alt="Share/Bookmark"/></a>]]></content:encoded>
			<wfw:commentRss>http://mormonmatters.org/2010/03/06/dueling-wordprint-studies/feed/</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>76</slash:comments>
		</item>
		<item>
		<title>Are Mormon Academics Winning the Debate with Evangelicals?</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2010/02/27/are-mormon-academics-winning-the-debate-with-evangelicals/</link>
		<comments>http://mormonmatters.org/2010/02/27/are-mormon-academics-winning-the-debate-with-evangelicals/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Feb 2010 19:08:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Mormon Heretic</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Anti-Mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[apologetics]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[book of mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[evangelicals]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[historicity]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[scripture]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[theology]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=9970</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#8217;ve been reading Terryl Givens book, By the Hand of Mormon.  While acknowledging archaeological data isn&#8217;t as strong as other aspects of the Book of Mormon, Givens seems to feel Mormon academics have made some impressive contributions.  I posted a longer version of this on my blog.  Givens starts with Hugh Nibley on page 118:
No [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve been reading Terryl Givens book, <a href="http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/890236.By_the_Hand_of_Mormon_The_American_Scripture_that_Launched_a_New_World_Religion">By the Hand of Mormon</a>.  While acknowledging <a href="http://www.mormonheretic.org/2010/01/31/foundations-of-book-of-mormon-archaeology/">archaeological data</a> isn&#8217;t as strong as other aspects of the Book of Mormon, Givens seems to feel Mormon academics have made some impressive contributions.  I posted a <a href="http://www.mormonheretic.org/2010/02/22/are-mormon-academics-winning-the-debate-with-evangelicals/">longer version</a> of this on my blog.  Givens starts with Hugh Nibley on page 118:</p>
<blockquote><p><img title="More..." src="http://www.mormonheretic.org/wp-includes/js/tinymce/plugins/wordpress/img/trans.gif" alt="" />No one in the history of Mormon scholarship has done more to establish rational grounds for belief in the Book of Mormon than Hugh Nibley.  Acquiring impressive scholarly credentials (summa cum laude from UCLA and a Berkeley Ph.D. dissertation written in three weeks in 1938) before heading off to war&#8230;.</p></blockquote>
<p><span id="more-9970"></span>From page 124,</p>
<blockquote><p>Nibley&#8217;s legendary erudition, fluency across a spectrum of languages, and prodigious output (appearing in a wide range of scholarly publications from the <em>Classical Journal</em> and <em>Encyclopedia Judaica</em> to <em>Church History</em> and <em>Revue de Qumran) </em>have lent his work a weight that is unprecedented in Mormon studies.</p>
<p>Praised by the likes of non-LDS scholars Raphael Patai, Jacob Neusner, James Charlesworth, Cyrus Gordon, Jacob Milgrom, and former Harvard Divinity School dean George McRae (&#8220;it is obscene for a man to know that much,&#8221; he grumbled, hearing him lecture), Nibley has done more than any Mormon of his era to further the intellectual credibility of the Book of Mormon.<sup>23</sup> Inspired by his work, a more recent generation of LDS researchers brings a range of impressive scholarly credentials to serious Book of Mormon scholarship.<sup>24</sup></p></blockquote>
<p>Many critics of the Book of Mormon take issue with this idea of &#8220;Reformed Egyptian.&#8221;  Givens quotes Moroni on page 132,</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;we have written this record according to our knowledge, in the characters which are called among us the reformed Egyptian, being handed down and altered by us, according to our manner of speech&#8221; (Morm. 9:32)</p>
<p>Mormon scholars take this to suggest the possibility that the writers used modified Egyptian symbols to represent Hebrew words (&#8220;Hebrew words, idioms, and syntax written in Egyptian cursive script&#8221;<sup>53</sup>), certainly a bizarre idea for a nineteenth-century audience.  Now as John Tvedtnes points out, &#8220;the use of Egyptian symbols to transliterate Hebrew words and vice versa, is known from the sixth century B.C. text discovered at Arad and Kadesh-Barnea,&#8221;<sup>54</sup> Papyrus Amherst 63, for example, &#8220;contains a scriptural text in Northwest Semitic tongue written in an Egyptian script.&#8221;<sup>55</sup></p></blockquote>
<p>Givens shows other parallels in the chapter, including:</p>
<ul>
<li> Lehi&#8217;s travel through the desert,</li>
<li>his poetic structure,</li>
<li>the golden plates parallel with the Copper Scroll found with the Dead Sea Scrolls (and other writings on ancient metal plates),</li>
<li>similarities between Moroni&#8217;s Title of Liberty and the Quran,</li>
<li>King Benjamin&#8217;s coronation was similar to Bablyonian rituals, and</li>
<li>important plates buried in stone boxes by Darius, king of Persia.</li>
</ul>
<p>Givens goes on to talk about John Welch.  As a missionary in Germany in 1967, Welch attended a lecture on chiasmus, a Hebrew literary device.  Welch soon discovered chiasmus in Mosiah 5:10-12, a form of inverted parallel poetry.  Welch went on to work with FARMS, the Foundation of Ancient Research and Mormon Studies (formed in 1979.)  The group looks at Old World parallels in the Book of Mormon.  Givens addresses John Sorenson, the most recognized archaeologist advocating a Central American setting for the Book of Mormon.  (I plan a future post exclusively to Sorenson and his theory.)</p>
<p>Givens says that Mormon Scholarship is causing alarm among Evangelical critics.  From page 143,</p>
<blockquote><p>Under the burden of Mormon scholarship that is increasingly well credentialed, and in the face of Mormon growth that is alarming to evangelicals,<sup>110</sup> the polemics of nineteenth-century preachers are no longer an adequate response.  Until recently, for example, criticisms of barley or pre-Columbian horses in the Book of Mormon would come from writers of anti-Mormon books&#8211;not from botanists or archaeologists.  The latter have not, for the most part, taken the Book of Mormon seriously enough as a text to analyze its historical credibility.  A recent paper by two evangelical scholars suggests that a realignment of the Book of Mormon wars may be coming.</p>
<p>The 1997 address of Carl Mosser and Paul Owen at a regional meeting of the Evangelical Theological Society was remarkable for a number of reasons.  First, it accorded high praise to the state of Mormon scholarship.  They summarized a number of recent publications to illustrate their assertion that &#8220;in recent years the sophistication and erudition of LDS apologetics has risen considerably&#8230;[and] is clearly seen in their approach to the Book of Mormon.&#8221;  As difficult as it may be to accept the fact, &#8220;LDS academicians are producing serious research which desperately needs to be critically examined,&#8221; they insisted.<sup>111</sup></p>
<p>In addition, Mosser and Owen are adamant that evangelical responses to Mormon scholarship have been, almost universally, &#8220;uninformed, misleading, or otherwise inadequate&#8230;.At the academic level evangelicals are losing the debate.&#8221;<sup>112</sup> Actually, it hardly resembles a debate, because Mormon scholars, they acknowledge, &#8220;have&#8230;answered most of the usual evangelical criticisms.&#8221;  And, as of 1997, there were &#8220;no books from an evangelical perspective that responsibly interact with contemporary LDS scholarly and apologetic writings.&#8221;<sup>113</sup></p>
<p>&#8230;[page 144]  The major force in anti-Mormon polemics has long been Jerald and Sandra Tanner&#8230;It is no wonder that non-Mormon historian Lawrence Foster has faulted these critics, the most prolific of all anti-Mormon writers, for &#8220;twisting&#8221; scholarship, resorting to &#8220;debaters&#8217; ploys,&#8221; and, in general, demonstrating &#8220;lack of balance and perspective.&#8221;<sup>117</sup></p></blockquote>
<p>So, what do you think of the state of Mormon Scholarship?</p>
<a class="a2a_dd addtoany_share_save" href="http://www.addtoany.com/share_save?linkurl=http%3A%2F%2Fmormonmatters.org%2F2010%2F02%2F27%2Fare-mormon-academics-winning-the-debate-with-evangelicals%2F&amp;linkname=Are%20Mormon%20Academics%20Winning%20the%20Debate%20with%20Evangelicals%3F"><img src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/plugins/add-to-any/share_save_171_16.png" width="171" height="16" alt="Share/Bookmark"/></a>]]></content:encoded>
			<wfw:commentRss>http://mormonmatters.org/2010/02/27/are-mormon-academics-winning-the-debate-with-evangelicals/feed/</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>59</slash:comments>
		</item>
		<item>
		<title>Ask Mormon Girl:  What to do with BYU player haters talking anti-Mormon smack?</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2010/02/01/ask-mormon-girl-what-to-do-with-byu-player-haters-talking-anti-mormon-smack/</link>
		<comments>http://mormonmatters.org/2010/02/01/ask-mormon-girl-what-to-do-with-byu-player-haters-talking-anti-mormon-smack/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Feb 2010 18:30:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Joanna Brooks</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Anti-Mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[BYU]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[sports]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=9646</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[
This week, dear Mormon Matters readers, Ask Mormon Girl takes a foray into the wild world of sports.
Perhaps you’ve heard about the unruly behavior San Diego State University Aztec basketball fans directed at Brigham Young University on Saturday, January 23, when a few dozen SDSU fans dressed up as LDS missionaries (complete with name tags and [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div>
<p>This week, dear Mormon Matters readers, <em>Ask Mormon Girl</em> takes a foray into the wild world of sports.</p>
<p>Perhaps you’ve heard about the unruly behavior San Diego State University Aztec basketball fans directed at Brigham Young University on Saturday, January 23, when a few dozen SDSU fans dressed up as LDS missionaries (complete with name tags and bike helmets), held signs taunting illness-stricken BYU guard Jimmer Fredette (“Jimmer, which one of your wives gave you mono?”), and compensated for their 71-69 loss by chanting “You’re still Mormon!” at departing BYU players and fans.</p>
<p>The episode caught national attention when <em>Sports Illustrated</em>’s Seth Davis called the Aztec fan behavior “<a href="http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/seth_davis/01/25/hoop.thoughts/1.html">classless</a>.”  Two days later, the <a href="http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700005516/BYU-basketball-Anti-LDS-behavior-addressed-at-San-Diego-State.html">Deseret News</a> picked up the story, and the following letter appeared in the <a href="mailto:askmormongirl@gmail.com">askmormongirl@gmail.com</a> inbox:</p>
<p><em>Dear Mormon Girl:</em></p>
<p><em> </em></p>
<p><em>Don’t you live in San Diego?  Don’t you work at San Diego State University?  Can’t you control your people???!!!</em></p>
<p><em> </em></p>
<p><em>Signed,</em></p>
<p><em> </em></p>
<p><em>J. D.</em><br />
<span id="more-9646"></span><br />
Yes, J.D., it is true that both my husband and I are full-time employees of San Diego State University, where we have grown to love the beautiful campus and its diverse, bright, hardworking students (many of them first-generation college).  I adore the Aztecs who populate my lecture halls, especially when they manage to restrain themselves from thumb-typing illiterate little screeds into their magic phones and focus on the assigned reading.</p>
<p>But in the world of the sports arena crueler speech customs reign.  And my visiting teacher, a multi-generation local, tells me that SDSU animus towards BYU is deep and longstanding.  It gets unruly down here at the southwestern fringes of the Book-of-Mormon-belt, where we Mormons are numerous enough to constitute a definite element of the cultural landscape but still few enough to be a small minority.  And I bet many folks are feeling a little tender about homemade signs with polygamy jibes and anti-LDS chanting given that only a year has elapsed since the difficult days following the passage of California’s Proposition 8.</p>
<p>Among the Cougar faithful, reaction to the SDSU incident has broken two ways:  some giggle at the missionary dress-ups and dismiss the harsher jibes as regular trashtalking, while others call it “hate speech” and say it would have never been tolerated if the targets were, for example, gays or lesbians or Jews.</p>
<p><em>Not so fast</em>, I say:  the question of what exactly constitutes “hate speech” deserves sober reflection, and anyone who thinks that gays and lesbians and Jews have it easy should sit down and study the latest California <a href="http://mormonsformarriage.com/?p=148">hate crime statistics</a>. Personally, I’d feel more comfortable using the term “hate speech” if someone could identify for me a way in which Mormons are today systematically and structurally discriminated against as Mormons on the basis of our Mormon identity alone, besides encountering bias when one of us runs for president.  Does the simple fact of being born Mormon make it statistically more likely that we’ll be turned down for an apartment or a mortgage, or incarcerated, or targeted for public beating, or die an early death?  No, no, no, and no.</p>
<p>And yet, even as I was preparing to finish this column, my husband (who is Jewish) came home this afternoon and related the conversation he had with our neighbor (also Jewish), an SDSU basketball fan.  “I can’t stand that Jimmer Fredette,” the neighbor complained. “Man, I hate the Mormons.”</p>
<p>Did neighbor Aztec fan mean he actually hated the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?  Did he mean he hated <em>me</em>?  Or me and my husband’s children?  Or was there in his speech a quiet transformation of Mormons into mascots, a metonymic substitution with ugly side effects?  Do people say “I hate the Catholics” when they root against Notre Dame?  I don’t think so.  I don’t know.  I’m not sure I have a good handle on the strange, complex, and shifting place we Mormons occupy in American society, and I study religion and race for a living.</p>
<p>So, J. D., you asked mostly in jest, “Can’t you control those people?” And my unexpectedly serious answer is <em>nope, no one can</em>.  All we can control is the way we react to them.</p>
<p>As clever and giggle-worthy as the missionary dress-up routine was, no one likes to hear the name of their religion hurled as a taunt, especially Cougar fans who look forward to BYU games as a chance to bleacher-bond with the grandkids and other Mormons.</p>
<p>But it helps to remember that the word <em>Mormon</em> was used in the 1830s as a pejorative and has since become a word that we’re proud to own.</p>
<p>And in this we do have a clear common experience with other American minorities, including Black folks, Jews, women, and gays and lesbians, who know that the quickest way to neutralize a word designed to wound is to take it back and use it yourself–with pride, with style, and with flair.</p>
<p>So if this Mormon Girl were in the bleachers that night (I was just across the freeway at my daughter’s preschool benefit) and she heard the “You’re still Mormon!” jeers ringing across the arena, her very first instinct would have been to tuck her Young Womanhood medallion inside her blouse, shout out something in the key of J. Golden Kimball, and huck her leftover nachos at the offending Aztec fans.</p>
<p>Then, mustering a modicum of self-restraint, she might have quietly devised a clever counter-taunt, something along the lines of:  <em>“That’s alright! That’s okay!  We’ll baptize your dead someday!”</em></p>
<p>Finally, reaching deeper, she would have resolved that the best response to the accusation “You’re still Mormon!” is a resounding “Yes, I am!”</p>
<p>Readers, what would you say?</p>
<p><em>Send your queries to askmormongirl@gmail.com, or follow askmormongirl on Twitter.</em></p>
</div>
<a class="a2a_dd addtoany_share_save" href="http://www.addtoany.com/share_save?linkurl=http%3A%2F%2Fmormonmatters.org%2F2010%2F02%2F01%2Fask-mormon-girl-what-to-do-with-byu-player-haters-talking-anti-mormon-smack%2F&amp;linkname=Ask%20Mormon%20Girl%3A%20%20What%20to%20do%20with%20BYU%20player%20haters%20talking%20anti-Mormon%20smack%3F"><img src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/plugins/add-to-any/share_save_171_16.png" width="171" height="16" alt="Share/Bookmark"/></a>]]></content:encoded>
			<wfw:commentRss>http://mormonmatters.org/2010/02/01/ask-mormon-girl-what-to-do-with-byu-player-haters-talking-anti-mormon-smack/feed/</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>46</slash:comments>
		</item>
		<item>
		<title>Committing Spiritual Murder: Analysing Alma 39</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2010/01/26/on-committing-spiritual-murder/</link>
		<comments>http://mormonmatters.org/2010/01/26/on-committing-spiritual-murder/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jan 2010 06:45:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Rico</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Anti-Mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[apologetics]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[apostasy]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[faith]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[spirituality]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[testimony]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[book of mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[doctrine]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[LDS]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=8942</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Michael Ash in a Sunstone article entitled ‘The Sin “Next to Murder”’ has argued that Alma’s exhortation to his son Corianton (who had ran off with an woman of ill-repute), that ‘these things are an abomination in the sight of the Lord; yea most abominable above all sins save it be the shedding of innocent [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael Ash in a Sunstone article entitled ‘The Sin “Next to Murder”’ has argued that Alma’s exhortation to his son Corianton (who had ran off with an woman of ill-repute), that ‘these things are an abomination in the sight of the Lord; yea most abominable above all sins save it be the shedding of innocent blood or denying the Holy Ghost’ (see Al 39:5), is not speaking about breaking the law of Chastity.  Ash argues that Corianton’s sin is ‘causing the spiritual death of others’[1].  Aside from this being an interesting article, it raises the question of what is spiritual murder?<span id="more-8942"></span></p>
<p>Ash argues that we commit spiritual murder when we destroy the testimony of another person.  He argues that our sins can do this and thus he believes Alma’s counsel to his son is to help him see the damage that he has caused, ‘for when [the Zoramites] saw your conduct they would not believe in my [Alma’s] words’ (see Al 39:11).</p>
<p>Ash argues that there two things people need to wary of, if they are to avoid committing this sin.  First, our actions, like Corianton, can destroy the testimony of another.  Second, is sharing information with people that might damage their faith, like ‘the stickier parts of early LDS Church history or scriptural difficulties’ [1].  Now Ash also notes that the intent’s of our hearts are what is important when it comes to deciding who is guilty.  So Richard Bushman is not guilty of spiritual murder, but presumably Fawn Brodie might be and the Tanners are certainly in trouble.</p>
<p>Yet, although I accept his interpretation of this passage of scripture I am not sure I can fully accept how he then goes on to define spiritual murder.  For example, when are our motives ever directed by one factor?  We are often influenced by a multiplicity of ideas whenever we do something.  So I am not convinced that we ever wholly desire to do right or wrong.</p>
<p>Further, if the information shared is the same and true regardless of with what intention it is shared, why does this issue of sincerity become a factor at all.  <a href="https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/shop/products/?product_id=1041&amp;category=3">Maffly-Kipp</a>, in another Sunstone article, has argued that issues around sincerity are part of a Protestant theological tradition that seeks to categorise people into the righteous and the unrighteous.  This assumes that only the good or sincere can do Gods work, but the scriptures have examples of people who may not have been ‘righteous’ or ‘sincere’ but who nevertheless were used by God.</p>
<p>Is it possible that Fawn Brodie was directed by God to do what she did?</p>
<p>This question of spiritual murder also raises important questions about how this issue is dealt with within the Church, in relation to Church discipline.  I recall <a href="http://mormonstories.org/?p=333">Paul Toscano</a>, when speaking to John Dehlin, asking at his Disciplinary Council that someone ‘show [him] the body count?’  He argues that he was excommunicated on the possibility that what he had written might damage people’s faith.  Now although I would argue that it is difficult to prove that one person has destroyed the faith of another; it seems that the Church would never excommunicate someone because they <em>could have</em> killed someone in doing something dangerous.  Then why are comfortable in excommunicating someone that <em>might</em> damage someone’s faith.</p>
<p>It seems to me we need to careful about how we use this concept, if it is to become something that is used in the Church (again).</p>
<p>Questions:</p>
<p>How would you define spiritual murder?</p>
<p>Should it be necessary to prove spiritual murder before someone is excommunicated?</p>
<p>Notes:</p>
<p>1. Michael R. Ash, <em>The Sin “Next to Murder”</em> in Sunstone, 2006, p. 34, 40.</p>
<a class="a2a_dd addtoany_share_save" href="http://www.addtoany.com/share_save?linkurl=http%3A%2F%2Fmormonmatters.org%2F2010%2F01%2F26%2Fon-committing-spiritual-murder%2F&amp;linkname=Committing%20Spiritual%20Murder%3A%20Analysing%20Alma%2039"><img src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/plugins/add-to-any/share_save_171_16.png" width="171" height="16" alt="Share/Bookmark"/></a>]]></content:encoded>
			<wfw:commentRss>http://mormonmatters.org/2010/01/26/on-committing-spiritual-murder/feed/</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>44</slash:comments>
		</item>
		<item>
		<title>Like a Virgin</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/12/10/like-a-virgin/</link>
		<comments>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/12/10/like-a-virgin/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Dec 2009 10:15:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Bored in Vernal</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Anti-Mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Jesus]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Mormons]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[apologetics]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[christ]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[doctrine]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[evangelicals]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[theology]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[virgin birth]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=8544</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This post is a response to Aaron Shafovaloff over at Mormon Coffee. If you go to enjoy the lights on Temple Square, you are likely to see him striking up gospel conversations.
From viewing Aaron&#8217;s video of himself witnessing at Temple Square I&#8217;m getting the feeling that he wants us to believe that if something is [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/c51.jpg"><img class="alignleft size-thumbnail wp-image-7683" title="Avatar-BiV" src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/c51-150x150.jpg" alt="Avatar-BiV" width="80" height="80" /></a><em>This post is a response to Aaron Shafovaloff over at <a href="http://blog.mrm.org/">Mormon Coffee</a>. If you go to enjoy the lights on Temple Square, you are likely to see him striking up gospel conversations.</em></p>
<p>From viewing Aaron&#8217;s <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnHQpusrXmY">video</a> of himself witnessing at Temple Square I&#8217;m getting the feeling that he wants us to believe that if something is miraculous, it has to be completely incomprehensible.  But he doesn&#8217;t realize that concept doesn&#8217;t appeal to us. Mormons are likely to say that God does not defy law, but he works through physical laws, a fundamental principle of the universe.  This in no way impedes our awe or sense of the wonder of Christmastime or the birth of the Savior.</p>
<p>A primary purpose of Joseph Smith&#8217;s vision in the grove was to reveal an embodied God.  This conception of Deity has been vital to our doctrine from the early days of the Church to this day. Thomas S. Monson taught:</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;This loving God who introduced his crucified and resurrected Son was not a God lacking in body, parts, or passions ­­ the God of a man-­made philosophy. Rather, God our Father has ears with which to hear our prayers. He has eyes with which to see our actions. He has a mouth with which to speak to us. He has a heart with which to feel compassion and love. He is real. He is living. We are his children made in his image. We look like him and he looks like us.&#8221; (Conference Report, April 1966, p.63)</p></blockquote>
<p>But  if we believe in an embodied God, we have to think about what this might imply, including  the mechanics of how Mary was impregnated.  Aaron and other Christian evangelicals are bothered that LDS leaders have taught that the seed of our Father in Heaven produced Jesus Christ in a literal, physical fashion.  <span id="more-8544"></span>The Bible teaches that Jesus was conceived by the <a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/search?search=matt+1%3A20&amp;do=Search">Holy Ghost</a>, but the Book of Mormon clarifies that this was done <em><span style="font-weight:bold;">by the <a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/search?search=alma+7%3A10&#038;do=Search">power</a> of the Holy Ghost</span></em>, after the manner of the <a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/search?type=references&amp;last=alma+7%3A10&amp;help=&amp;ro=checked&amp;search=1+nephi+11%3A18%0D%0A&amp;do=Search&amp;show=%0D%0A%0D%0A">flesh</a>.</p>
<p>There is no doubt that the idea of physical relations between God and Mary has been clearly advocated in the Church by such authorities as Brigham Young [1], Orson Pratt [2], Heber C. Kimball [3], Joseph F. Smith, [4],  Joseph Fielding Smith [5], James E. Talmage [6], Melvin J. Ballard [7], J. Reuben Clark [8], Bruce R. McConkie [9], and Ezra Taft Benson [10].  Mormons believe that Christ was literally the Son of God in the flesh, and he was conceived in a natural, physical way according to eternal law. In explaining this, the aforementioned leaders gave their views on how it was accomplished.  Despite this, many members do not agree, are unaware of the idea, or prefer not to discuss it. It is certainly understandable that some feel it is a sacred subject. Some feel that it is merely speculation which does not affect the LDS doctrinal position on the nature of Christ.  Others find it distasteful because it conjures up issues of celestial polygamy or spiritual incest. There are those who would like to skirt the issue by postulating that Mary may have been impregnated by some means such as <a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=tJDmO4CMXCcC&amp;pg=PA102&amp;lpg=PA102&amp;dq=mormon+virgin+birth&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=-3hzwWNAJD&amp;sig=iockcu4mD7AMAsItAZN5jUsVGiw&amp;hl=en&amp;ei=Rz8cS4HXGI6XtgfYtsXUAw&amp;sa=X&amp;oi=book_result&amp;ct=result&amp;resnum=3&amp;ved=0CBAQ6AEwAjgU#v=onepage&amp;q=mormon%20virgin%20birth&amp;f=false">artificial insemination</a>. But I see no reason, if God has a body and parts, that he would not use his parts.</p>
<p>Several contemporary Mormon writers are willing to accept the conception of Christ through a physical relationship.  <a href="http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/03/the-sexual-generation-of-jesus/">Kevin Barney</a> finds the idea appealing:</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;I presume the mortal Jesus had 46 chromosomes, and that 23 came from Mary, but where did the other 23 come from? As a Mormon, I’m not big on the idea that they were created ex nihilo for this specific purpose. I like being able to say that Jesus really did have a father, not in a metaphorical sense only (the language of begetting in the creeds doesn’t mean literal begetting), but in a physical sense. He really was the Son of God.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>For those of us who are willing to entertain the notion of a physical conception, how do we explain the &#8220;Virgin Birth&#8221; spoken of in the scriptures? There are several possibilities.</p>
<p><span style="font-weight:bold;"> <big>1. The word in the Bible translated as &#8220;virgin&#8221; actually means &#8220;young woman.&#8221;</big></span><big></big></p>
<p>An introduction to this controversy can be found <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almah">here</a>.   Having studied the linguistics carefully, I believe there is merit to the argument that the Hebrew word &#8220;almah&#8221; in Isaiah 7:14 (<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuvaUM1h5m4">Behold, a virgin shall conceive</a>) was used for &#8220;young woman&#8221; and not specifically &#8220;virgin.&#8221;  The word used in the New Testament passages to describe Mary as a virgin, &#8220;parthenos,&#8221; can also mean young woman (<a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/search?search=gen+34%3A2-4&amp;do=Search">damsel</a>), as in the <a href="http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Gen&#038;c=34&#038;t=lxx&#038;x=6&#038;y=7">Septuagint</a> (Greek translation of the Old Testament), when it refers to Dinah after she was raped.  This explanation fits with the teachings of Church leaders that God the Father was the literal father of Jesus according to the flesh.</p>
<p>This argument is weakened by the fact that Mary is referred to as a virgin five times in <a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_ne/11/13,15,18,20#13">1 Nephi</a> and once in <a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/alma/7/10#10">Alma</a>.  Since we do not have the original language version of the Book of Mormon to refer to, we must take the English as it stands.</p>
<p>Additionally, General Authorities have insisted that our beliefs are consistent with Mary being a virgin.  Therefore, some have conjectured:<br />
<span style="font-weight:bold;"><big><br />
2. Mary was a virgin because she did not have relations with a man, but with a God. </big></span><big></big></p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;One of the great questions that I have referred to that the world is concerned about, and is in confusion over, is as to whether or not his was a virgin birth, a birth wherein divine power interceded.&#8221; (Melvin J. Ballard)</p>
<p>Our Lord is the only mortal person ever born to a virgin because he is the only person who ever had an immortal Father. (Bruce R. McConkie, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, pp. 18­20.) &#8220;For our present purposes, suffice it to say that our Lord was born of a virgin, which is fitting and proper, and also natural, since the Father of the Child was an immortal Being&#8221; (BRM, The Promised Messiah, pg. 466).</p></blockquote>
<p>Although God has a physical body, the reasoning goes, it was glorified and perfected.  Since the Being who impregnated Mary had a Divine nature, she was not changed in the way she would have been had she had intercourse with an earthly, fallen man with a human nature.</p>
<p><span style="font-size: x-large;">NOW, We&#8217;ve discussed the fun, speculative stuff, let&#8217;s get to the IMPORTANT, ESSENTIAL stuff:</span></p>
<ul>
<li>Who does the Bible say is the father of the incarnate Jesus (God), and how was it accomplished? (by the power of the Holy Ghost) (<a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/search?search=luke+1%3A35&amp;do=Search">Luke 1:35</a>) Do Mormon teachings fit with this statement?</li>
<li>(<strong><em>This is the big one in my opinion</em></strong>): If we concede the Evangelical teachings on <a href="http://www.godssimpleplan.org/gsps-english.html">how one obtains salvation</a>, how does knowing whether or not God actually had sex with Mary pertain?</li>
</ul>
<p>***<br />
So, Aaron, what&#8217;s holding Evangelical Christians back from singing Christmas carols with us on Temple Square? Why is our commemoration of Jesus&#8217; birth less valuable than yours if we believe that sexual intercourse is divine?<img src="file:///C:/Users/Owner/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot-1.png" alt="" /> <img src="file:///C:/Users/Owner/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot.png" alt="" /><img src="file:///C:/Users/Owner/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot-2.png" alt="" />What better way could there be to create a being who is fully human and fully God?</p>
<p>________________________________________</p>
<p>[1]&#8220;The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood—was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers,&#8221; (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 8, p. 115).</p>
<p>[2] &#8220;There is no doubt that the Holy Ghost came upon Mary to sanctify her, and make her holy, and prepare her to endure the glorious presence of &#8220;the Highest&#8217;, that when &#8216;He&#8217; should &#8216;overshadow&#8217; her she might conceive, being filled with the Holy Ghost; hence the angel said, as recorded in Matthew, &#8216;That which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost;&#8217; that is, the Holy Ghost gave her strength to abide in the presence of the Father without being consumed, but it was the personage of the Father who begat the body of Jesus; and for this reason Jesus is called &#8216;the Only Begotten of the Father;&#8217; that is, the only one in this world whose fleshly body was begotten by the Father&#8230;The fleshly body of Jesus required a Mother as well as a Father. Therefore, the Father and Mother of Jesus, according to the flesh, must have been associated together in the capacity of Husband and Wife; hence the Virgin Mary must have been, for the time being, the lawful wife of God the Father..&#8221; (Orson Pratt, The Seer, page 158)</p>
<p>[3] &#8220;I will say that I was naturally begotten; so was my father, and also my Savior Jesus Christ. According to the Scriptures, he is the first begotten of his father in the flesh, and there was nothing unnatural about it. (Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, 8:211)</p>
<p>[4] &#8220;I want the little folks [children] to hear what I am going to tell you. I am going to tell you a simple truth, yet it is one of the greatest truths and one of the most simple facts ever revealed to the children of men. You all know that your fathers are indeed your fathers and that your mothers are indeed your mothers &#8211; you all know that don&#8217;t you? You cannot deny it. Now, we are told in scriptures that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God in the flesh. Well, now for the benefit of the older ones, how are children begotten? I answer just as Jesus Christ was begotten of his father&#8230;Now my little friends, I will repeat again in words as simple as I can, and you ask your parents about it, that God, the Eternal Father, is literally the father of Jesus Christ.&#8221; (Joseph F. Smith, Box Elder Stake Conference Dec 20, 1914 as quoted in Brigham City Box Elder News, 28 Jan, 1915, pp.1-2. see also Family Home Evening [Manual], copyright 1972 by Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, pages 125-126).</p>
<p>[5]&#8220;The birth of the Savior was a natural occurrence unattended with any degree of mysticism, and the Father God was the literal parent of Jesus in the flesh as well as in the spirit,&#8221; (Joseph Fielding Smith, Religious Truths Defined, p. 44)</p>
<p>[6] &#8220;The only instance of offspring from woman dissociated from mortal fatherhood is the birth of Jesus the Christ, who was the earthly Son of a mortal mother, begotten by an immortal Father. He is the Only Begotten of the Eternal Father in the flesh, and was born of woman.&#8221; (James E. Talmage, Jesus the Christ, Ch.5, p.43)   </p>
<p>[7] &#8220;No man or woman can live in mortality and survive the presence of the Highest except by the sustaining power of the Holy Ghost. So it came upon her [Mary] to prepare her for admittance into the divine presence, and the power of the Highest, who is the Father, was present, and overshadowed her, and the holy Child that was born of her was called the Son of God. Men who deny this, or who think that it degrades our Father, have no true conception of the sacredness of the most marvelous power with which God has endowed mortal men&#8212;the power of creation. Even though that power may be abused and may become a mere harp of pleasure to the wicked, nevertheless it is the most sacred and holy and divine function with which God has endowed man. Made holy, it is retained by the Father of us all, and in his exercise of that great and marvelous creative power and function, he did not debase himself, degrade himself, nor debauch his daughter. Thus Christ became the literal Son of a divine Father, and no one else was worthy to be his father.&#8221; (Sermons and Missionary Services of Melvin J. Ballard, p. 167)</p>
<p>[8] &#8220;That Child to be born of Mary was begotten of Elohim, the Eternal Father, not in violation of natural law but in accordance with a higher manifestation thereof; and, the offspring from that association of supreme sanctity, celestial Sireship, and pure though mortal maternity, was of right to be called the &#8220;Son of the Highest.&#8221; In His nature would be combined the powers of Godhood with the capacity and possibilities of mortality; and this through the ordinary operation of the fundamental law of heredity, declared of God, demonstrated by science, and admitted by philosophy, that living beings shall propagate &#8212; after their kind.&#8221; (J. Reuben Clark, Jr., Behold the Lamb of God, p.356)</p>
<p>[9] &#8220;These name-titles all signify that our Lord is the only Son of the Father in the flesh. Each of the words is to be understood literally. Only means only, begotten means begotten, and Son means son. Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in He same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers.&#8221;  (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 546)</p>
<p>[10] &#8220;The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints proclaims that Jesus Christ is the Son of God in the most literal sense. The body in which He performed His mission in the flesh was sired by that same Holy Being we worship as God, our Eternal Father. Jesus was not the son of Joseph, nor was He begotten by the Holy Ghost&#8221; (The Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, pg.7)</p>
<a class="a2a_dd addtoany_share_save" href="http://www.addtoany.com/share_save?linkurl=http%3A%2F%2Fmormonmatters.org%2F2009%2F12%2F10%2Flike-a-virgin%2F&amp;linkname=Like%20a%20Virgin"><img src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/plugins/add-to-any/share_save_171_16.png" width="171" height="16" alt="Share/Bookmark"/></a>]]></content:encoded>
			<wfw:commentRss>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/12/10/like-a-virgin/feed/</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>80</slash:comments>
		</item>
		<item>
		<title>Brother Brigham Brother Young</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/12/06/brother-brigham-brother-young/</link>
		<comments>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/12/06/brother-brigham-brother-young/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Dec 2009 06:23:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Anti-Mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Charity]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Culture]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Discrimination]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[LDS]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Leaders]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Mormons]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Priesthood]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Utah]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[abuse]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[adultery]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[apostasy]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[apostles]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[baptism]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[blacks]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[burdens]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[christianity]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[church]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[curiosity]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[death]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[depression]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[doubt]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[eternity]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[excommunication]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[faith]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[historicity]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[marriage]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[media]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[obedience]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[ordinances]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[polygamy]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[prophets]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[race]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[repentance]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[salvation]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[tesimony]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[thought]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[women]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=8449</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Recently I drove up Little Cottonwood  Canyon with my brother and nephew.  This is the canyon in which many of your ancestors pulled out  the granite for the construction of the salt lake temple. As soon as we passed the granite facings on the side of the canyon my nephew played a song on [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong><img class="alignleft size-full wp-image-8451" src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/corb-lund1.bmp" alt="corb lund" width="168" height="253" />Recently I drove up Little Cottonwood  Canyon with my brother and nephew.  This is the canyon in which many of your ancestors pulled out  the granite for the construction of the salt lake temple. As soon as we passed the granite facings on the side of the canyon my nephew played a song on his iPod by Corb Lund Brother Brigham Brother Young and it brought mental flashes into my mind of men working on the side of the mountain blasting granite out of it.    It made me think of the struggles that men and women had even back then with the faith in many ways very similar to our day. From what I have read Mr Lund isn&#8217;t LDS but has relatives that are. Im assuming one of his relatives is a historian buff? Its probably safe to presume this song will never be played in a chapel <img src='http://mormonmatters.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  but I can&#8217;t help liking it!  You can listen to his song <a href="http://www.last.fm/music/Corb+Lund/_/Brother+Brigham,+Brother+Young">Here<span id="more-8449"></span></a></strong></p>
<p><strong>Brother Brigham Brother Young</strong></p>
<p>music and lyrics by Corb Lund</p>
<p>I have sinned so gravely Brother Brigham, Brother Young<br />
I have sinned so gravely Brother Young<br />
That only you can save me Brother Brigham, Brother Young<br />
That only you can save me Brother Young</p>
<p>I have revealed the temples secrets Brother Brigham, Brother Young<br />
The temple garments, oaths and secrets Brother Young<br />
I have apostatized and doubted Brother Brigham, Brother Young<br />
And borne my testimony falsely Brother Young</p>
<p>And I have loved a woman Brother Brigham, Brother Young<br />
A woman in adultery Brother Young<br />
I have also wed a negress Brother Brigham, Brother Young<br />
My fifth wife has some color Brigham Young</p>
<p>I now see that you&#8217;re a prophet Brother Brigham, Brother Young<br />
A living, breathing prophet Brother Young<br />
And now I believe the revelations Brother Brigham, Brother Young<br />
I now believe your revelations, every one</p>
<p>Even the ones beyond all reason Brother Brigham, Brother Young<br />
Even the ones beyond all reason Brother Young<br />
For you&#8217;re the Lord&#8217;s own earthly prophet Brother Brigham, Brother Young<br />
And he’s simply testing in our faith o Brigham Young</p>
<p>My only hope for exaltation Brother Brigham, Brother Young<br />
My only chance for exaltation Brother Young<br />
Is to send me o&#8217;er the rim of the basin Brother Brigham, Brother Young<br />
The rim of the Great Salt Lake Basin Brother Young</p>
<p>For water cannot save me Brother Brigham, Brother Young<br />
Baptismal water cannot save me Brigham Young<br />
My sins are just too deep a dye o Brother Brigham, Brother Young<br />
My sins are just too deep a stain o Brother Young</p>
<p>So send Avenging Angels Brother Brigham, Brother Young<br />
Won&#8217;t you send Destroying Danites Brother Young<br />
To spill my blood upon the earth o Brother Brigham, Brother Young</p>
<p>So what do you think?</p>
<p>Do you find the song offensive?</p>
<p>Is it historicaly accurate of what may have happened to some of the saints in the salt lake valley?</p>
<p>Does it bare some similarites to what we have gone through in our day or not?</p>
<p><strong><br />
</strong></p>
<a class="a2a_dd addtoany_share_save" href="http://www.addtoany.com/share_save?linkurl=http%3A%2F%2Fmormonmatters.org%2F2009%2F12%2F06%2Fbrother-brigham-brother-young%2F&amp;linkname=Brother%20Brigham%20Brother%20Young"><img src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/plugins/add-to-any/share_save_171_16.png" width="171" height="16" alt="Share/Bookmark"/></a>]]></content:encoded>
			<wfw:commentRss>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/12/06/brother-brigham-brother-young/feed/</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>6</slash:comments>
		</item>
		<item>
		<title>Hypocrisy, Thy Name Is Biblical Translation</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/08/27/hypocrisy-thy-name-is-biblical-translation/</link>
		<comments>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/08/27/hypocrisy-thy-name-is-biblical-translation/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Aug 2009 18:08:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Ray</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Anti-Mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Bible]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[apologetics]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[book of mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[christianity]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[evangelicals]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[joseph]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[scripture]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=5983</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This probably will be the shortest post I ever write, but sometimes less is more.  I hope that is the case here. 
I have to shake my head in amusement - and sometimes really laugh &#8211; when I hear those who complain about the wording of the Book of Mormon (that it&#8217;s too much from the KJV of the Bible [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This probably will be the shortest post I ever write, but sometimes less is more.  I hope that is the case here. <span id="more-5983"></span></p>
<p>I have to shake my head in amusement - and sometimes really laugh &#8211; when I hear those who complain about the wording of the Book of Mormon (that it&#8217;s too much from the KJV of the Bible and the language Joseph and the people of his time spoke), while having no problem whatsoever with Christians using non-KJV, modern translations of the Bible because that version is too hard to understand. It&#8217;s totally fine to translate the Bible into words and phrases and a style that teenagers now will understand, but it&#8217;s not OK for Jospeh to use words and phrases the readers of his time would understand?  It&#8217;s fine for the Bible to go through extensive translations of varying degrees of difficulty for individual understanding, resulting in numerous acceptable versions (including some that without question are &#8220;20th and 21st Century versions&#8221;), but it&#8217;s not OK for Joseph to have translated the Book of Mormon into 19th Century, Christian terminology? </p>
<p><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">If people hundreds of years from now could access only the translations of the Bible written in modern English for modern teenagers, they would reject it out-of-hand as being a &#8220;product of its time&#8221; &#8211; exactly as so many people say they reject the Book of Mormon for that reason. </span></p>
<p>All other translation issues aside, I just find this particular argument amusing, since it really is a comical argument to make from within Christianity.  I have to believe those who use that rationale either don&#8217;t understand that modern translations of ancient works generally are written and &#8220;translated&#8221; in such as way that those who read it in that culture and time can understand it (&#8220;Romeo+Juiet&#8221; or &#8220;Oh, Brother, Where Art Thou&#8221;, anyone? &#8211; or the multitudinous versions of classics that get modernized as movies) <strong>OR</strong> that they have a deeper, more foundational reason for rejecting it &#8211; like a rejection of the overall prophetic calling of Joseph Smith. </p>
<p>I believe rejecting the Book of Mormon because of a rejection of Joseph Smith is a teneble position; I belive rejecting Joseph Smith because of a belief that the Book of Mormon linguistically is a &#8221;product of its time&#8221; is not. </p>
<p>Irony, thy name is scriptural translation.</p>
<a class="a2a_dd addtoany_share_save" href="http://www.addtoany.com/share_save?linkurl=http%3A%2F%2Fmormonmatters.org%2F2009%2F08%2F27%2Fhypocrisy-thy-name-is-biblical-translation%2F&amp;linkname=Hypocrisy%2C%20Thy%20Name%20Is%20Biblical%20Translation"><img src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/plugins/add-to-any/share_save_171_16.png" width="171" height="16" alt="Share/Bookmark"/></a>]]></content:encoded>
			<wfw:commentRss>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/08/27/hypocrisy-thy-name-is-biblical-translation/feed/</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>63</slash:comments>
		</item>
		<item>
		<title>What if the Brethren decided to allow gay marriage? by Justin Perry</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/08/16/what-if-the-brethren-decided-to-allow-gay-marriage-by-justin-perry/</link>
		<comments>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/08/16/what-if-the-brethren-decided-to-allow-gay-marriage-by-justin-perry/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Aug 2009 06:01:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Anti-Mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Bloggernacle]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Culture]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Discrimination]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Leaders]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Logic]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[apologetics]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[burdens]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[church]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[curiosity]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[doctrine]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[doubt]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[faith]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[gay]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[homosexuality]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[love]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[marriage]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[media manipulation]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[news]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[questioning]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[sexuality]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[thought]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[family]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[fos]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=6797</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[
What if the Brethren decided to allow gay marriage?  They&#8217;d have to do a lot of back-peddling to explain why they were suddenly in favor of something they stood against for so long.  But over time, the church&#8217;s previous &#8220;official&#8221; opposition to gay marriage would be downplayed, the Apostles who spoke publicly against [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div><img class="alignleft size-full wp-image-6798" src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/marriage.jpg" alt="marriage" width="182" height="270" /></div>
<div><span>What</span> <span>if</span> <span>the</span> <span>Brethren</span> decided <span>to</span> <span>allow</span> <span>gay</span> <span>marriage</span>?  They&#8217;d have <span>to</span> do a lot of back-peddling <span>to</span> explain why they <span>were</span> suddenly in favor of something they stood against for so long.  But over time, <span>the</span> church&#8217;s previous &#8220;official&#8221; opposition <span>to</span> <span>gay</span> <span>marriage</span> would be downplayed, <span>the</span> Apostles who spoke publicly against <span>gay</span> <span>marriage</span> would be criticized for giving their own personal, uninspired opinion, and new generations of LDS children would grow up in a church that accepted gays openly.<span id="more-6797"></span></p>
<p><span>If</span> <span>the</span> church did reverse their position on <span>gay</span> <span>marriage</span>, though, they wouldn&#8217;t automatically be off <span>the</span> hook.  <span>The</span> fact that they <span>were</span> <span style="font-style: italic">ever</span> against <span>gay</span> <span>marriage</span> would haunt them for decades <span>to</span> come.</p>
<p>I imagine there would be exchanges in newspapers and internet forums that would resemble something like <span>the</span> following:</div>
<div>
<blockquote>
<div><span style="font-weight: bold">Letter <span>to</span> <span>the</span> Editor, March 15th, 2039</span><br />
I think it is completely inappropriate for <span>the</span> Mormons <span>to</span> participate in this years <span>gay</span> rights parade.  Historically, <span>the</span> Mormons have done terrible things <span>to</span> gays, trying <span>to</span> &#8220;cure&#8221; them through cruel experiments at <span>the</span> Brigham Young College, denying them <span>the</span> priesthood for nearly 200 years, and taking away their right <span>to</span> marry after <span>the</span> government granted it <span>to</span> them in 2008.  Did you know that Mormons used <span>to</span> consider homosexuality a SIN??  Today, they still believe that <span>gay</span> people are mentally ill, as <span>if</span> homosexuality was some kind of mark of insanity.  <span>If</span> you don&#8217;t believe me, just Google some of <span>the</span> old speeches by <span>the</span> Mormon &#8220;Apostle&#8221; Dallin Oaks.<br />
Please be reasonable and don&#8217;t let <span>the</span> Mormons bring their prejudice <span>to</span> <span>the</span> public parade this Saturday.<br />
- Concerned Citizen</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<div><span style="font-weight: bold">Response, March 22nd, 2039</span><br />
I would like <span>to</span> respond <span>to</span> your accusation that Mormons are prejudiced or &#8220;anti-<span>gay</span>&#8220;.  First of all, let me say that my aunt and my cousin are both <span>gay</span>, and I love them and they are among <span>the</span> most faithful, well-respected members of our Stake.  I also once had a Bishop who was <span>gay</span> and he was a pillar of <span>the</span> community and a spiritual giant.  Before I say anything else, I would like <span>to</span> remind you that since <span>the</span> release of Official Declaration 3 on October 27th, 2025, <span>the</span> LDS church has extended <span>the</span> Priesthood <span>to</span> ALL WORTHY MALES, whether <span>gay</span>, straight, or celibate.</p>
<p>Regarding <span>the</span> church&#8217;s involvement in Prop 8 back in 2008: you have <span>to</span> understand <span>the</span> policical climate of <span>the</span> time.  This was a time when activist judges <span>were</span> legislating from <span>the</span> bench, overturning <span>the</span> will of <span>the</span> majority and ignoring <span>the</span> separation of powers.  Those judges <span>were</span> trying <span>to</span> force Californians <span>to</span> accept <span>gay</span> <span>marriage</span> against their will, and an unwilling public (whether right or wrong) is a dangerous public nonetheless.  Our <span>gay</span> brothers and sisters had suffered enough at <span>the</span> hands of <span>the</span> hate-mongering Fundamentalists.  <span>The</span> very last thing we wanted <span>to</span> do was <span>to</span> fan <span>the</span> flames of hate, granting rights <span>to</span> gays that <span>the</span> public simply wasn&#8217;t ready <span>to</span> give.  Voting against <span>gay</span> <span>marriage</span> IN THAT PLACE AND AT THAT TIME was <span>the</span> most loving, most humane thing we could do <span>to</span> stem <span>the</span> tide of hate-crimes perpetrated against gays.</p>
<p>I mean come on, you&#8217;ve seen <span>the</span> old news footage of Evangelicals yelling and screaming that &#8220;God hates gays&#8221; and &#8220;there are no Q***** in heaven&#8221;. Evangelicals in every state <span>were</span> picketing <span>the</span> funerals of dead soldiers saying <span>the</span> second Iraq war was God&#8217;s punishment for accepting <span>gay</span> <span>marriage</span>.  It goes without saying that those <span>were</span> dark, ignorant times. But let&#8217;s be reasonable: just because a couple of Apostles (born in a homophobic time, raised by homophobic parents, living in a homophobic country) may have expressed some personal opinions against gays doesn&#8217;t mean that they <span>were</span> speaking for all Mormons everywhere. Honestly, it really annoys me when people say, &#8220;Mormons believe that gays are sinners&#8221; because I AM a Mormon and I can assure you I know <span>what</span> I believe!</p>
<p>Admittedly, we don&#8217;t claim <span>to</span> understand all of <span>the</span> reasons why <span>the</span> Lord would have asked <span>the</span> Saints <span>to</span> vote against Prop 8 (<span>the</span> Lord works in mysterious ways, you know).  But this much is certain: <span>the</span> fact that some of <span>the</span> <span>Brethren</span> asked a handful of Latter-day Saints in California OVER 30 YEARS AGO <span>to</span> vote against <span>gay</span> <span>marriage</span> IN NO WAY diminishes our love and respect for our <span>gay</span> brothers and sisters, many of whom lead our church today.</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<a class="a2a_dd addtoany_share_save" href="http://www.addtoany.com/share_save?linkurl=http%3A%2F%2Fmormonmatters.org%2F2009%2F08%2F16%2Fwhat-if-the-brethren-decided-to-allow-gay-marriage-by-justin-perry%2F&amp;linkname=What%20if%20the%20Brethren%20decided%20to%20allow%20gay%20marriage%3F%20by%20Justin%20Perry"><img src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/plugins/add-to-any/share_save_171_16.png" width="171" height="16" alt="Share/Bookmark"/></a>]]></content:encoded>
			<wfw:commentRss>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/08/16/what-if-the-brethren-decided-to-allow-gay-marriage-by-justin-perry/feed/</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>179</slash:comments>
		</item>
		<item>
		<title>Apostate = someone who fails to honor his own conscience</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/08/03/apostate-someone-who-fails-to-honor-his-own-conscience/</link>
		<comments>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/08/03/apostate-someone-who-fails-to-honor-his-own-conscience/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Aug 2009 06:02:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Anti-Mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Bloggernacle]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[accountability]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[apostasy]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[book of mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[doctrine]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[doubt]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[faith]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=6560</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[
The third ward verses the seventh ward. Us verses them. Insiders verses outsiders. My buddies and I were third warders. We were full of ourselves. But why wouldn’t we be? Our ward display case was full of softball trophies. Our scouting program was full of Eagle scouts. Our report cards were full of A’s. And [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p style="text-align: center" align="center"><img class="aligncenter size-full wp-image-6563" src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/Apostate1.JPG" alt="Apostate" width="115" height="151" /></p>
<p>The third ward verses the seventh ward. Us verses them. Insiders verses outsiders. My buddies and I were third warders. We were full of ourselves. But why wouldn’t we be? Our ward display case was full of softball trophies. Our scouting program was full of Eagle scouts. Our report cards were full of A’s. And our bulletin board was full of missionary photos. By comparison, the guys in the seventh ward had few of those things. I needed those guys, but only to remind me how low they were. The lower I made them out to be, the higher I stood. Loving my neighbor didn&#8217;t apply to the seventh ward.<span id="more-6560"></span></p>
<p>Dan arrived in town and moved into the seventh ward when he and I were about thirteen years old. He was a nice enough kid, but ward boundaries made him an outsider. I had my third ward friends. He just wasn&#8217;t one of them.</p>
<p>One day in a junior high school science class, Dan sat down on the tip of pencil I happened to be holding. I felt bad for doing it, but not bad enough to have kept me from doing it in the first place.</p>
<p>Dan and I attended the same schools, same dances, same seminary, and had our missionary farewells and homecomings in the same building. But our paths seldom crossed. As adults, we went our separate ways. In my early thirties, my young family and I moved into Dan’s ward. I was called to be his home teacher, and got to know him for the first time.</p>
<p>Dan worked as an Electronics Technician, and had made a career as a civilian working for the Goverment. He was skilled with circuit boards and other electrical doodads that would undoubtedly boggle my mind. As a fix-it man, he&#8217;d take stuff that didn&#8217;t work and turn it into stuff that did work.</p>
<p>I became a Licensed Professional Counselor. As such, I had developed the capacity to feel empathy for virtually all my clients, to enter their world in a sense, and validate them for their good and encourage them to do better. Multiple forces created them and multiple course corrections lay within their grasp. They often chose paths I wouldn&#8217;t have taken, but that was okay. I honored their right to exercise their agency, and believed any attempt to manipulate or coerce them violated the principle we all stood for in a distant veiled time and place.</p>
<p>Dan had grown into an outgoing, friendly, and respected man, both at work and in his ward. He cultivated rich and lasting friendships, and generously included me in his circle of friends. His generosity stung my adult conscience. Dan and his wife,  hosted parties and barbeques, and opened up their swimming pool—possibly the only one in the whole town—to our families.</p>
<p>Dan, the conversationalist, and I, the professional listener, served each other well. He shared many stories from his childhood, and I began to see that, even though we had attended church in the same building, we had outrageously different experiences. While my buddies and I were studying chemistry together, many of the boys in his neighborhood were practicing the art of “better living through chemicals.” While our priest quorum advisor taught us to respect women, his advisor had the boys make an oath of secrecy before introducing them to his pornography stash. “You can&#8217;t tell anyone,” the advisor advised. “People won’t understand.” When our Sunday school teacher taught us the sacred value of chastity, his told the kids that it was all a big lie, that he and his girlfriend were having sex, that there was nothing wrong with it, and then he encouraged his students to share how far they’d gone. And while I taught the gospel and encouraged people to join the church as a young missionary, Dan’s mission president manipulated, coerced, and intimidated the missionaries into implementing a teaching program based on manipulation, coercion, and intimidation.</p>
<p>I wondered how I would have responded to a priest quorum advisor who used Play Boy and Hustler as lesson manuals. How would I have responded to a coercive mission program, especially after learning late in my mission that the program originated with the presiding general authority and my mission president despised the program as much as I did?</p>
<p>Dan seemed none the worse for wear. He had become a high priest and served where called, including positions of leadership. He even sat in judgment with other leaders and occasionally joined with them to turn insiders into outsiders.</p>
<p>I added his stories to hundreds of others I’d heard over the years and placed them on a shelf in my personal library. Other prominent stories in my library came from my work with victims of domestic violence. I had learned through their remarkably similar stories that trauma is usually the result of violated expectations. When a priesthood-bearing husband violates his wife&#8217;s expectation of respect, then she quite naturally loses respect for him. Her respect for “the priesthood,” however, usually remains intact. If, however, when she seeks help from “the Church,” and finds “the priesthood” aligning with her husband, then often the violation is too great to bear. She learns that not only is she married to an abuser, but that she is a member of an abusive church. The Church ceases to be “true” for her because her expectations have been violated at a foundational level. Sometimes she loses her faith in God, or perhaps worse, that if God exists, He&#8217;s the lead despot in a kingdom of aspiring despots.</p>
<p>After living in Dan’s ward for some six years, Sarah and I decided for the second time in our marriage to move far from our home communities—this time to a small town on an island in the pacific. I kept occasional contact with Dan for the next several years. He was fine. New home, new ward, new community. Promotions, raises, and professional success. Then last winter Dan called and told me he’d been reading about DNA and Book of Mormon archeology. “Did you know about that?” he asked.</p>
<p>“Yes, I’ve read a bit,” I said.</p>
<p>“And that book by Ferguson? My dad bases his testimony on that book. Did you know the author left the church?”</p>
<p>“Yes, I remember reading that.”</p>
<p>“How come you never told me?”</p>
<p>“What would I have said?”</p>
<p>“You know,” he said, “I used to tell my investigators that archeologists used the Book of Mormon to help them know where to dig.”</p>
<p>Dan found a listening ear with me—something not always easy to do when discussing the darker aspects of LDS history. He became consumed with discovering the truth. Every Google search result dripped burning acid on his foundational church circuit board. The Kinderhook Plates, the Book of Abraham, The Nauvoo Expositor, Adam/God, scriptural revisions and reversals, first vision accounts, peep stones, the Masons and the temple endowment, and the ugly details surrounding polygamy; standard fare for anti-Mormons. Each new discovery produced a new violation of his expectations until his expectations changed, and then each new discovery confirmed his new expectations. Always a man of deep integrity and still a conversationalist, Dan shared his findings with his wife, his neighbors, and his friends. Some would tell him, “Dan, I’ve learned to put those questions on the shelf for now.”</p>
<p>“You’ve got a mighty big shelf,” Dan would reply.</p>
<p>I spoke to him as a counselor would speak to a client, disclosing little of my own doubts and fears. We discussed Fowler’s stages of change, the process of grief, personality theory, our own family of origin issues, and the relativity of agency. One day he said, “What I did to those people on my mission was wrong. We actually lured people to the church to watch a movie, and then we’d take them in little classrooms and block the door until they got the right answer. I had women in tears. I hated it at first, but after a while I felt proud at how good I was at overcoming objections. I’d apologize if I could.”</p>
<p>We discussed the fact that his was not the only mission where such tactics were used.</p>
<p>“It didn’t start with us, ” he said, “and others have done far worse. I didn’t isolate young girls and women, some of them already married, and tell them they’d go to hell if they didn’t marry me.”</p>
<p>“You know, Dan. Some people consider those words to be blasphemy.”</p>
<p>“But if it’s true, isn’t is blasphemy not to speak them?”</p>
<p>Silence.</p>
<p>“I don’t get it. The general authority who forced us to force people into the church gets up in general conference and bears his testimony. But if I dare mention the truth, then I’m at risk of excommunication.”</p>
<p>“We’re not very good at loving our enemies,” I said.</p>
<p>“Mountain Meadows?”</p>
<p>“A little dramatic, but the same concept.”</p>
<p>“But I’m not bragging about killing the prophet.”</p>
<p>“No, but you’re slam dunking our image of the prophet.”</p>
<p>Silence.</p>
<p>“Move slowly, Dan. You’re not the first to walk this path.”</p>
<p>“No, but it’s <em>my</em> first time.”</p>
<p>“Some come out stronger for it.”</p>
<p>“I’ve got bishops taking me out for lunch, and family and friends praying for my apostate soul.”</p>
<p>“I believe an apostate is someone who fails to honor his own conscience. Some people who stay in the church are apostates, and some people who leave are saints.”</p>
<p>“Now <em>that’s</em> apostate,” Dan said. “And I couldn’t agree more.”</p>
<p>Dan scares me. As a boy and young missionary, he survived a fair number of church related violated expectations. Now, as a middle-aged adult, his new beliefs separate him from the mainstream church. He’s become an outsider—one of them. Of course, the new Dan places tremendous stress on the key people in his life—his wife, family, and friends—and they are dealing with their own violated expectations. What makes a guy like Dan respond to church history the way he does? What keeps more of us from joining him? Why do we love those who investigate themselves into the church and despise those who investigate themselves out? Why is it okay for our leaders to declare they’re not perfect, but it’s not acceptable for members to actually discuss their mistakes and declare them to be so? And if we can’t discuss their mistakes, don’t we increase our chances of repeating them—just as Dan and thousands of other missionaries were coerced to do in their formative years? Is it courage or foolishness that motivates Dan to share his findings? Is it prudence or cowardice that keeps my mouth shut? Am I apostate for staying, apostate for holding back, or apostate for leaving &#8220;Zion&#8221; and hiding out in my isolated little town?</p>
<p>I don’t know for sure. Maybe I’m just the lukewarm water that God is going to spew out at the last day. But I do know that I’ve seen too much good to leave and too much bad to fully join in. At any rate, Dan’s right. I keep a mighty big shelf in my library. Sometimes I peruse a few pages, sometimes I speed read, and occasionally I concentrate enough to imprint violating images upon my mind. I squirm in the presence of my shelf. But it’s only one shelf in an entire library. I’m not willing to forget all the other shelves and the books and stories I keep on those shelves that have nourished me over the years.</p>
<p>Recently the Southwesterly winds stirred up the seas. I hiked with a friend to a stunning place named Pucker Point. Granite cliffs, some fifty feet high, defiantly jut into the incoming surge as if to say, “Bring it on. I can take it.”  Towering seawater walls exploded on the rocks, shooting tons of foaming water into the air, just out of our reach, and sometimes blocking our view of the sepia toned sky. I watched the waves roil and roll forward along each side of the point, until they rose up on land and then crashed back into themselves. I positioned myself on the edge of the cliff to maximize my terror. I imagined myself sitting in a kayak in a small section of relatively calm waters. And then my stomach tightened as the next wall buried my imaginary self.</p>
<p>Waves like these waves have been crashing against the edge of the earth for millions, if not billions of years. I am both repulsed and drawn to them. I sense that for now at least, I’ll continue to search them out and experience them, just close enough to quake in their presence but far enough to remain on solid rock.</p>
<p>Sometimes I wish for a safer world, a world without military bases, domestic violence therapists, large shelves, and mangled circuit boards. Our scriptures suggest such a world has existed, but as inspiring as it sounds, it makes for poor reading. Stories are born of conflict, contradiction, paradox, good and evil, and overwhelming need. When those things are gone, stories end. As long as human nature remains unchanged, there will always exist one ward verses another, us verses them, and insiders verses outsiders. And good people like Dan will continue to seek out truth, and be violated in the process. Like the churning seas, Dan’s stories and the stories of so many others both repulse and draw me closer. I want to mourn with those who find themselves on the outside—bruised and hurting, but I fear the consequences of retelling their stories and honoring their choices. “Perfect love casteth out fear.” I wouldn&#8217;t know. I realize now that fear has been a major motivator all my life. When I was kid, I didn&#8217;t win those softball trophies and I dropped out of scouts as a tenderfoot. I huddled close to my third ward friends partially because I was afraid I didn&#8217;t measure up, and I might find myself on the outside. And, as much as I hate to admit it, all these years later, fear continues to motivate me. Who would I be without it? How would my life be different if I enjoyed perfect love? Perhaps it&#8217;s ironic that I&#8217;m afraid to consider those questions too deeply.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know much for certain. But I know that the seas of the world are crashing against ancient rocks this very moment, and I would guess they&#8217;ll continue to do so long after my shelf and Dan &#8217;s circuit boards are lost and forgotten. As a kid, loving outsiders like Dan didn&#8217;t really matter to me—it wasn&#8217;t safe. More and more I&#8217;m coming to believe that loving Dan and everyone else is just about the only thing that really does matter—safe or not.</p>
<p><em>We&#8217;d like to thank our friend from Sunstone for submitting the above post</em></p>
<p><strong>Please discuss</strong></p>
<a class="a2a_dd addtoany_share_save" href="http://www.addtoany.com/share_save?linkurl=http%3A%2F%2Fmormonmatters.org%2F2009%2F08%2F03%2Fapostate-someone-who-fails-to-honor-his-own-conscience%2F&amp;linkname=Apostate%20%3D%20someone%20who%20fails%20to%20honor%20his%20own%20conscience"><img src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/plugins/add-to-any/share_save_171_16.png" width="171" height="16" alt="Share/Bookmark"/></a>]]></content:encoded>
			<wfw:commentRss>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/08/03/apostate-someone-who-fails-to-honor-his-own-conscience/feed/</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>92</slash:comments>
		</item>
		<item>
		<title>Who is a Cultural Mormon?</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/07/04/who-is-a-cultural-mormon/</link>
		<comments>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/07/04/who-is-a-cultural-mormon/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Jul 2009 12:31:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Andrew S</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Anti-Mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Culture]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Mormons]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[apostasy]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[diversity]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[international]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[obedience]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[cultural mormonism]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=6028</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[First, Happy Independence Day (yay)!
&#8230;so I was digging through classic Mormon Matters and found Clay&#8217;s discussion asking: how much does church activity has to do with being Mormon anyway? He opened with something interesting:
Not so long ago, when I would hear about someone who didn’t go to church at all or have any interest in [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First, Happy Independence Day (yay)!</p>
<p>&#8230;so I was digging through <em>classic</em> Mormon Matters and found Clay&#8217;s discussion asking: <a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2008/09/24/how-much-does-church-activity-have-to-do-with-being-mormon/">how much does church activity has to do with being Mormon anyway</a>? He opened with something interesting:</p>
<blockquote><p>Not so long ago, when I would hear about someone who didn’t go to church at all or have any interest in returning would refer to themselves as Mormon, I would be annoyed that they still identified themselves that way. I used to see being Mormon as a choice, as a religious path, and if you aren’t choosing it then you only make a bad name for the rest of us… or so I felt at that time.</p></blockquote>
<p>I was excited&#8230;a post aimed at me! Yet later (the very next sentence), he writes:</p>
<blockquote><p>Yet, it seems there is something deeply cultural about being Mormon, especially those raised or at least members from a young age.</p></blockquote>
<p>Oh.<br />
<span id="more-6028"></span></p>
<p>So, I thought&#8230;Most of us recognize the depth of Mormonism as a culture. (If you don&#8217;t, I&#8217;ll submit that you&#8217;re behind the times and <a href="http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/03/mormon-identity-and-culture/">T&amp;S</a> has already jumped aboard). If so, I think Clay&#8217;s next question (again, the very next sentence), is good:</p>
<blockquote><p>How much does your activity in church determine how “Mormon” you really are?</p></blockquote>
<p>(I promise I&#8217;m not just stealing Clay&#8217;s post. Seriously.)</p>
<p>The question is&#8230;what are the traits that make Mormonism endure as a <em>culture</em> and not simply religion? When people leave certain religions, the break is clean. Many people don&#8217;t linger for years and years as an &#8220;ex-Baptist,&#8221; for example. But with our church, we have that famous phrase about people who &#8220;leave the church but can&#8217;t leave it alone.&#8221; (And I&#8217;m under e-indictment for being an <em>anti</em>-Mormon, of all things, because of such a claim.) You may similarly know &#8220;lapsed Catholics&#8221; or  &#8220;secular Jews&#8221; (let&#8217;s ignore the elephant of actual <em>ethnicity</em> for that one).</p>
<p>With Mormonism in particular, we have a particularly strange phenomenon where ex-members can end up being vehemently opposed to the church, but they simply are not able to move away from their old heritage. Ignoring any possible faith-promoting answers (&#8220;ooh, that&#8217;s the Holy Ghost~!&#8221;), we can at least realize that we have a pervasive culture in our hearts. And it may be a good idea to delve deeper in <em>how</em> or <em>what</em> this culture is, so we can (try to) improve it.</p>
<p>From a comment a long time ago on the unlikeliest of places (Prop 8 day at <a href="http://ldstalk.wordpress.com/2008/11/08/mormons-get-the-yoke-of-opposition-to-same-sex-marriage/#comment-6098">LDS &amp; Evangelical Conversations blog</a>), Seth R. from <a href="http://www.nine-moons.com/">Nine Moons</a> remarked [I hope my comment patchwork isn't a misinterpretation]:</p>
<blockquote><p>I’d have a much easier time renouncing US citizenship than my faith. I don’t feel that (&#8220;American&#8221; describes me a whole lot more comprehensively than &#8220;Mormon&#8221;). I felt more in common with Mormons in Japan than I do with people in my own town right now.</p></blockquote>
<p>I was impressed with these comments, so I <a href="http://irresistibledisgrace.wordpress.com/2008/11/24/which-culture-pervades-more-religious-or-national/">posted about it </a>a while back. As a military kid, I can <em>certainly</em> agree that I don&#8217;t feel I have a &#8220;home&#8221; in any one <em>location</em> or <em>nation</em>, but I most certainly have a lot in common with fellow Mormons. We share a language.</p>
<p>But indeed, I do present a conundrum, as Clay points out. Can a nonbeliever be Mormon just because he was raised that way? Does it have anything to do with being born into the church? Hawkgrrrl wrote a comment to Clay&#8217;s post:</p>
<blockquote><p>I think there is a difference between a convert who leaves the church and one who was BIC and leaves the church. In the former case, there would probably be less “residual Mormanity” than in the latter case. Being raised Mormon (vs. being a previously practicing Mormon).</p></blockquote>
<p>Is that so? I <a href="http://www.lifeongoldplates.com/2009/06/born-again-mormon-review-part-5-they.html">talked with BHodges at Life on Gold Plates </a>and he made an interesting point for <a href="http://www.lifeongoldplates.com/2009/06/born-again-mormon-review-part-5-they.html?showComment=1246483908701#c8606914730329363188">BIC ex-mormons who relinquish their &#8220;residual Mormanity.&#8221;</a></p>
<p>Do regionalisms matter? Am I less culturally Mormon because I&#8217;ve never lived in Utah? Because I am <a href="http://www.myregisblog.com/2009/06/thank-thee-for-moisture.html">thankful for rain, not moisture</a>? In the past, BCC has had a <a href="http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/02/14/mormon-culture-tournament-the-sweet-sixteen-part-the-first/">Mormon culture tournament</a>&#8230;could we make an accurate cultural literacy test from it?</p>
<p>Cultural Mormonism has been viewed as that <a href="http://hamsy2000.wordpress.com/2009/04/20/cultural-mormons/">weird Utah thing</a>, something that degrades true religion. On the other hand&#8230;children with Mormon identities, as long as they are <em>happy</em> with this identity, indeed &#8220;<a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/prov/22/6#6">never depart</a>&#8221; from it. (If they are unhappy with it, they also never depart from it, and that produces bad consequences for all.) What say you?</p>
<p>If cultural Mormonism is focused in the Jello Belt, then what does that say about a religion that thrives from converts (especially <a href="http://ldschurchgrowth.blogspot.com/2009/06/update-on-church-growth.html">converts in other nations</a>)? While it seems intuitive to say a Utah Mormon understand culture more than a Japanese Mormon&#8230;it seems contradiction.</p>
<p>I have my eye on <strong>correlation</strong>. With correlation, every ward gets a similar foundation. So, the basic LDS lingo is the same everywhere. This, in combination with the church&#8217;s many activities, opportunities, standards, and practices, should &#8220;socialize&#8221; members who will attend for a critical period. So, perhaps it is that one <em>must</em> be active for some critical period to be socialized, and then they become culturally Mormon, regardless of future activity. This would allow for Seth to identify with the other Japanese saints, while allowing for regionalist distinctions. This will also allow for a culture that one doesn&#8217;t easily depart from, even when they <em>want</em> to.</p>
<p>And so, as a new question that has sprung about, what do you think about the pervasiveness of the culture? What does it mean for ex-members who remain? Does it possibly work against the church to create anti-Mormons? And who is anti- anyway? Is it anyone who disbelieves and speaks about it?</p>
<a class="a2a_dd addtoany_share_save" href="http://www.addtoany.com/share_save?linkurl=http%3A%2F%2Fmormonmatters.org%2F2009%2F07%2F04%2Fwho-is-a-cultural-mormon%2F&amp;linkname=Who%20is%20a%20Cultural%20Mormon%3F"><img src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/plugins/add-to-any/share_save_171_16.png" width="171" height="16" alt="Share/Bookmark"/></a>]]></content:encoded>
			<wfw:commentRss>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/07/04/who-is-a-cultural-mormon/feed/</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>68</slash:comments>
		</item>
		<item>
		<title>Japanese: A Modern Case for Reformed Egyptian</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/06/27/japanese-a-modern-case-for-reformed-egyptian/</link>
		<comments>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/06/27/japanese-a-modern-case-for-reformed-egyptian/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Jun 2009 17:11:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Ray</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Anti-Mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Scriptural translation]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[book of mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[historicity]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[history]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[restoration]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[scripture]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[smith]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=6031</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[One of the common complaints about and arguments against the Book of Mormon is the claim that it was written in &#8220;Reformed Egyptian&#8221; &#8211; a unique and obsolete language that was peculiar to the Nephites and could not be read by anyone else.  There have been many things written about this issue over the years, some [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of the common complaints about and arguments against the Book of Mormon is the claim that it was written in &#8220;Reformed Egyptian&#8221; &#8211; a unique and obsolete language that was peculiar to the Nephites and could not be read by anyone else.  There have been many things written about this issue over the years, some of which are merely skeptical and more of which are mocking.  One of the common themes has been, &#8220;Well, that&#8217;s convenient.  There&#8217;s no way to check any language for accuracy and veracity.  Great con scheme.&#8221;  What the people who wrote these things in the past and say them now didn&#8217;t and don&#8217;t realize is that there is a modern example of exactly such a language &#8211; one that is unique to its own people and, in many instances, cannot be read even by those from whom its written foundation was taken. </p>
<p>That example is modern Japanese. <span id="more-6031"></span></p>
<p>First, <a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/morm/9/32#32">Mormon 9:32 </a>is the only verse in the Book of Mormon that includes the actual phrase &#8220;reformed Egyptian&#8221;.  It says:</p>
<blockquote><p>And now, behold, we have written this record according to our knowledge, in the characters which are called among us the <span>reformed</span> <span>Egyptian</span>, <strong>being handed down and altered by us, **according to our manner of speech**.</strong> </p></blockquote>
<p>There are two other verses that mention the Egyptian language &#8211; <a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_ne/1/2#2">1 Nephi 1:2</a> and <a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/mosiah/1/4#4">Mosiah 1:4</a>.  They read, respectively:</p>
<blockquote><p>I make a record in the language of my father, which consists of the learning of the Jews and the language of the <span>Egyptians</span>. </p>
<p>and</p></blockquote>
<blockquote><p>For it were not possible that our father, Lehi, could have remembered all these things, to have taught them to his children, except it were for the help of these plates; for he having been taught in the language of the <span>Egyptians</span> therefore he could read these engravings, and teach them to his children, that thereby they could teach them to their children, and so fulfilling the commandments of God, even down to this present time.</p></blockquote>
<p>The premise of these passages is that Lehi read Egyptian and used the hieroglyphs as the basis of the written language that was used in engraving the record he kept on the large plates (and which he taught to Nephi, at least, so he could continue the record) &#8211; but that, over time, those hieroglyphs were modified from their original forms to become a unique written language called &#8220;reformed Egyptian&#8221;.  It also is apparent that Lehi&#8217;s children did not read Egyptian naturally &#8211; that Lehi had to &#8220;teach them to his children&#8221; and have them &#8220;teach them to their children&#8221;.  It has been argued that this written language was reserved for the sacred and historical records &#8211; that it was not the &#8220;common written language&#8221; of the people, if there even was such a common language.  Given the numerous statements in the Book of Mormon about the need to write in a condensed form due to the size of the plates, this makes perfect sense &#8211; as does the practice of passing them down along bloodlines (inlcuding &#8220;non-prophets&#8221; at the end of the small plates, particularly in the Book of Omni), then ruling lines, then prophetic lines.  This practice is common throughout history with written records, since the vast majority of people were illiterate, but it plays a particular role in the formation of a &#8220;new&#8221; language, <strong>as it emphasizes the driving force behind the on-going modification of the language - the need to conserve space on plates that were difficult to make and, at the beginning especially, limited in total space.  Thus, the written language of the records was continually &#8220;altered by us&#8221; over time. </strong></p>
<p>Now, to Japanese:</p>
<p>There are many good descriptions of the Japanese writing system, but Wikipedia contains one of the simplest.  The entry for <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_writing_system">&#8220;Japanese Writing System&#8221;</a> includes a very good intorduction to the multiple &#8220;scripts&#8221; used in written Japanese.  In summary, there are three main scripts: &#8220;Kanji&#8221; &#8211; Chinese symbols that provide the foundation for the <strong>MEANING</strong> of words, pronounced totally differently than their Chinese pronunciation; &#8220;hiragana&#8221; &#8211; native Japanese alphabetic symbols that match to the spoken language, are syllabic in nature (each symbol represents a syllable, rather than an individual sound ["phonene"] as in English) and provide the necessary &#8220;fillers&#8221; (articles, conjunctions, conjugators, etc.) necessary to bridge between the kanji and spoken Japanese; and &#8220;katakana&#8221; &#8211; a modified form of hiragana used to designate the use of foreign words not found in native Japanese.  Also, in the last decades, &#8220;romaji&#8221; (Romanized spelling, where an American could read the standard English alphabet and pronounce the words as they would sound in Japanese) has been included.  Thus, modern Japanese is a combination of four separate &#8220;scripts&#8221;.  (There is an excellent, side-by-side chart with some examples of how one word could be written in all four scripts in the Wikipedia article.  Only one form, the original kanji, would be understood by a Chinese reader.) </p>
<p>What makes this fascinating in conjunction with &#8220;Reformed Egyptian&#8221; is not just that a new, unique language has been created, but that many modern Japanese kanji (the characters that were borrowed from Chinese) often cannot be recognized or read fluently by Chinese who have not studied them.  Over time, many of the most complex kanji have been altered significantly &#8211; always as simplifications of the former symbols, removing &#8220;strokes&#8221; from the original to make it easier to learn, less time consuming to write and easier to teach to children.  Furthermore, since spoken Chinese and Japanese are as different as spoken Japanese and English, the inclusion of hiragana and katakana further complicates the process of reading Japanese for those Chinese who have not studied it.  Most can get a good or general feel for the meaning of sentences that are strictly comprised of kanji and hiragana, since the kanji still match and convey <strong>MEANING</strong> (not pronunciation), but when more of the simplified kanji are included, along with katakana and words spelled entirely in hiragana, it becomes much more difficult for Chinese people to understand written Japanese.  (As I just said, untrained Chinese can&#8217;t understand spoken Japanese at all, so a Japanese could be reading something to a Chinese that the Chinese could understand if she read it &#8211; and the Chinese would not be able to understand what the Japanese was saying.) </p>
<p>In Book of Mormon terminology, modern written Japanese is &#8220;Reformed Chinese&#8221; &#8211; in <strong>EVERY</strong> sense that the term &#8220;Reformed Egyptian&#8221; is used in the Book of Mormon, right down to a complex hieroglyphic system being co-opted for meaning rather than pronunciation, that hieroglyphic system being simplified over time to make it easier to write and teach, and, perhaps, eventually being assimilated into some other script(s) and becoming nearly unreadable and &#8220;foreign&#8221; to those trained in the original hieroglyphic system. </p>
<p>There is no indication that Joseph, Emma, Oliver, Sydney or any of those who were prominent in the early history of the Book of Mormon were knowlegable to any degree of Japanese &#8211; <strong>and, in fact, many of the most radical transformations of written Japanese have occurred AFTER the publication of the Book of Mormon</strong>.</p>
<a class="a2a_dd addtoany_share_save" href="http://www.addtoany.com/share_save?linkurl=http%3A%2F%2Fmormonmatters.org%2F2009%2F06%2F27%2Fjapanese-a-modern-case-for-reformed-egyptian%2F&amp;linkname=Japanese%3A%20A%20Modern%20Case%20for%20Reformed%20Egyptian"><img src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/plugins/add-to-any/share_save_171_16.png" width="171" height="16" alt="Share/Bookmark"/></a>]]></content:encoded>
			<wfw:commentRss>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/06/27/japanese-a-modern-case-for-reformed-egyptian/feed/</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>49</slash:comments>
		</item>
		<item>
		<title>Learning and Understanding Vs. Winning Arguments</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/06/17/learning-and-understanding-vs-winning-arguments/</link>
		<comments>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/06/17/learning-and-understanding-vs-winning-arguments/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Jun 2009 12:00:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>AdamF</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Anti-Mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Charity]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Culture]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Peace]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[accountability]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[apologetics]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[christianity]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[diversity]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[evangelicals]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[faith]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[fear]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[grace]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[inter-faith]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[politics]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[questioning]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[religion]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=5620</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Why do you read and comment on blogs? What is your goal? Do you want to make points and debate with others? Is it more important for you to reach mutual understanding and learn from each other? Can both happen at the same time?
This is an adaptation of a post my good friend Ron wrote. [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why do you read and comment on blogs? What is your goal? Do you want to make points and debate with others? Is it more important for you to reach mutual understanding and learn from each other? Can both happen at the same time?</p>
<p>This is an adaptation of a post my good friend Ron wrote. He is Catholic, so with his consent I have modified some of it to fit the audience here, as well as added some of my own thoughts. It was inspired by some of his encounters with a &#8220;rather nasty Fundamentalist Christian&#8221; who was &#8220;more interested in winning an argument, rather than learning.&#8221; These points, however, may be applied to anyone who wants to prove other people wrong rather than understand or learn.</p>
<p><em>&#8220;After spending years debating <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_White_(theologian)" target="_blank">James White</a>, I have noticed common tactics employed by people who want to win at any cost rather than seek a mutual understanding of the facts or even work toward a mutual disagreement. Ann Coulter is a good example of a political satirist who engages in this sort of rhetoric. Let&#8217;s take a close look, shall we?&#8221;<span id="more-5620"></span></em></p>
<p><strong>1. Make an outrageous claim.</strong> It doesn&#8217;t matter if it&#8217;s out of Mormon Doctrine, or if you take a comment out of context, or if the side you&#8217;re on is just as guilty as those you are making accusations against. The goal is <em>not</em> to be fair minded or even accurate; all you need to be concerned with is igniting an emotional response from the other person. Remember, you are always right and your opponent is always wrong; your job is simply to supply enough rope for your opponent to hang himself. Manipulative (e.g. &#8220;Don&#8217;t you think _____?&#8221;) and leading questions are also really effective here.</p>
<p><strong>2. Rely on mocking or sarcasm to ignite passion.</strong> If you are of a conservative ilk, rely on a mocking or morally superior tone to deliver your message (Ann Coulter). If you are liberal use a lot of sarcastic humor to exalt yourself above your opponent&#8217;s attempts at presenting himself/herself as morally superior (Al Franken).</p>
<p><strong>3. Do not give an inch. </strong>If your opponent happens to <em>stumble</em> upon a true statement, ignore, deny, or reframe the conversation! In all cases, NEVER concede even a minor point to your opponent. Also, be sure to ignore any sincere questions by your opponent. In the very least do not answer them directly. Again, the point is not to help the other person understand you, but to prove they are wrong.</p>
<p><strong>4. Make Your opponent work harder.</strong> Always remember that you are right, regardless of the facts presented, and you will eventually prove it by weathering any storm that may be created due to the information your opponent happens to give you. Most importantly, put them in a place where they feel like they have to prove you wrong. If they present troubling information to you about your own position simply refuse to acknowledge it. The fact is your opponent is either a brainwashed innocent or at worst, a conniving interloper who has no right to challenge your superior position, and only appears to have the nerve to do so without merit.</p>
<p><strong>5. Do not bother reading posts or listening to response from your opponent. </strong>After all, reading your opponent&#8217;s posts may ignite emotions within yourself, or take your mind off your primary goal, WINNING! Instead of reading, skim your opponent&#8217;s post for statements that can be molded to aid you in your ultimate goal. The best statements are usually the most irrelevant to your opponents point&#8211;why re-post something meaningful or relevant? Oh, and make sure you continue to apply the steady drumbeat or either mocking/moral superiority, or sarcastic humor.</p>
<p><strong>6. Stay the course!</strong> <strong>Or leave! </strong>Whatever you do, just don&#8217;t engage! Eventually your opponent will either hang himself or simply tire of the interaction; in both cases, you must declare victory immediately. Like any good staring contest it is not the person that presents the best case who wins, but the person who is left standing. If it just keeps going you <em>may</em> want to consider eventually checking out. There are two ways to do this, either just disappear quietly until the next post comes along that you can slam, or make a big announcement about why you are not coming back. Try to make everyone reading it feel bad about your departure, and say self-deprecating stuff like &#8220;I guess I&#8217;m just not popular here&#8221;). Whatever you do, NEVER admit to any good points the other side made in their last comment, and when you come back, make sure it is only to attack again.</p>
<p>How can we avoid this? How can we learn together even when we disagree?</p>
<p><strong>1. Ask sincere, open-ended questions.</strong> Look around and you&#8217;ll be surprised how little actually happens. Example, &#8220;What do you think about _____?&#8221; Amazing concept, but so often we end up trying to trip each other. Make sure your questions are not meant to lead the other person down a particular path, or that you don&#8217;t have some hidden underlying agenda.</p>
<p><strong>2. If you use sarcasm or a lot of humor, be kind.</strong> Even if you don&#8217;t like emoticons, make sure others understand your intention, and don&#8217;t use it as a weapon. I know many people (myself included) like to use mocking now and then, but we must refrain.</p>
<p><strong>3. Acknowledge (write in your replies) when the other person has a good point. </strong> Or, *gasp* when they say something you agree with.</p>
<p><strong>4. Monitor the conversation to make sure it is not one-sided.</strong> Is there always one person on the attack and the other constantly on defense, or is it more even-handed?</p>
<p><strong>5. Consider the whole comment.</strong> Don&#8217;t just pick out stuff to argue with.</p>
<p><strong>6. Apologize when appropriate.</strong> Take a break when you need to, but don&#8217;t completely check out or make threats when you get upset. Come back and engage. We can all learn from each other.</p>
<p><strong>7. When in doubt, <a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2009/05/25/please-respect-the-rules-of-common-decency/" target="_blank">ask Ray</a> what to do.</strong> He will have the answer.</p>
<p>Why do you converse with others online? More specifically, why do you engage in commenting back and forth with other people on Mormon Matters? To share your views? To influence others? To learn from others?</p>
<p>What is your method of going about this? Debate? Crafting arguments? Sharing and working towards mutual understanding? What are the pros and cons of the different ways?</p>
<a class="a2a_dd addtoany_share_save" href="http://www.addtoany.com/share_save?linkurl=http%3A%2F%2Fmormonmatters.org%2F2009%2F06%2F17%2Flearning-and-understanding-vs-winning-arguments%2F&amp;linkname=Learning%20and%20Understanding%20Vs.%20Winning%20Arguments"><img src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/plugins/add-to-any/share_save_171_16.png" width="171" height="16" alt="Share/Bookmark"/></a>]]></content:encoded>
			<wfw:commentRss>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/06/17/learning-and-understanding-vs-winning-arguments/feed/</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>44</slash:comments>
		</item>
		<item>
		<title>Please Respect the Rules of Common Decency</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/05/25/please-respect-the-rules-of-common-decency/</link>
		<comments>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/05/25/please-respect-the-rules-of-common-decency/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 May 2009 23:09:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Ray</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Anti-Mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Beatitudes]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Charity]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Peace]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[abuse]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[accountability]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[diversity]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[inter-faith]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[love]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[meekness]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[mercy]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[questioning]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[religion]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=5480</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This is an administrative post that is irrelevant to most of you.  For that, I apologize.  However, we have had a surge recently in comments left by dedicated anti-Mormon activists &#8211; comments that have NOTHING to do with the posts on which they appear and that contain NOTHING constructive or enlightening. We also have had [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is an administrative post that is irrelevant to most of you.  For that, I apologize.  However, we have had a surge recently in comments left by dedicated anti-Mormon activists &#8211; comments that have NOTHING to do with the posts on which they appear and that contain NOTHING constructive or enlightening. We also have had a few comments by believing members that have come perilously close to crossing the lines of common decency, and one in particular that crossed those lines.<span id="more-5480"></span></p>
<p>As we have said multiple times, we delete or edit very, very few comments here at Mormon Matters.  This site was established to have an open forum for discussion among people with widely varying points of view and beliefs.  However, it was not and is not intended to be a site to spew bile, insult people and cast aspersions about others&#8217; faith.  The rules are simple and few, and they can be summarized as:</p>
<blockquote><p>Be civil.</p>
<p>Comment on the topic of the post.</p>
<p>Address what others say without disparaging them or their character.</p>
<p>Don&#8217;t blaspheme, use vulgar language, condemn &#8211; and don&#8217;t call people sinners who need to repent.</p>
<p>This is not a fourm for personal attacks, and it is not a forum for sweeping broadsides.</p>
<p>Disagreement is fine, even passionate disagreement, but ridicule and accusation and condemnation is not.</p></blockquote>
<p>I wish this post was not necessary, but please understand one thing:</p>
<p>As much as we believe in the free exchange of ideas and beliefs, comments that are only condemnatory and add nothing to the conversation will be deleted.</p>
<p>If anyone has suggestions or concerns, feel free to comment.  Just do so within the rules outlined above.</p>
<a class="a2a_dd addtoany_share_save" href="http://www.addtoany.com/share_save?linkurl=http%3A%2F%2Fmormonmatters.org%2F2009%2F05%2F25%2Fplease-respect-the-rules-of-common-decency%2F&amp;linkname=Please%20Respect%20the%20Rules%20of%20Common%20Decency"><img src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/plugins/add-to-any/share_save_171_16.png" width="171" height="16" alt="Share/Bookmark"/></a>]]></content:encoded>
			<wfw:commentRss>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/05/25/please-respect-the-rules-of-common-decency/feed/</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>8</slash:comments>
		</item>
		<item>
		<title>Debunking the Spaulding Theory</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/05/04/debunking-the-spaulding-theory/</link>
		<comments>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/05/04/debunking-the-spaulding-theory/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 May 2009 07:00:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Mormon Heretic</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Anti-Mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[apologetics]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[book of mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[books]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[historicity]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[scripture]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=5086</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[ 
In my previous post about Unconventional Book of Mormon Geography Theories, Doug G made a comment claiming that the Book of Mormon is related to the Solomon Spaulding Manuscript, so I want to address this theory.  Andrew Ainsworth did a post in February on the Curious Case of Solomon Spaulding, which talks more about [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!--[if gte mso 9]&gt; Normal   0               false   false   false      EN-US   X-NONE   X-NONE                                                     MicrosoftInternetExplorer4 &lt;![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]&gt; &lt;![endif]--><!--  --><!--[if gte mso 10]&gt; &lt;!   /* Style Definitions */  table.MsoNormalTable 	{mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; 	mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; 	mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; 	mso-style-noshow:yes; 	mso-style-priority:99; 	mso-style-qformat:yes; 	mso-style-parent:""; 	mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; 	mso-para-margin-top:0in; 	mso-para-margin-right:0in; 	mso-para-margin-bottom:10.0pt; 	mso-para-margin-left:0in; 	line-height:115%; 	mso-pagination:widow-orphan; 	font-size:11.0pt; 	font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; 	mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; 	mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; 	mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; 	mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin;} --> <!--[endif]--></p>
<p>In my previous post about <a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2009/04/20/unconventional-book-of-mormon-geography-theories/">Unconventional Book of Mormon Geography Theories</a>, Doug G <a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2009/04/20/unconventional-book-of-mormon-geography-theories/#comment-69622">made a comment</a> claiming that the Book of Mormon is related to the Solomon Spaulding Manuscript, so I want to address this theory.  Andrew Ainsworth did a post in February on <a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2009/02/02/the-curious-case-of-solomon-spaulding/">the Curious Case of Solomon Spaulding</a>, which talks more about the legal aspects of proving plagiarism.  Andrew is a lawyer, and I found his perspective interesting.</p>
<p><span id="more-5086"></span>Lest anyone think my quotes are from apologetic sources, let me discuss them.  My quotes are going to come from two books. (1) <a href="http://www.signaturebooks.com/sidney.htm">Sidney Rigdon:  Portrait of Religious Excess</a>, by Richard Van Wagoner (which I&#8217;ll abbreviate SR).  Chapter 11 is called Book of Mormon Authorship, and deals directly with the issue of whether Sidney Rigdon is the true author of the Book of Mormon, rather than Joseph Smith.  (2) <a href="http://www.amazon.com/No-Man-Knows-My-History/dp/0679730540/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&amp;s=books&amp;qid=1240752200&amp;sr=8-1">No Man Knows My History</a>, by Fawn Brodie (which I&#8217;ll abbreviate NM).  While Fawn Brodie was excommunicated for her book (thus increasing her stature in the eyes of skeptics), few people know much about Van Wagoner.  Van Wagoner&#8217;s book has received many awards, but has been <a href="http://farms.byu.edu/publications/review/?vol=14&amp;num=1&amp;id=411">criticized by FARMS</a> for being &#8220;fundamentally, not simply tangentially, defective.&#8221;  Any book criticized by FARMS often gives skeptics (like Doug G) reason to like the book.  Neither book is apologetic in nature.  Both books greatly discount the Spalding Manuscript theory.</p>
<p><strong>What is the Spaulding Manuscript?</strong></p>
<p>Solomon Spaulding was born in 1761 in Connecticut, and graduated from Dartmouth College (NH) in 1785.  He was a minister for the Congregational Church in New York, and later became a Presbyterian.  In 1809, he moved to Ohio and wrote a historical novel, narrated by a Roman sailor named Fabius who was shipwrecked in ancient America.  The book was never published, and he died in 1816.  After several changes of ownership (including the RLDS church), the manuscript has been donated to Oberlin College in Ohio, where it currently resides.  You may <a href="http://www.archive.org/details/themanuscriptsto00spauuoft">view the manuscript here</a>.</p>
<p><strong>What is the theory?</strong></p>
<p>What is quite interesting to me is that this theory dates back to literally 1831, and Rigdon has always denied the theory.  According to NM page 68,</p>
<p><em>The theory ran as follows:  The Book of Mormon was a plagiarism of an old manuscript by one Solomon Spaulding, which Sidney Rigdon somehow secured from a printing house in Pittsburgh.  After adding much religious matter to the story, Rigdon determined to publish it as a newly discovered history of the American Indian.  Hearing of a young necromancer Joseph smith, three hundred miles away in New York State, he visited him secretly and persuaded him to enact a fraudulent representation of its discovery.  Then nine months after the book&#8217;s publication Smith&#8217;s missionaries went to Ohio and the pastor pretended to be converted to the new church.</em></p>
<p><em>&#8230;</em></p>
<p><em>Through the years the &#8220;Spaulding theory&#8221; collected supporting affidavits as a ship does barnacles, until it became so laden with evidence that the casual reader was overwhelmed by the sheer magnitude of the accumulation.  The theory requires a careful analysis because it has been so widely accepted.  The documentary evidence on both sides is so burdensome, however, that I have relegated it to an appendix.</em></p>
<p><strong>Similarities</strong></p>
<p>There are some interesting similarities between the two books, which I will highlight below.  NM page 449 addresses the obvious similarities.  (I have changed the formatting to highlight the similarities, but the following is an exact quote from the NM book.)</p>
<p><em>There were certain similarities between the book of Mormon which, though not sufficient to justify the thesis of common authorship, might have given rise to the conviction of Spaulding&#8217;s neighbors that one was a plagiarism of the other.</em></p>
<ul class="unIndentedList">
<li> <em>Both were said to come out of the earth;</em></li>
<li> <em>Both were stories of colonists sailing from the Old World to the New;</em></li>
<li> <em>Both explained the earthworks and mounds common to western New York and Ohio as a result of savage wars.</em></li>
<li> <em>John Miller had spoken of the &#8220;humorous passages&#8221; in Spaulding&#8217;s work, which would certainly apply to the &#8220;Manuscript Story,&#8221; but not the utterly humorless Book of Mormon.</em></li>
<li> <em>Other features, like the scriptural style, </em></li>
<li> <em>the expression &#8220;it came to pass,&#8221; </em></li>
<li> <em>and the proper names, seem too definite to be questioned.</em></li>
</ul>
<p><strong>How did the theory come about?</strong></p>
<p>During 1830 and 1831, Mormon missionary work in Ohio flourished, including converts Sidney Rigdon, Orson Hyde, Orson Pratt, and Parley P Pratt (who were members of Rigdon&#8217;s Baptist congregation.)  When Sidney announced his conversion during his Baptist services and some 100 members of his congregation soon joined, there was much consternation among the members of his congregation who felt Sidney was badly deceived.  According to SR page 132,</p>
<p><em>Mormonism&#8217;s success in Ohio, particularly among Sidney&#8217;s Reformed Baptists, spelled conspiracy in some people&#8217;s eyes.  While eleven of Smith&#8217;s friends and relatives signed affidavits that they had examined the gold plates and seen the angel who delivered them to the prophet, many did not accept this supernatural explanation.  To cynics it seemed improbable that a semi-literate farm boy could author a literary work so intricate in plot and steeped in biblical lore as the Book of Mormon.</em></p>
<p><em>The logical explanation for the holy book was that Smith must have collaborated behind the scenes with someone better educated and more sophisticated.  A former school teacher, Oliver Cowdery, Smith&#8217;s major copyist during the project, was considerably better schooled than his prophet-cousin.  Cowdery was touted in the press as co-author of the Book of Mormon in the 25 November 1830 <strong>Cleveland Herald</strong>.  But as soon as Sidney made his late 1830 trip to New York to meet Smith, rumors surfaced that he, not Cowdery, was the mastermind behind the new scripture.</em></p>
<p><strong>Evidence that the Spaulding Manuscript is not the Source of the Book of Mormon</strong></p>
<p>Besides the fact that the Spaulding manuscript is just one-sixth the size of the Book of Mormon (meaning Joseph and Sidney needed to come up with much new material), Spaulding&#8217;s widow, Matilda Davison, gave the manuscript to Hurlburt.  NM page 144,</p>
<p><em>Now to his bitter chagrin he found that the long chase had been vain; for while the romance did concern the ancestors of the Indians, its resemblance to the Book of Mormon ended there.  None of the names found in one could be identified in the other;  the many battles which each described showed not the slightest similarity with those of the other, and Spaulding&#8217;s prose style, which aped the eighteenth-century British sentimental novelists, differed from the style of the Mormon Bible as much as <strong>Pamela, or Virtue Rewarded</strong> different from the New Testament. </em></p>
<p>(The manuscript Hurlburt found was published by the Reorganized Church in Lamoni, Iowa in 1885 under the title <strong>The Manuscript Found</strong>).  Continuing on,</p>
<p><em>Hurlburt knew, however, that he had a keg of powder even without the manuscript.  He boldly exhibited his affidavits in Kirtland, lectured in the surrounding towns, and arranged to publish the documents in book form with the assistance of Eber D. Howe.  The lectures caused a furor.</em></p>
<p>The appendix in NM page 447 gives additional insight into the manuscript.</p>
<p><em>She [Spaulding's widow] gave permission to examine the Spaulding&#8217;s papers in the attic of a farmhouse in Otsego County, New York; but he found there only one manuscript, which was clearly not the source for the Book of Mormon.  This was a romance supposedly translated from twenty-one rolls of parchment covered with Latin, found in a cave on the banks of the Conneaut Creek.  It was written in modern English and was about 45,000 words long, one sixth the length of the Book of Mormon.  It was an adventure story of some Romans sailing to Britain long before the Christian era, who had been blown to America during a violent storm.</em></p>
<p><strong>Hurlburt&#8217;s  Downfall/ED Howe takes over Issue</strong></p>
<p>Hurlburt at some point confronted Smith.  SR Page 136,</p>
<p><em>Smith and Rigdon were quick to defend the Mormon cause.  And at some point in the passion of a heated exchange, Hurlburt publicly threatened that he would &#8220;wash his hands&#8221; in the prophet&#8217;s blood.  In January 1834, Smith filed a legal complaint bringing Hurlburt to trial on 1 April.  The court found him guilty, fined him $200, and ordered him to keep the peace for 6 months.</em></p>
<p><em>The notoriety surrounding Hurlbut, compounded by an embarrassing incident when his wife was discovered in bed with Judge Orris Clapp, tarnished his image.  He sold his research to Eber D. Howe, editor of the <strong>Painesville Telegraph</strong>, who held a long-term grudge against Mormonism for converting his wife and daughter. </em></p>
<p>On Nov 28, 1834, The <strong>Painesville Telegraph</strong> contained the first advertisement of Howe&#8217;s book <strong>Mormonism Unvailed.</strong> It was one of the first published books attributing Rigdon as the real author of the Book of Mormon.   SR page 136,</p>
<p><em>While Howe admitted he had Spalding&#8217;s manuscript, it was obvious that the former minister&#8217;s work, a secular text, was not the source for the Book of Mormon, a lofty religious tome, although the introduction, ethnological assumptions, and mystical lore were undeniably similar.  To explain the enigmatic gaps in genre and plot, Howe wrote that his witnesses claimed Spalding had &#8220;altered his first plan of writing, by going farther back with dates, and writing in the old scripture style, in order that it might appear more ancient.&#8221;</em></p>
<p><em>Howe further purported that through some unspecified means, Rigdon must have secured this hypothetical second, revised manuscript while he was living in Pittsburgh.  He concluded: &#8220;We, therefore, must hold out Sidney Rigdon to the world as being the original ‘author and proprietor&#8217; of the whole Mormon conspiracy, until further light is elicited upon the lost writings of Solomon Spaulding.&#8221;</em></p>
<p><strong>Other Manuscripts?</strong></p>
<p>NM page 447-8 discusses the possibility of other manuscripts, and discounts them.</p>
<p><em>She [Spaulding's widow] told him that &#8220;Spaulding had a great variety of manuscripts&#8221; and recollected that one was entitled the &#8220;Manuscript Found,&#8221; but its contents she &#8220;had no distinct knowledge.&#8221;  During the two years she had lived in Pittsburgh, Spaulding had taken the manuscript to the office of Patterson and Lambdin, she said, but whether or not it had been returned was uncertain.</em></p>
<p><em>She gave Hurlbut permission to examine Spaulding&#8217;s papers in the attic of a farmhouse in Otswego, New York; but he found there only one manuscript, which was clearly not the source of the Book of Mormon.</em></p>
<p><em>&#8230;.</em></p>
<p><em>Hurlbut showed this manuscript to Spaulding&#8217;s neighbors, who, he said, recognized it as Spaulding&#8217;s, but stated that it was not the &#8220;Manuscript Found.&#8221;  Spaulding &#8220;had altered his first plan of writing, but going farther back with dates and writing in the Old Scripture style, in order that it might appear more ancient.&#8221;  This surmise may have been true, though there was no signed statement swearing to it.  But it seems more likely that these witnesses had so come to identify the Book of Mormon with the Spaulding manuscript that they could not concede having made an error without admitting to a case of memory substitution which they did not themselves recognize.</em></p>
<p>NM Page449,</p>
<p><em> Hurlbut, at least, was certain that Spaulding had written a second manuscript.  Eber D. Howe, Hurlbut&#8217;s collaborator, now wrote to Robert Patterson, the Pittsburgh printer mentioned by Spaulding&#8217;s widow.  He replied &#8220;that he had no recollection of any manuscript being brought there for publication, neither would he have been likely to have seen it, as the business of printing was conducted wholly by Lambdin at that time.&#8221;</em></p>
<p><em>&#8230;</em></p>
<p><em>Disappointed in this source, and unable to get any confirming evidence from Joseph&#8217;s neighbors in western New York, Hurlbut had to be content with insinuating that Sidney Rigdon, who had once lived in Pittsburgh, was somehow responsible for getting the Spaulding manuscript into Joseph Smith&#8217;s hands.</em></p>
<p><strong>Where was Rigdon between 1809 and 1830?</strong></p>
<p>Rigdon never met Spaulding (who died in 1816.)  NM Page 449-51</p>
<p><em>If the evidence pointing to the existence of a second Spaulding manuscript is dubious, the affidavits trying to prove that Rigdon stole it, or copied it, are all unconvincing and frequently preposterous.</em></p>
<p><em>First there is no evidence that Rigdon ever lived in Pittsburgh until 1822, when he became pastor of the First Baptist Church.  Robert Patterson, Jr., son of the Pittsburgh printer, conducted an exhaustive research among the old settlers of the vicinity to try to establish the truth of the Spaulding theory.  This was in 1882, sixty-six years after Spaulding&#8217;s death.  Many were familiar with the theory and believed it, he said, but few could give first-hand information.  Rigdon&#8217;s brother-in-law, not a Mormon, and Isaac King, and old neighbor, swore to him that Rigdon did not go to Pittsburgh before 1822.  Mrs. Lambdin, widow of Patterson&#8217;s partner, denied any knowledge of Rigdon, as did Robert P. DuBois, who had worked in the printing shop between 1818 and 1820.</em></p>
<p><em>One woman, who had worked as a mail clerk in Patterson&#8217;s office between 1811 and 1816, stated that she knew Rigdon and that he was an intimate friend of Lambdin&#8217;s but this was clearly untrue as evidenced by the statement of Lambdin&#8217;s widow that she had never heard of Rigdon&#8230;. </em></p>
<p>Brodie rejects other affidavits from this point on.  NM Page 453,</p>
<p><em>The tenuous chain of evidence accumulated to support the Spaulding-Rigdon theory breaks altogether when it tries to prove that Rigdon met Joseph Smith before 1830.</em></p>
<p><em>&#8230;.</em></p>
<p><em>Rigdon&#8217;s life between 1826 and 1829 has been carefully documented from non-Mormon sources.  It is clear from the following chronology that he was a busy and successful preacher and one of the leading figures of the Campbellite movement in Ohio.  Until August 1830, when he broke with Alexander Campbell over the question of introducing communism into the Campbellite Church, he was one of the four key men of that church.  It cannot be held that Rigdon rewrote the Spaulding manuscript before 1827, since the anti-Masonry permeating the book clearly stemmed from the Morgan excitement beginning late in 1826.</em></p>
<p>Brodie then lists all the known funerals, marriages, and other meetings of Rigdon between 1826 and 1830, along with gaps of information where his whereabouts are unknown.  It fails to show a link between Smith and Rigdon prior to Dec 1830.  By this time, the Book of Mormon had already been published.</p>
<p><strong>Rigdon and others&#8217; denials</strong></p>
<p>SR Page 133-4,</p>
<p><em>(1) </em><em> During the spring of 1833 or 1834, while visiting the home of Samuel Baker near New Portage, Ohio, Rigdon stated in the presence of a large gathering that he was aware some in the neighborhood had accused him of being the instigator of the Book of Mormon.  Standing in the doorway to address the audience in the yard, he held up a Book of Mormon and said:</em></p>
<p><em>‘I testify in the presence of this congregation, and before God and all the Holy Angels up yonder, (pointing toward heaven), before whom I expect to give account at the judgement day, that I never saw a sentence of the Book of Mormon.  I never penned a sentence in the Book of Mormon. I never knew that there was such a book in existence as the Book of Mormon, until it was presented to me by Parley P. Pratt, in the form that it now is.&#8217;</em></p>
<p><em>&#8230;</em></p>
<p><em>(2) </em><em>On his deathbed with an interview to his son Wickliffe, &#8220;I found him as ever in declaring that he himself had nothing whatever to do in writing the book, and that Joseph Smith received it from an angel.  On his dying bed he made the same declaration to a Methodist minister&#8230;. My mother has also told me that Father had nothing to do with the writing of the book, and that she positively knew that he had never seen it until Parley P. Pratt came to our home with it.</em></p>
<p><em>(3) </em><em>Nancy R. Ellis, Rigdon&#8217;s most anti-Mormon offspring, recalled in an 1884 interview the arrival of the missionaries to her Mentor, Ohio home when she was eight years old:  &#8220;I saw them hand him the book, and I am positive as can be that he never saw it before&#8230;. She further stated that her father in the last years of his life called his family together and told them, as sure as there was a God in heaven, he never had anything to do in getting up the book of Mormon, and never saw any such thing as a manuscript written by Solomon Spaulding.&#8221;</em></p>
<p><em>(4) </em>Former apostle William McClellin (who was excommunicated in 1838) said regarding Rigdon on page 137<em>, &#8220;He never heard of the work of Smith &amp; Cowdery, until C[owdery] and P[arley] P Pratt brought the book to him in Mentor, O[hio].  True enough, I have but little confidence in S. Rigdon, but I know he was more the tool of J. Smith than his teacher and director.  He was docile in J.S. hands to my knowledge.</em></p>
<p><strong>Conclusion</strong></p>
<p>SR page 137. <em> </em></p>
<p><em>The weight of scholarly studies since Fawn Brodie&#8217;s seminal 1945 <strong>No Man Knows My History </strong>biography of Joseph Smith has all but eliminated the Spalding theory and Rigdon&#8217;s complicity.  The earliest Book of Mormon critic, Rigdon&#8217;s former mentor Alexander Campbell, opined in 1831 that Joseph Smith profoundly affected by the Salvationist Christianity of nineteenth-century Protestant America, was, in fact, the author of the work. </em></p>
<p>NM page 455-6</p>
<p><em>Alexander Campbell, who knew Rigdon intimately, described his conversion to Mormonism with great regret in the <strong>Millennial Harbinger</strong>, attributing it to his nervous spasms and swooning and to his passionate belief in the imminent gathering of Israel.  But of the authorship of the Book of Mormon he wrote bluntly:  &#8220;It is as certainly Smith&#8217;s fabrication as Satan is the father of lies or darkness is the offspring of night.&#8221;</em></p>
<p>So, I&#8217;m sure there are people out there who believe the Book of Mormon is fiction.  However, I believe the Spaulding Theory has been thoroughly discredited by these two authors.  (I know this is a long post, but a <a href="http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/04/26/debunking-the-spaulding-manuscript-theory/">longer version is found here</a>.)  Comments?</p>
<a class="a2a_dd addtoany_share_save" href="http://www.addtoany.com/share_save?linkurl=http%3A%2F%2Fmormonmatters.org%2F2009%2F05%2F04%2Fdebunking-the-spaulding-theory%2F&amp;linkname=Debunking%20the%20Spaulding%20Theory"><img src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/plugins/add-to-any/share_save_171_16.png" width="171" height="16" alt="Share/Bookmark"/></a>]]></content:encoded>
			<wfw:commentRss>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/05/04/debunking-the-spaulding-theory/feed/</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>134</slash:comments>
		</item>
		<item>
		<title>Families Forver Naked and Not Ashamed</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/04/06/families-forver-naked-and-not-ashamed/</link>
		<comments>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/04/06/families-forver-naked-and-not-ashamed/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Apr 2009 06:01:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Anti-Mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[BYU]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Bible]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Bloggernacle]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Culture]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Happiness]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[abuse]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[adultery]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[apostasy]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[burdens]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[children]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[christ]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[christianity]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[church]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[civil disobedience]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[curiosity]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[diversity]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[education]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[environment]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[faith]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[families]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[fear]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[general]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[history]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[religion]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[righteousness]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[sexuality]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[theology]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[thought]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[women]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=4833</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[
Mormon Matters Motto is Exploring Mormon culture in a balanced way- so bare with me on this one (excuse the pun). 
Recently we have read that Utah has the highest rate of pornography per capita compared to all other states here
There has been a great deal of speculation about this on the bloggernacle. Could it [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/family5.jpg"><img class="alignnone size-medium wp-image-4863" src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/family5.jpg" alt="" width="217" height="209" /></a></p>
<p><span style="Arial;">Mormon Matters Motto is Exploring <em>Mormon</em> culture in a balanced way- so bare with me on this one (excuse the pun). </span><span id="more-4833"></span></p>
<p><span style="Arial;">Recently we have read that Utah has the highest rate of pornography per capita compared to all other states </span><a href="http://media.www.studentprintz.com/media/storage/paper974/news/2009/03/31/Opinion/The-Internet.Is.For.Porn.Or.So.Say.The.Numbers-3691242.shtml">here</a></p>
<p><span style="Arial;">There has been a great deal of speculation about this on the bloggernacle. Could it be that Mormons have this penned up curiosity busting to get out (excuse the pun again). The internet has made pornography just a click away, not like in the days when you had to ask a grocery clerk to pull a magazine out from underneath the counter. </span></p>
<p><span style="Arial;">I sometimes wonder with all the emphasis on staying away from drugs, alcohol, pornography if it is causing a worse problem by bringing it to the fore front constantly to members minds.<br />
</span></p>
<p><a href="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/beer1.jpg"><img class="alignnone size-medium wp-image-4836" src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/beer1-300x116.jpg" alt="" width="300" height="116" /></a></p>
<p><span style="Arial;">For example don’t think of Christi Brinkley in a red dress, don’t think about hot percolated coffee, or an ice-cold beer. Could it be the more we constantly emphasize something the more good people who have been living a life of restricted behaviour all their lives start to feel they can’t do that forever without blowing up, then they cave in or take it underground?</span></p>
<p><a href="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/innoculation1.jpg"><img class="alignnone size-medium wp-image-4851" src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/innoculation1-284x300.jpg" alt="" width="170" height="180" /></a></p>
<p><span style="#000000;"><span style="Arial;">Another view is of inoculation especially when it comes to nakedness or nudity. Christian nudist views are “Sexual decadence such as pornography and <a title="Pedophilia" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedophilia"><span style="#000000;">pedophilia</span></a> (paedophilia) is the direct result of a lack of exposure to nudity in childhood (particularly of the same approximate age). This is most likely to occur when combined with other factors such as extreme parental attitudes (e.g. body shame) and social isolation. They believe that those that are raised their entire lives within Christian naturism should not have any temptation<a title="Temptation" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temptation"></a> to engage in such behaviour “such as pornography.</span></span></p>
<p><span style="#000000;"><span style="Arial;">Their experience and testimony is that complete nakedness does not incite individuals to lustful thoughts, unlike for example, a revealing skimpy top that exposes a good deal of a woman&#8217;s cleavage or a very short mini-skirt. When naked, all body parts are seen as equal and non-sexualised. When clothed, the focus is on the private parts that are partly revealed and thus objectified and sexualised</span></span></p>
<p><a href="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/lds-skinny-dipper1.jpg"><img class="alignnone size-medium wp-image-4840" src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/lds-skinny-dipper1-300x101.jpg" alt="" width="300" height="101" /></a></p>
<p><span style="#000000;"><strong><span style="Arial;">Everything you wanted to ask LDS Naturists but were afraid to ask? </span></strong></span></p>
<p style="-18pt;"><span style="Arial;">Are there really Mormon Nudists?</span><span style="Arial;"> </span></p>
<p style="-18pt;"><span style="Arial;">How many active nudists are also active Mormons?</span><span style="Arial;"> </span></p>
<p style="-18pt;"><span style="Arial;">Where do you find other LDS members that have an interest in naturism?</span><span style="Arial;"> </span></p>
<p style="-18pt;"><span style="Arial;">Are there LDS naturist groups, clubs or organized activities that we can participate in?</span><span style="Arial;"> </span></p>
<p style="-18pt;"><span style="Arial;">How can you be a nudist and respect your Temple garments at the same time?</span><span style="Arial;"> </span></p>
<p style="-18pt;"><span style="Arial;">I know there are no scriptures or specific doctrine against it, but public nudity is just plain wrong &#8211; isn&#8217;t it?</span><span style="Arial;"> </span></p>
<p style="-18pt;"><span style="Arial;">Isn&#8217;t public nudity illegal?</span><span style="Arial;"> </span></p>
<p style="-18pt;"><span style="Arial;">Why get together with other LDS members?</span><span style="Arial;"> </span></p>
<p style="-18pt;"><span style="Arial;">Are Christian Naturists an anomalous group &#8211; acting ignorantly or in open defiance to their own doctrine against nudity?</span><span style="Arial;"> </span></p>
<p style="-18pt;"><span style="Arial;">Does &#8220;Body-Acceptance&#8221; place the flesh above the Spirit?</span><span style="Arial;"> </span></p>
<p style="-18pt;"><span style="Arial;">The church has given very clear council on modesty of dress &#8211; wouldn&#8217;t nudism be in conflict with that admonition?</span><span style="Arial;"> </span></p>
<p style="-18pt;"><span style="Arial;">Doesn&#8217;t being naked in close-company provide an excessive opportunity for temptation?</span></p>
<p style="18pt;"><span style="Arial;">Click</span><a href="http://www.ldssdc.info/_GENERAL/L-LDS-Naturism-FAQ.html"> here</a><span style="Arial;"> for the rest of the questions and answers<br />
</span></p>
<p><span style="Arial;">A Utah Valley, Utah man writes about his first naturist experience&#8230;</span><a href="http://www.ldssdc.info/_FIRST-TIME/LS-FIRST-TIME.html">here</a>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">LDS Skinny Dipper Home Page <a href="http://www.ldssdc.info/">here</a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Please leave a <em>brief</em> reply (sorry couldn&#8217;t help it)</p>
<a class="a2a_dd addtoany_share_save" href="http://www.addtoany.com/share_save?linkurl=http%3A%2F%2Fmormonmatters.org%2F2009%2F04%2F06%2Ffamilies-forver-naked-and-not-ashamed%2F&amp;linkname=Families%20Forver%20Naked%20and%20Not%20Ashamed"><img src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/plugins/add-to-any/share_save_171_16.png" width="171" height="16" alt="Share/Bookmark"/></a>]]></content:encoded>
			<wfw:commentRss>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/04/06/families-forver-naked-and-not-ashamed/feed/</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>306</slash:comments>
		</item>
		<item>
		<title>The Untold Story of Black Mormons by Guest</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/04/02/the-untold-story-of-black-mormons-by-guest/</link>
		<comments>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/04/02/the-untold-story-of-black-mormons-by-guest/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Apr 2009 07:06:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Anti-Mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[BYU]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Bible]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Bloggernacle]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Charity]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Culture]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Discrimination]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Folklore]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[General Authorities]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[LDS]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Logic]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Priesthood]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[apologetics]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[baptism]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[blacks]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[book of mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[books]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[burdens]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[christianity]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[church]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[cinema]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[curiosity]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[diversity]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[doubt]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[education]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[evangelicals]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[faith]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[families]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[fear]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[history]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[joseph]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[liberal]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[obedience]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[prayer]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[prophets]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[questioning]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[race]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[racism]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[religion]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[resolutions]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[restoration]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[righteousness]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[scripture]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[tesimony]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[theology]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=4704</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[When I served a mission in eastern Canada in the early 90s, there were many things I was grateful for (warm boots, wool suits, fairly normal food). But above all, I was grateful that I was sent to a region with very few black people, as I was not looking forward to having to defend [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p style="center;">When I served a mission in eastern Canada in the early 90s, there were many things I was grateful for (warm boots, wool suits, fairly normal food). But above all, I was grateful that I was sent to a region with very few black people, as I was not looking forward to having to defend something in the Church’s past that had deeply troubled even a relatively immature teenager with a limited knowledge of Church history and doctrine.<br />
<span id="more-4704"></span><br />
<img class="size-medium wp-image-4707  alignright" src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/abel.png" alt="" width="116" height="172" />By that point, the ban on male black members having the priesthood had been lifted for more than a dozen years. Yet, it still bothered me. And it seemed far from a settled issue. Plenty of influential writings from top Church leaders could be found in any ward house library that linked all black people back to Cain and postulated that they were “less valiant” in the pre-existence – hence, no priesthood. I never believed this, and would have had a very difficult time trying to teach this nonsense with a straight face. Luckily, I never had to.</p>
<p>I share that background to explain why – at Sunstone West this past weekend – I took such a keen interest in a screening of the film “Nobody Knows: The Untold Story of Black Mormons.” Produced by Margaret Blair Young and Darius Gray, this movie goes through the history of black people in the Church and the evolution of the priesthood ban, which is largely &#8220;credited&#8221; to Brigham Young. Apparently, he evolved (or de-volved) in his views, as the movie had some interesting early quotes from him that were far more kind and tolerant towards blacks than some of his later whoppers. The historical context painted by the film shows an influx of Mormon converts from the southern states who brought their slaves to Utah. Henceforth, Young made the decision to make Utah into a slave-friendly territory. Another bit of historical context that I don’t remember being mentioned in the film is that the Democratic Party (then pro-slavery) was also more tolerant of plural marriage, which was likely another factor in the decision.</p>
<p>Fascinating as the history was, the movie was far more touching for me on a personal level. I was utterly floored by the powerful testimonies shared by the many black LDS members interviewed on camera. Many of these folks joined the Church while the ban still existed. One African-American sister shared the heartbreaking observation that the first time she was ever called a “nigger” was in the Salt Lake temple. Yet, she was far from angry. Like many others of all races, her life had been touched in a positive way by the Gospel. That many of these folks retained a love and loyalty to an organization that had rejected them for so long was amazing. The Church apparently did not sponsor this project, but it should buy every copy that it can and send it out to all four corners of the Earth. Seriously, who better to share the hopeful message of the Gospel than a group of people who consistently getting the short end of the stick.</p>
<p>Another interesting tidbit from the film was a story about Dr. Cecil “Chip” Murray, retired pastor of the First AME Church of Los Angeles (which was founded by a former slave of Mormon pioneers). Murray shares a story on camera that he was once invited to meet with then-President Hinckley at the Church Office Building. At that meeting, he says Hinckley apologized to him for the Church&#8217;s participation in the slavery issue and for its part in perpetuating prejudice against black people. How broad he meant that is arguable, but it certainly seems a long way from just three decades ago.</p>
<p>Ms. Young was there and hosted a lively discussion afterwards. She is working on getting the film distributed. Apparently, Howard University has agreed to show it on its PBS station. Hopefully, BYU does the same. Anyone interested should start bugging their local PBS station. And maybe some e-mails to Netflix to spark their interest wouldn’t hurt, either.</p>
<p>Basically, two thumbs up here. Despite the lousy economy, I would heartily recommend dipping into your wallet for $25 to buy the DVD (it can be found at</p>
<p><a href="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/nobody-knows1.jpg"><img class="alignnone size-medium wp-image-4714" src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/nobody-knows1.jpg" alt="" width="215" height="215" /></a></p>
<p><!-- m --><a class="postlink" rel="nofollow" href="http://derefer.me/?http://www.untoldstoryofblackmormons.com">http://www.untoldstoryofblackmormons.com</a></p>
<p><!-- m -->) And no, I’m not getting a cut. Thanks for listening.</p>
<a class="a2a_dd addtoany_share_save" href="http://www.addtoany.com/share_save?linkurl=http%3A%2F%2Fmormonmatters.org%2F2009%2F04%2F02%2Fthe-untold-story-of-black-mormons-by-guest%2F&amp;linkname=The%20Untold%20Story%20of%20Black%20Mormons%20by%20Guest"><img src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/plugins/add-to-any/share_save_171_16.png" width="171" height="16" alt="Share/Bookmark"/></a>]]></content:encoded>
			<wfw:commentRss>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/04/02/the-untold-story-of-black-mormons-by-guest/feed/</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>33</slash:comments>
		</item>
		<item>
		<title>The Problem with Whistleblowers</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/03/30/the-problem-with-whistleblowers/</link>
		<comments>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/03/30/the-problem-with-whistleblowers/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Mar 2009 08:01:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Hawkgrrrl</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Anti-Mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Bloggernacle]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Culture]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Discrimination]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[General Authorities]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[General Conference]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[LDS]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Leaders]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Mormons]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[abuse]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[burdens]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[catholicism]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[christianity]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[church]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[curiosity]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[diversity]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[doubt]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[excommunication]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[faith]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[feminism]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[love]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[meekness]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[missionary]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[obedience]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[questioning]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[religion]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[thought]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[complaint]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[shoot the messenger]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=4614</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[A whistleblower is someone internal to an organization who alleges misconduct.  So, what if the organization is the church?  Does the church handle whistleblowers effectively or not?  If so, how?  If not, why not?  
In corporate America, misconduct is often characterized as a violation of a law, rule, regulation and/or a direct threat to public [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A whistleblower is someone internal to an organization who alleges misconduct.  So, what if the organization is the church?  Does the church handle whistleblowers effectively or not?  If so, how?  If not, why not?  <span id="more-4614"></span></p>
<p><img class="alignright" src="http://www.ticklethewire.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/whisteblower-photo1.jpg" alt="http://www.ticklethewire.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/whisteblower-photo1.jpg" width="189" height="125" />In corporate America, misconduct is often characterized as a violation of a law, rule, regulation and/or a direct threat to public interest, such as fraud, health/safety violations, and corruption.  Whistle-blower protection is a serious concern as others inside an organization tend to &#8220;shoot the messenger&#8221; when it comes to whistle-blowers.  Major corporations are wise to provide options and multiple complaint mechanisms to handle internal complaints.  I work for one such organization.  There are many vehicles to handle internal complaints:  employee surveys, human resources groups (several different kinds), an ombuds office, online employee discussion forums that allow anonymous participation, and a very large compliance and legal department to proactively police regulatory issues.</p>
<p>In my experience, the vast majority of what gets reported as &#8220;misconduct&#8221; is really something else, such as:</p>
<ul>
<li>a complainant with hurt feelings</li>
<li>the result of poor relationship or communication skills (either on the part of the complainant or a direct leader or some other third party); in some cases, this alleged misconduct is actual misconduct, but not always.</li>
<li>a misunderstanding of what the laws and regulations are or what the supposed &#8220;misconduct&#8221; activity entailed</li>
<li>an act of vengeance (e.g. the complainant hopes to exact revenge on another employee or leader using the complaint vehicle as a weapon)</li>
</ul>
<p><img class="alignright" src="http://www.allhatnocattle.net/shoot-messenger.jpg" alt="http://www.allhatnocattle.net/shoot-messenger.jpg" width="210" height="157" />That is not always the case, of course, which is why it&#8217;s worth it to sift through hundreds of complaints to find the one that is a real issue for the company and that requires intervention.  To the complainant, the complaint is very serious and needs to be resolved to their satisfaction.  In reality, it&#8217;s nearly impossible to separate the complaint from the complainant.  The more neutral the complainant, the more valuable the complaint.  Some of these factors make the complainant seem less neutral:</p>
<ul>
<li>The complainant wants something of personal benefit as a result of the complaint.</li>
<li>The complainant is vengeful toward individuals they accuse of wrong-doing or there is a known personality conflict between them and an accused party.</li>
<li>The complainant has a history of making complaints.</li>
<li>If they no longer have any ties to the organization (an ex-insider), that complaint might also seem suspect to insiders, regardless of how neutrally the complaint is phrased.</li>
</ul>
<p>So, when it comes to complaints within the organization of the church, how do we do?  Here are some areas where I think we do well:</p>
<ul>
<li>Complaints are handled at the lowest level possible.</li>
<li>Complaints are generally handled in confidence (obviously, there are individuals who have blown this, but IME, local leaders tend to take confidentiality to extremes).</li>
<li>There is a focus on accountability (LDS scriptures actually instruct members to handle personal conflicts between them and the other party).</li>
<li>Actual misconduct complaints (e.g. fraud, legal, etc.) are generally taken very seriously and actions to remedy are easy to handle swiftly due to the lay clergy aspect of the church.</li>
</ul>
<p><img class="alignright" src="http://blog.sellsiusrealestate.com/wp-content/complaint1.jpg" alt="http://blog.sellsiusrealestate.com/wp-content/complaint1.jpg" width="144" height="200" />Where do we sometimes fall down?</p>
<ul>
<li>Females alleging sexual misconduct may find the process extra difficult due to the lack of female representation in church courts.  A female who already feels violated may have a difficult time in addressing an all-male leadership with painful details that are necessary to assess the situation.</li>
<li>There is very little effective access to top levels of the organization.  This is really only an issue if the complaint is about local leadership or if the complaint has organizational implications.  We should bear in mind that this is how the Catholic church got into trouble over the priest molestation scandals&#8211;by pushing too much to local levels to handle and not realizing they had an institutional problem before it was too late.</li>
<li>Organizations with deep pockets are often the target of spurious law suits which makes identifying the serious cases more difficult.</li>
<li>Disclosures about financial and legal activities are either vague or considered confidential.  But again, this is often the case in a corporation as well.  While financial disclosure of a publicly-traded company is more open, airing dirty laundry over minor litigations is not.</li>
<li>Local leaders may lack the skill to assess and deal with issues and may hold complainants at bay to cover their ineptitude.  They may use unrighteous dominion to punish the complainant.  And there is some open question about the church&#8217;s culpability when an untrained lay clergy makes a local error in judgment.</li>
<li>Individuals feel guilty for complaining in a religious structure.  This is true of all churches, but added to it is our lay clergy.  It&#8217;s harder to complain about an unpaid volunteer.</li>
<li>Whistle-blowers may not be taken seriously if they are not considered neutral or are frequent complainers.  But this is true in all human organizations, and is the basis for the age-old story The Boy Who Cried Wolf.  There&#8217;s <em>sometimes </em>a reason the messenger gets shot.</li>
</ul>
<p>So, what do you think?  Do we do a good job dealing with complaints or not?  Do we do a better job with more severe complaints or minor issues?  What should we do to improve how we handle complaints or is the system working just fine?  Discuss.</p>
<a class="a2a_dd addtoany_share_save" href="http://www.addtoany.com/share_save?linkurl=http%3A%2F%2Fmormonmatters.org%2F2009%2F03%2F30%2Fthe-problem-with-whistleblowers%2F&amp;linkname=The%20Problem%20with%20Whistleblowers"><img src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/plugins/add-to-any/share_save_171_16.png" width="171" height="16" alt="Share/Bookmark"/></a>]]></content:encoded>
			<wfw:commentRss>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/03/30/the-problem-with-whistleblowers/feed/</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>22</slash:comments>
		</item>
		<item>
		<title>When Evil-Speaking Creeps Unawares Among Us</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/03/16/when-evil-speaking-creeps-unawares-among-us/</link>
		<comments>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/03/16/when-evil-speaking-creeps-unawares-among-us/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Mar 2009 06:02:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Ray</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Anti-Mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Bible]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Bloggernacle]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[apologetics]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[apostasy]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[diversity]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[grace]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[inter-faith]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[politics]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[questioning]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[religion]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[righteousness]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=4563</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Last week, there was some heated debate here about More Open Mormon History.  I don&#8217;t want to open that exact same discussion all over again, but I do want to look a little more closely at the motivation behind our conversations here.
I find Jude 1:4, 8-10 to be absolutely fascinating.  I have eliminated the skipped [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Last week, there was some heated debate here about <a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2009/03/06/more-open-mormon-history/">More Open Mormon History</a>.  <strong>I don&#8217;t want to open that exact same discussion all over again</strong>, but I do want to look a little more closely at the motivation behind our conversations here.</p>
<p>I find <a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/jude/1/4,8-10#4">Jude 1:4, 8-10</a> to be absolutely fascinating.  I have eliminated the skipped verses (5-7) and focused directly on the underlying attitude addressed in the overall passage and one specific application of it &#8211; and its implication for each and every one of us as we converse without being able to see each other.  <span id="more-4563"></span>Verse 4 reads:</p>
<blockquote><p>There are certain men crept in unawares, . . . turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness . . .</p></blockquote>
<div class="hilite">
<div class="verse">The underlying issue in verse 4 that relates, I believe, directly to the attitude articulated in verses 8-10 is &#8220;turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness&#8221;.  Lasciviousness means <strong>&#8220;inclined to lustfulness; wanton; lewd</strong>&#8221; &#8211; but I am going to take a slight liberty with the core definition, based on what follows in verses 8-10.  I am not going to focus on the sexual implications of this verse and the overall passage, <strong>and I ask that the comments also refrain from that potential discussion</strong>, and instead focus on the non-sexual corollary identified in verses 8-10 &#8211; since those verses begin with the term &#8220;likewise&#8221; (&#8220;in like manner; in the same way; similarly&#8221;).  This introduction links what follows back to the same root cause discussed previously &#8211; lasciviousness, but what follows adds an intriguing twist.</div>
<div class="verse"></div>
<div class="verse">I see &#8220;turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness&#8221; as having two possible meanings.  First, it can apply to those who use the concept of God&#8217;s grace to deny the need for commandments and external rules &#8211; who say what they do doesn&#8217;t matter, since grace makes their lasciviousness acceptable, meaning they are free to do whatever they want to do.  On the other hand, there are those who become arrogant in their own righteousness &#8211; who believe that they are &#8220;entitled&#8221; to grace because they deserve it, meaning they also are free to do whatever they want to do.  <strong>It is that belief that they understand completely and are not constrained by any collective or communal rules, I believe, that is addressed in verses 8-10.</strong></div>
<div class="verse">Verses 8-10 take the initial definition of being &#8220;lustful&#8221; and focus it on how people interact with &#8220;dignities&#8221; and in discussions where &#8220;they know not&#8221;.  When viewed in light of <a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/matt/7/1#1">Matthew 7:1</a> (&#8220;Judge not, that ye be not judged.&#8221;) and the overall message of Matthew 5 (summarized in <a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/matt/5/48b">verse 48, footnote b</a>), I believe a reasonable addition to the second condition would be &#8220;which they know not <strong>fully</strong>&#8221; &#8211; and I think that addition is important in our own conversations.  Regardless, the juxtaposition of the word &#8220;lasciviousness&#8221; with &#8220;evil speak(ing)&#8221; is fascinating- and I want to explore it a bit.  The exact words are:</div>
<div class="verse">
<blockquote><p>8  Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, <strong>despise dominion</strong>, and <strong>speak evil of dignities</strong>.</p>
<p>9  Yet <sup>a</sup><a title="TG Adam." type="B" href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/jude/1/9a">Michael</a> the <sup>b</sup><a title="TG Angels." type="B" href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/jude/1/9b">archangel</a>, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of <sup>c</sup><a title="TG Translated Beings." type="B" href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/jude/1/9c">Moses</a>, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.</p>
<div class="verse">10 But these speak evil of those things <strong>which they know not</strong>: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div class="verse">Returning to the definition of &#8220;lasciviousness&#8221; as &#8220;lustfulness&#8221;, the definition of &#8220;lust&#8221; I found that best fits this context is <strong>&#8220;a passionate or overmastering desire or craving&#8221;</strong>.  This means that Jude was speaking of people who give in to a passion or an overwhelming desire when they speak of dignities and things which they know not (fully) &#8211; but the context makes it clear that what Jude condemns is the &#8220;evil&#8221; application of this inclination.  Iow, while a passionate or overwhelming desire is laudable if it is charitable in nature (meaning non-judgmental), the opposite is true when it is condemnatory or attacking in nature.  In that case, the desire is labeled lascivious (&#8220;lustful&#8221;) and, therefore, &#8220;evil&#8221;.</div>
<div class="verse"><strong>How does that apply to our communications here and elsewhere?</strong></div>
<div class="verse">I think verse 9 is one of the most interesting verses in our entire Standard Works.  Even if taken allegorically, if there ever was a figure below God who we think &#8220;should&#8221; be able to rail against Lucifer, it would be Michael, the archangel.  I mean, come on, this is Michael, the archangel!  However, verse 9 says Michael <strong>didn&#8217;t DARE do so</strong> &#8211; leaving God to do the rebuking.  I read this as saying that, even in a situation where it seems obvious that &#8220;speaking evil&#8221; of someone might be warranted, Michael refrained and left that up to God.</div>
<div class="verse">I have read a lot of rebuking and reviling in the Bloggernacle &#8211; not nearly as much as on general comment threads outside the Bloggernacle, but a lot nonetheless.  This occurs in our communications with each other, but it occurs even more often when &#8220;dignities&#8221; (&#8220;persons of high rank or title&#8221; and/or &#8220;ceremonial symbols and observances&#8221;) are being discussed.  Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Bruce R. McConkie, Bill Clinton, George Bush, Barack Obama, temple ordinances, gay marriage, prophets, etc. all bring out vitriol and ire faster than just about anything around here.</div>
<div class="verse">My point is not the stereotypical one that many might be assuming right now.  <strong>This post is not focused exclusively, or even primarily, on anti-Mormon diatribes. </strong> Those often fit the general tone of the verses I&#8217;ve quoted in Jude, but so do many of the responses to those comments and even others that stand on their own.  <strong>Often, &#8220;faithful&#8221; comments also speak evil of things that are &#8220;dignities&#8221; and &#8220;observances&#8221; of non- or ex-Mormons &#8211; even though those observances are not fundamentally ceremonial in nature.</strong> Also, in a very real sense, we all are God&#8217;s children, and I believe &#8220;speaking evil&#8221; of each other can be compared to speaking evil of dignities without stretching the definition far enough to make a difference.  (&#8220;Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.&#8221; &#8211; <a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/james/3/9#9">James 3:9</a>)</div>
<div class="verse">For example, any comment that equates someone&#8217;s struggle to understand or accept a concept with &#8220;unrighteousness&#8221; has the potential to be &#8220;lascivious&#8221; &#8211; if it assumes things unknown (&#8220;which they know not&#8221;) and is mocking of someone&#8217;s deeply held beliefs (&#8220;dignities&#8221;) &#8211; every bit as much as a blatant condemnation of Joseph Smith or Brigham Young is when making a blanket statement that does not take into account the full complexity of those men.  The following key is subtle, but incredibly important, imo.</div>
<div class="verse">This type of lasciviousness carries a connotation of domination &#8211; of needing to be right &#8211; of needing to win &#8211; <strong>of caring more about winning than about understanding and being gracious</strong>.  Lustfulness is an attitude, not merely an action &#8211; and such arrogance cuts across religious and political lines.  It is something all of us need to understand and avoid, and it is enticing and natural and easy to miss as it creeps &#8220;unawares&#8221; into our interactions with each other &#8211; on a blog that is supposed to be about respectful disagreement, not lustful competition.</div>
<div class="verse">My question, then, is: <em><strong></strong></em></div>
<div class="verse"><em><strong>How do we communicate openly and honestly without resorting to lasciviousness and the tendency to evil speak &#8211; especially of dignities and things which we know not (fully)?</strong> </em></div>
</div>
<a class="a2a_dd addtoany_share_save" href="http://www.addtoany.com/share_save?linkurl=http%3A%2F%2Fmormonmatters.org%2F2009%2F03%2F16%2Fwhen-evil-speaking-creeps-unawares-among-us%2F&amp;linkname=When%20Evil-Speaking%20Creeps%20Unawares%20Among%20Us"><img src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/plugins/add-to-any/share_save_171_16.png" width="171" height="16" alt="Share/Bookmark"/></a>]]></content:encoded>
			<wfw:commentRss>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/03/16/when-evil-speaking-creeps-unawares-among-us/feed/</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>11</slash:comments>
		</item>
		<item>
		<title>Why Mormon Doctrine Is NOT Mormon Doctrine</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/03/15/why-mormon-doctrine-is-not-mormon-doctrine/</link>
		<comments>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/03/15/why-mormon-doctrine-is-not-mormon-doctrine/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Mar 2009 08:55:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>guest</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Anti-Mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Asides]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Culture]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[General Authorities]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[LDS]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Leaders]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Mormons]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[books]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[church]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[curiosity]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[orthodox]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[questioning]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[religion]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[scripture]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[theology]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[thought]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Bruce R. McConkie]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[canon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Mormon Doctrine]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=4515</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Many people both within the Church and outside the Church think that Bruce R. McConkie&#8217;s book, Mormon Doctrine, is the official declaration of LDS church doctrine.  Today&#8217;s guest post is by Paradise Destroyed.
Here are several reasons why Mormon Doctrine is NOT Mormon Doctrine:


Mormon Doctrine was written when Brother McConkie was a member of the First [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p class="post-title entry-title">Many people both within the Church and outside the Church think that Bruce R. McConkie&#8217;s book, Mormon Doctrine, is the official declaration of LDS church doctrine.  Today&#8217;s guest post is by Paradise Destroyed.<span id="more-4515"></span></p>
<p class="post-title entry-title"><img id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5305801107571036962" class="alignright" style="display: block; margin: 0px auto 10px; cursor: pointer; text-align: center;" src="http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_83N8zGB9Lh8/SaH9_vmlUyI/AAAAAAAAAAw/wXAT5BYeM3U/s320/Mormon+Doctrine.jpg" border="0" alt="" width="118" height="181" />Here are several reasons why Mormon Doctrine is NOT Mormon Doctrine:</p>
<div class="post-body entry-content">
<ol style="font-family: verdana; text-align: justify;">
<li><span style="font-size: 100%;">Mormon Doctrine was written when Brother McConkie was a member of the First Counsel of the Seventy (1946-1972).</span></li>
<li>The Prophet is the only individual who could put forth official doctrine of the Church (D&amp;C 28:1) which makes Bruce R. McConkie&#8217;s book in violation of <a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/28/1-3#1"><span style="color: #336699;">D&amp;C 28:1-3</span></a>.</li>
<li>He did not submit it to the Church&#8217;s Reading Council before publishing it.</li>
<li>The prophet, David O. McKay, objected to the fact that the book implied it was the official representation of official Church Doctrine.</li>
<li>Two senior apostles, Mark E. Peterson and Marion G. Romney, at the request of David O. McKay, reviewed <span style="font-style: italic;">Mormon Doctrine</span> and found that the first edition had 1,067 &#8220;corrections&#8221; that needed to be made.</li>
<li>David O. McKay insisted that the book never be republished, not even in corrected form.</li>
<li>David O. McKay insisted that the book not be recognized as an authoritative source of Mormon Doctrine and that Bruce R. McConkie take full responsibility for his book.</li>
<li><span style="font-size: 100%;">The book itself has the presumptuous title of <em>Mormon Doctrine</em> when the book really should have been called &#8220;<em>Doctrine according to Bruce R. McConkie</em>.&#8221; </span></li>
<li><span style="font-size: 100%;">Despite the fact that David O. McKay declared the book not be republished, </span>Bruce R. McConkie published it anyway six years later when the Prophet was in poor health.</li>
<li><span style="font-size: 100%;">If you look at subsequent editions of Mormon Doctrine, it now has the standard disclaimer that the book does not represent the official position on the doctrines of the LDS Church.</span></li>
</ol>
</div>
<p>Despite the many reasons why the book is not an official declaration of Church doctrine, it still gets cited and quoted in General Conference and Church talks, lessons and articles. Thus, while the book does not represent the official statement of Church beliefs, such actions of using it in official Church meetings by General Authorities and members gives the book undeserved legitimacy and authority.</p>
<p>It is no wonder that opponents of the LDS Church attack the Church by citing from <span style="font-size: 100%;"><em>Mormon Doctrine. </em>We deny the near canonical status of the book, yet, the book sales and use of it in Church tells the critics of the Church (and membership) otherwise.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 100%;">So, what do you think?  Does the book do more good than harm?  Do average members understand that it is not canonical?  Why was Bruce McConkie protected from the consequences of writing a speculative book with a presumptuous title when others who have written speculative Mormon books have been excommunicated?  Discuss.</span></p>
<a class="a2a_dd addtoany_share_save" href="http://www.addtoany.com/share_save?linkurl=http%3A%2F%2Fmormonmatters.org%2F2009%2F03%2F15%2Fwhy-mormon-doctrine-is-not-mormon-doctrine%2F&amp;linkname=Why%20Mormon%20Doctrine%20Is%20NOT%20Mormon%20Doctrine"><img src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/plugins/add-to-any/share_save_171_16.png" width="171" height="16" alt="Share/Bookmark"/></a>]]></content:encoded>
			<wfw:commentRss>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/03/15/why-mormon-doctrine-is-not-mormon-doctrine/feed/</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>49</slash:comments>
		</item>
		<item>
		<title>Does Tom Hanks Hate Mormons?</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/03/11/does-tom-hanks-hate-mormons/</link>
		<comments>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/03/11/does-tom-hanks-hate-mormons/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Mar 2009 18:31:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Hawkgrrrl</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Anti-Mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Asides]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Charity]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Culture]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Discrimination]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[LDS]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Mormons]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[christianity]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[church]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[cinema]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[curiosity]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[diversity]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[families]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[gay]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[homosexuality]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[inter-faith]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[liberal]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[love]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[marriage]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[media manipulation]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[movies]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[religion]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[thought]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Big Love]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[prop 8]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[SSM]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Tom Hanks]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=4508</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Tom Hanks is a beloved actor to many Mormons for his family-friendly roles and everyman quality.  Yet, his recent negative remarks (and hasty retraction) calling Mormons who supported Prop 8 &#8220;unAmerican,&#8221; and his role as executive producer on Big Love which is about to air the most sacred Mormon ritual on television begs the question:  [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tom Hanks is a beloved actor to many Mormons for his family-friendly roles and everyman quality.  Yet, his recent negative remarks (and hasty retraction) calling Mormons who supported Prop 8 &#8220;unAmerican,&#8221; and his role as executive producer on Big Love which is about to air the most sacred Mormon ritual on television begs the question:  Does Tom Hanks hate Mormons?<span id="more-4508"></span></p>
<p><img class="alignright" src="http://www.insidesocal.com/outinhollywood/,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,hanks23.jpg" alt="" width="108" height="127" />Interestingly enough, Tom Hanks was briefly identified as a Mormon (although he was not baptized) when his stepmother Winifred joined the church.  However, his father Amos was not interested in the Mormon church, and according to an unauthorized biography, Tom saw this as one reason they split up.  Tom stated later that he was no longer a Mormon, and he also believed his ex-stepmother had left Mormonism.  Tom made his way through several different religions over time as you can see <a href="http://www.ldsfilm.com/actors/TomHanks.html">here</a>.</p>
<p>Speaking of his involvement in the show Big Love, Hanks said (<em><span style="color: #0000ff;">with my parenthetical comments inserted</span></em>):</p>
<blockquote><p>The truth is this takes place in Utah (<em><span style="color: #0000ff;">the <strong>truth</strong> is that it&#8217;s a <strong>fictional</strong> show</span></em>), the truth is these people are some bizarre offshoot of the Mormon Church (<em><span style="color: #0000ff;">the <strong>truth</strong> is these are <strong>fictional</strong> characters based loosely on some bizarre offshoots; but KUDOS for the &#8220;bizarre offshoot&#8221; remark</span></em>), and the truth is a lot of Mormons gave a lot of money to the church to make Prop-8 happen (<em><span style="color: #0000ff;">why do I picture someone making air quotes when they say &#8220;happen&#8221;?</span></em>).  <strong>There are a lot of people who feel that is un-American and I am one of them</strong>.  I do not like to see any discrimination codified on any piece of paper, any of the 50 states in America, but here&#8217;s what happens now. A little bit of light can be shed and people can see who&#8217;s responsible (<em><span style="color: #0000ff;">is he now talking about the Prop 8 maps that identified donors, essentially putting targets on their backs for gay activists?</span></em>) and that can motivate the next go around of our self correcting constitution and hopefully we can move forward instead of backwards (<em><span style="color: #0000ff;">I&#8217;m not even sure this sentence went forward instead of backwards</span></em>). So lets have faith in not only the American (<em><span style="color: #0000ff;">not Mormons who are UNAmerican for voting for Prop 8</span></em>), but Californian constitutional process (<em><span style="color: #0000ff;">so, have faith in Americans, but if they vote wrong, have faith in the constitutional process to correct that</span></em>).</p></blockquote>
<p>Then, Tom did a fairly nice reversal of his statement:</p>
<blockquote><p>Last week, I labeled members of the Mormon church who supported California&#8217;s Proposition 8 as &#8220;un-American.&#8221; I believe Proposition 8 is counter to the promise of our Constitution; it is codified discrimination.  <strong>But everyone has a right to vote their conscience – nothing could be more American</strong>. To say members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints who contributed to Proposition 8 are &#8220;un-American&#8221; creates more division when the time calls for respectful disagreement.  No one should use &#8220;un- American&#8221; lightly or in haste.  I did.  I should not have. (<em><span style="color: #0000ff;">I really like the terseness and directness of the last few statements.  Apologizers, watch and learn</span></em>).</p></blockquote>
<p>Obviously, the reversal of his statements (which was doubtless prompted by those who have a financial stake in his popularity) doesn&#8217;t necessarily mean he&#8217;s ready for a group hug.  So, what are Tom Hanks&#8217; true feelings about Mormons?  Here&#8217;s a guess:</p>
<ul>
<li><strong>He&#8217;s an activist for gay rights</strong>.  Like most of Hollywood, he&#8217;s an SSM activist and considers those not ready for SSM to be discriminatory.  It&#8217;s hard to blame him for his sheltered Hollywood existence, though.  When you spend most of your time around like-minded people, you develop group-think.  I&#8217;m sure we can all relate on some level.  In summary:  his feelings are pro-SSM, not anti-Mormon.</li>
<li><strong>He&#8217;s spiritual, not religious</strong>.  He saw his ex-stepmother as flaky (looking at his own religious history I say &#8220;physician, heal thyself&#8221;) and therefore attracted to Mormonism as a phase; he probably doesn&#8217;t take it very seriously as a religion (see:  Hollywood).</li>
<li><strong>He&#8217;s an artist</strong>.  We see Hollywood as a money machine; they see themselves as creative artists, holding a mirror up to the human experience.  Tom Hanks strives to make characters (even the polygamous Hendricksons) understandable, human, accurate, and relatable.  Showing the Mormon temple ceremony is not being done as payback (although he does resent Prop 8); it&#8217;s being done for accuracy and to render Barb Hendrickson more human.  And he is just an EP, not a writer for the show (that would be Dustin Lance Black, the gay ex-Mormon who gave the impassioned speech at the Oscars).</li>
</ul>
<p>So, that&#8217;s my view.  I&#8217;m inclined to cut Hanks some slack.  Plus, I somewhat think there&#8217;s no such thing as bad press (even all that bad press out there).  Not many Mormons watch Big Love, but many do watch Tom Hanks.  I think his apology was adequate, and I don&#8217;t consider his work mean-spirited (although I hated the mullet he sported in DaVinci Code).  It&#8217;s a low bar, but high enough for me.  Discuss.</p>
<a class="a2a_dd addtoany_share_save" href="http://www.addtoany.com/share_save?linkurl=http%3A%2F%2Fmormonmatters.org%2F2009%2F03%2F11%2Fdoes-tom-hanks-hate-mormons%2F&amp;linkname=Does%20Tom%20Hanks%20Hate%20Mormons%3F"><img src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/plugins/add-to-any/share_save_171_16.png" width="171" height="16" alt="Share/Bookmark"/></a>]]></content:encoded>
			<wfw:commentRss>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/03/11/does-tom-hanks-hate-mormons/feed/</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>69</slash:comments>
		</item>
		<item>
		<title>Big Love -Big News</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/03/10/big-love-big-news/</link>
		<comments>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/03/10/big-love-big-news/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Mar 2009 18:15:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Anti-Mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Bloggernacle]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Charity]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Culture]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Discrimination]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[FLDS]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[God]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Happiness]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Jesus]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Mormons]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Priesthood]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[RLDS]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Utah]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[abuse]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[adultery]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[apologetics]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[apostasy]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[baptism]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[book of mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[burdens]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[children]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[christ]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[christianity]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[church]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[curiosity]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[diversity]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[doubt]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[education]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[faith]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[families]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[fear]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[general]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[history]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[inter-faith]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[joseph]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[marriage]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[media]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[meetings]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[movies]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[news]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[obedience]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[ordinances]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[orthodox]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[polygamy]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[prophets]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[religion]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[resignation]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[salvation]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[scripture]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[spirituality]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[television]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[temple]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[testimony]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[theology]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[thought]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[women]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=4483</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[
The only time I have seen Big Love is on a transatlantic flight back home to Salt Lake.  My initial thoughts were how amazing to have a church just like ours (almost) right in our back door and no one seems to know of it, as they keep it fairly discreet on the show.
From what [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/big-love.bmp"><img class="alignnone size-medium wp-image-4484" src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/big-love.bmp" alt="" width="241" height="200" /></a><span id="more-4483"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The only time I have seen Big Love is on a transatlantic flight back home to Salt Lake.  My initial thoughts were how amazing to have a church just like ours (almost) right in our back door and no one seems to know of it, as they keep it fairly discreet on the show.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">From what I saw these Josephites seem to be very similar (i.e. Family Prayer, FHE, Family Council, even similar programs and auxiliaries).  They even seemed to act like Mormons I grew up with.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Since there was a split of Josephites from the Brighamites, wouldn’t most of these branches have similar temple ceremonies to ours?  If so shouldn’t they be the ones who are offended, not the Brighamites?</p>
<h2>Big Love episode draws criticism from LDS Church</h2>
<p>Before the first season of the HBO series Big Love aired more than two years ago, the show&#8217;s creator and HBO assured the Church that the series wouldn&#8217;t be about Mormons.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_11874222">Here</a></p>
<h2>Big Love Series to Show Rites from LDS Temples</h2>
<p class="MsoNormal">SALT LAKE CITY (ABC 4 News) &#8211; The HBO series &#8220;Big Love&#8221; will show its version of temple rites belonging to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  The episode is scheduled to air Sunday, March 15.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="http://www.abc4.com/content/news/top%20stories/story/Big-Love-Series-to-Show-Rites-from-LDS-Temples/jLosV5DOFEGbruoG8RRbxQ.cspx?rss=20">Here</a></p>
<h2>‘Big Love&#8217;s&#8217; promise to show LDS temple rituals has many crying foul</h2>
<p class="MsoNormal">Richard Cowan, a BYU professor of church history and doctrine, said:  &#8221;It isn&#8217;t something that we want to keep away from everyone who isn&#8217;t a member of our faith, but rather something we would like to share with those who are personally and spiritually prepared to appreciate it.&#8221;</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&amp;sid=5803281">Here</a></p>
<h2>&#8216;Big Love&#8217; prompts LDS Church response and analysis</h2>
<p class="MsoNormal">Certainly church members are offended when their most sacred practices are misrepresented or presented without context or understanding.  Last week some church members began e-mail chains calling for cancellations of subscriptions to AOL, which (like HBO) is owned by Time Warner.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="http://www.mormontimes.com/around_church/general_authority/?id=6649">Here</a></p>
<p><span style="&quot;Times New Roman&quot;;">Please discuss anything and everything.<br />
</span></p>
<a class="a2a_dd addtoany_share_save" href="http://www.addtoany.com/share_save?linkurl=http%3A%2F%2Fmormonmatters.org%2F2009%2F03%2F10%2Fbig-love-big-news%2F&amp;linkname=Big%20Love%20-Big%20News"><img src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/plugins/add-to-any/share_save_171_16.png" width="171" height="16" alt="Share/Bookmark"/></a>]]></content:encoded>
			<wfw:commentRss>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/03/10/big-love-big-news/feed/</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>33</slash:comments>
		</item>
		<item>
		<title>Every exmember a missionary</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/02/27/every-exmember-a-missionary/</link>
		<comments>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/02/27/every-exmember-a-missionary/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 09:36:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Andrew S</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Anti-Mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Mormons]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[apostasy]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[missionary]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[new order mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[race]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[religion]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[every member a missionary]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[ex-Mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[former mormon]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=4313</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[And now, dear friends at Mormon Matters, is your regular report from the Dark Side of the Moon.
I was reading a comment in another article here, and what Doug had said intrigued me:
This board started out as a place for middle-way thinking people to discuss problematic issues with doctrine and history. It would now appear [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And now, dear friends at Mormon Matters, is your regular report from the Dark Side of the Moon.</p>
<p>I was reading a <a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2009/02/08/why-faith-needs-doubt/#comment-58970">comment in another article here</a>, and what Doug had said intrigued me:</p>
<blockquote><p>This board started out as a place for middle-way thinking people to discuss problematic issues with doctrine and history. It would now appear that anyone with an opinion different then the “current LDS view” is attacked as I and many others have been. On several other discussion boards, mormon matters is considered a pro LDS blog. Gentlemen, just say the word and I’ll find another place to try and help those who don’t see the church the way you do understand that they’re not alone. I guess it’s true; there is in reality no room for a NOM in the church.</p></blockquote>
<p>I don&#8217;t know if I have <em>ever</em> thought of MM as anything other than a pro-LDS blog. But I *have* always recognized that this site is of a different caliber, of course, than M* or T&amp;S and others. So I guess, I&#8217;ll try to shake things up and offer a different perspective and hope that I don&#8217;t get chased out on a rail.<span id="more-4313"></span>The other day, out of all people, *I* had a missionary experience. I&#8217;ve written about it <a href="http://irresistibledisgrace.wordpress.com/2009/02/19/so-what-are-you-im-mormon/">on my blog</a>, but here&#8217;s the executive summary: over the course of conversation, I revealed to someone that I was raised Mormon. Over more conversation, I revealed further that I&#8217;m not a believing Mormon (and with that, I&#8217;ve probably lost half my MM readership right there, if Doug&#8217;s comment is to be believed) and so they shouldn&#8217;t expect me to have the most faith-promoting answers.</p>
<p>However, despite that, I still was the go-to guy for tough Mormon questions. Questions such as, &#8220;Isn&#8217;t this the church where blacks can&#8217;t go to heaven?&#8221; (these guys have learned well from the Huckabee school of interrogation) or &#8220;Are women banned from celestial glory because they do not have the priesthood?&#8221;</p>
<p>It was at this time, of course, that I realized that I was, in ways, a representative of the church (despite my pointing out that I&#8217;m <em>not</em> the faithful go-to guy). And so I realized that I had to take a delicate path.</p>
<p>I guess that for faithful members, there are standard, correlated answers for these questions. So it&#8217;s easy enough to answer that the policy <em>was</em> that blacks could not get the priesthood, but <em>now</em> with new revelation, blacks do have the priesthood and things are resolved. It&#8217;s then easy enough to segue that into an explanation of different levels of heaven (exaltation? how&#8217;s that different from salvation? Celestial Kingdom? Priesthood ordinances?) And then <em>jete</em> to the restoration of the gospel and isn&#8217;t that nice and won&#8217;t you come? I bet within a week you can get the missionaries a referral if you&#8217;re good enough.</p>
<p>But&#8230;if you haven&#8217;t realized it&#8230;for ex-Mormons, former Mormons (who I guess form the &#8220;dark side&#8221; in many members&#8217; minds), liberal Mormons, New Order Mormons, and anyone similar, the standard correlated answers don&#8217;t work. They make us feel uneasy or deceptive. And that&#8217;s in part how we get to our position &#8212; by distancing ourselves from the church, we detach from stinging correlated answers. So, we can relate the Joseph Smith story, but we don&#8217;t necessarily feel obligated to believe the correlated telling. Or do the same for whatever issue.</p>
<p>Now, I will say that there are some who will go far with this &#8212; there are those who will leave the church bitter, angry, and <em>anti</em>. But I would suppose that most ex- and former Mormons don&#8217;t <em>want</em> to appear like antis. Anti-Mormons sometimes embarrass <em>me</em>. I&#8217;d like to think that people can look at reasonably truthful, accurate information, and then decide based on that (there&#8217;s enough gray to allow people to go either way without bringing up inaccuracies, falsehoods, sickly sweet faith-promoting stories and sickly venomous faith-destroying ones.)</p>
<p>But I am still put in this strange position&#8230;where I become the liaison for the church and for the LDS doctrine. And then I realize that because I am viewed as a somewhat reputable source despite my warnings otherwise, even as an exmember, I still am a missionary of sorts.</p>
<p>This post sounds kinda spastic because this is the third time I&#8217;ve written about it (the second time was to get perspectives from the other <a href="http://latterdaymainstreet.com/?p=485">Dark Side of the Mooners)</a> &#8230;but I wanted to ask people from a faithful perspective&#8230;what would you expect from ex- and former Mormons? What would you hope that they would say in response to questions about the gospel? Would it impress you to see an ex-Mormon dispelling blatant untruths from anti-Mormons? Would that all be dashed to bits if they followed up their trouncing of inaccuracies with unflattering church history or doctrine?</p>
<a class="a2a_dd addtoany_share_save" href="http://www.addtoany.com/share_save?linkurl=http%3A%2F%2Fmormonmatters.org%2F2009%2F02%2F27%2Fevery-exmember-a-missionary%2F&amp;linkname=Every%20exmember%20a%20missionary"><img src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/plugins/add-to-any/share_save_171_16.png" width="171" height="16" alt="Share/Bookmark"/></a>]]></content:encoded>
			<wfw:commentRss>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/02/27/every-exmember-a-missionary/feed/</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>77</slash:comments>
		</item>
		<item>
		<title>What is Truth?</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/02/13/what-is-truth/</link>
		<comments>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/02/13/what-is-truth/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Feb 2009 19:25:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>guest</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Anti-Mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Asides]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Culture]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[LDS]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Mormons]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[apologetics]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[apostasy]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[christianity]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[church]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[curiosity]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[faith]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[obedience]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[prayer]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[questioning]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[religion]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[righteousness]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[salvation]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[spiritual progression]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[spirituality]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[testimony]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[theology]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[thought]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[direction]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[epistomology]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[knowledge]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[true north]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[truth]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=4228</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[When it comes to religion &#8211; can everyone know truth?  Can anyone?  Today&#8217;s guest post is from Justin Perry. it seems like most people fall in between two extremes when it comes to the ability of human beings to know about God:


On one end (and according to most TBMs), anyone, at least in theory, can know the [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When it comes to religion &#8211; can everyone know truth?  Can anyone?  Today&#8217;s guest post is from Justin Perry.<span id="more-4228"></span> it seems like most people fall in between two extremes when it comes to the ability of human beings to know about God:</p>
<ul>
<li>
<div class="content">On one end (and according to most TBMs), <span style="font-style: italic;">anyone</span>, at least in theory, can know the Church is true as long as they sincerely ask God, and as long as they aren&#8217;t too sinful.</div>
</li>
<li>
<div class="content">On the other end, there are people who firmly believe that no one can know anything for certain about God. As an LDS missionary, I met a woman who would counter every testimony by saying, &#8220;you don&#8217;t really know for sure, you only <span style="font-style: italic;">think</span> you know.&#8221; Yeah, this was pretty awkward, especially in church. Also, it was rather odd how she alone could be certain that no one else was certain.</div>
</li>
</ul>
<p class="content">In addition to addressing the question epistemologically, it&#8217;s also important to take into account the historical usage of the term &#8220;true&#8221;.</p>
<p><img class="alignright" src="http://www.travelooce.com/pics/sunset_sailing.jpg" alt="" width="176" height="112" />In the 19th century, when sailors would get their bearings on ships, they would say that their heading was &#8220;true&#8221; if it would lead them to their destination. If they found that their heading was not leading them to their destination, their heading was considered &#8220;false&#8221;.</p>
<p>In 19th century America, when people would debate about religion, they would often argue if certain beliefs were &#8220;true&#8221; (or if they were useful for steering your life so that you would end up in heaven). If a belief was &#8220;false&#8221;, it would not help you get into heaven and by default, it would send you to Hell.</p>
<p><img class="alignright" src="http://www.takahashiamerica.com/catalog/images/Early-1800-sextant.jpg" alt="" width="171" height="150" />A number of Protestant (mostly Evangelical and Fundamentalist) denominations still use the &#8220;true&#8221;/&#8221;false&#8221; classification system for religious beliefs, arguing that their doctrines were &#8220;true&#8221;, and that anyone who said anything different was teaching false doctrine.</p>
<p>From this perspective it still doesn&#8217;t make a lot of sense to say &#8220;the church is true&#8221; (since a church can be anything from a building to a belief system), but the statement that the gospel is true is an assertion that the Gospel will lead you on to an eternal reward.</p>
<p>This is why it is so common for people to say that Mormons are going to Hell. The logic is that if: </p>
<ol>
<li>
<div class="content">Mormons have beliefs that are not approved of God (such as the Book of Mormon or the prophetic authority of Joseph Smith) and</div>
</li>
<li>
<div class="content">Their unapproved doctrine is false in the sense that it will lead them away from a heavenly reward then</div>
</li>
<li>
<div class="content">Mormons are going to Hell.</div>
</li>
</ol>
<p class="content">The question of whether individuals or groups are capable of plotting &#8220;true&#8221; courses towards heaven (as well as the question of whether there can be more than one &#8220;true&#8221; course), are still widely debated.</p>
<p class="content">I&#8217;d be interested to hear what others think.  Do you believe everyone can know?  Can anyone?  Can you?  Discuss.</p>
<a class="a2a_dd addtoany_share_save" href="http://www.addtoany.com/share_save?linkurl=http%3A%2F%2Fmormonmatters.org%2F2009%2F02%2F13%2Fwhat-is-truth%2F&amp;linkname=What%20is%20Truth%3F"><img src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/plugins/add-to-any/share_save_171_16.png" width="171" height="16" alt="Share/Bookmark"/></a>]]></content:encoded>
			<wfw:commentRss>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/02/13/what-is-truth/feed/</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>6</slash:comments>
		</item>
		<item>
		<title>The Role of the Church in the Pursuit of Righteousness: Why It Works for Some and Not for Others</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/02/12/the-role-of-the-church-in-the-pursuit-of-righteousness-why-it-works-for-some-and-not-for-others/</link>
		<comments>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/02/12/the-role-of-the-church-in-the-pursuit-of-righteousness-why-it-works-for-some-and-not-for-others/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Feb 2009 06:30:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Ray</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Anti-Mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Culture]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Happiness]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Mormons]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Peace]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[apostasy]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[church]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[doubt]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[faith]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[homosexuality]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[religion]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[righteousness]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[spirituality]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=4013</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Last April, as I was contemplating my monthly New Year&#8217;s resolution (Hunger and Thirst After Righteousness), something struck me quite forcefully &#8211; something I had never considered previously in quite the same way. I was struck by the difference between &#8220;righteousness&#8221; and &#8220;spirituality&#8220;. Since that epiphany, I also have considered the difference between &#8220;religiosity&#8221; and [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Last April, as I was contemplating my monthly New Year&#8217;s resolution (<a href="http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com/2008/04/hunger-and-thirst-after-righteousness.html">Hunger and Thirst After Righteousness</a>), something struck me quite forcefully &#8211; something I had never considered previously in quite the same way. I was struck by the difference between &#8220;<strong>righteousness</strong>&#8221; and &#8220;<strong>spirituality</strong>&#8220;. Since that epiphany, I also have considered the difference between &#8220;<strong>religiosity</strong>&#8221; and &#8220;<strong>spirituality</strong>&#8221; and how these very different things affect one&#8217;s membership in and testimony of Mormonism &#8211; and, by extension, any other Christian denomination.  I believe this basic discussion also plays out in why some Mormons leave the Church and where they end up as a result.</p>
<p>In looking at &#8220;righteousness&#8221;, &#8220;spirituality&#8221; and &#8220;religiosity&#8221; throughout the scriptures, my search of the scriptures was incredibly instructive.<span id="more-4013"></span> &#8220;Religious&#8221; appears only 4 times in our entire canon &#8211; two of which are in the D&amp;C and two of which are in the NT.  One of the NT references (<a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/acts/13/43#43">Acts 13:43</a>) means simply &#8220;attached to or in line with a particualr religion&#8221; (the core meaning of &#8220;religious&#8221;), while the other NT reference (<a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/james/1/26#26">James 1:26</a>) actually is a negative usage (&#8220;If any man among you seem to be <span class="searchword">religious</span>, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man’s religion is vain.&#8221;) &#8220;Religiosity&#8221; (the actual result of being religious) never appears in our scriptures.  In summary, <strong>there is no encouragement or command in the scriptures to be religious, and no blessings are attached to that goal &#8211; probably since someone could belong to a religion that encourages human sacrifice and still be &#8220;religious&#8221; in the purest sense of the word.</strong></p>
<p>On the other hand, the adjective, &#8220;righteous&#8221;, has <strong>214 references</strong> in our canon, and the adjective, &#8220;spiritual&#8221;, is listed <strong>45 times</strong>. That is interesting. However, the noun, &#8220;righteousness&#8221; (the actual result of being righteous), appears in our canon <strong>274 times</strong>, while the noun, &#8220;spirituality&#8221; (the actual result of being spiritual), appears a grand total of . . . . . . . <strong>0 times</strong>. Nada; not once; zero; nil; never &#8211; in our entire standard works. <strong>That alone told me something profound, since it is found exactly as often as &#8220;religiosity&#8221;.</strong></p>
<p>When I looked up &#8220;spirituality&#8221; in the dictionary, the most interesting and comprehensive definition was, &#8220;of, relating to, consisting of, or having the nature of spirit; not tangible or material&#8221;. In other words, at the most fundamental level, to &#8220;be spiritual&#8221; means to be focused on the spirit &#8211; and, by extension,<span style="font-weight: bold;"> away from the body</span>.</p>
<p>&#8220;Righteous&#8221;, on the other hand, is defined as &#8220;characterized by or proceeding from accepted standards of morality or justice&#8221;. In other words, to &#8220;be righteous&#8221; means to be &#8220;right with or living in accordance with proper standards <span style="font-weight: bold;">of action, not thought</span>&#8221; &#8211; which implies actions that, of necessity, are accomplished by the soul (the connected and united body and spirit).</p>
<blockquote><p>Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.</p></blockquote>
<p>The thought that hit me was that there is a real difference between being &#8220;spiritual&#8221; and being &#8220;righteous&#8221;. There is an even bigger difference between pursuing &#8220;spirituality&#8221; and striving for &#8220;righteousness&#8221; &#8211; and, by extension, pursuing &#8220;religiosity&#8221;. If I have to choose between one of these three, I need to choose righteousness as the object of my hunger and thirst. Spirituality can be a motivating factor in pursuing a connection to the Holy Spirit, but it alone cannot produce a perfect (complete and whole) life lived in harmony with God&#8217;s standards for all His children. Again, we are not blessed for seeking spirituality or religiosity as an end goal &#8211; to hunger and thirst after either of them. Rather, we are blessed for pursuing righteousness. Why is that?</p>
<p>In a very real way, &#8220;spirituality&#8221;, alone and isolated, is selfish, inwardly focused, susceptible to gluttony (constant spiritual feeding with no service to burn away spiritual calories), insular, and not inherently active or giving. It is understanding without application; it is the spirit divorced from the body; it is belief without action; in a way, it is like faith without works. Furthermore, if pursued exclusively, it can lead to a hermit-like existence away from the world &#8211; like a monk sequestered in a monastery living a life of isolated introspection &#8211; doing no bad, but also doing no good &#8211; never finding completeness and wholeness.</p>
<p>On the other hand, &#8220;righteousness&#8221; is selfless, focused on actions, high spiritual energy consuming, service-oriented, producing fruits that can feed one&#8217;s self and others and bring the Holy Ghost to replenish personal spirituality. &#8220;Righteousness&#8221; is the physical application of true &#8220;spirituality&#8221; &#8211; the &#8220;proof&#8221; of real faith &#8211; and the difference between the &#8220;fruits of the Spirit&#8221; and the &#8220;works of man&#8221;. (The last comparison is a separate topic for another post.)</p>
<p>No wonder the command is <strong>NOT</strong> to hunger and thirst after spirituality, but instead to hunger and thirst after righteousness. In fact, what hit me as I typed my post last April is that righteousness can be phrased as &#8220;<span style="font-weight: bold;">being</span> right with God&#8221; &#8211; and the pursuit of righteousness can be phrased as the pursuit of &#8220;<strong>becoming</strong> one with God&#8221;. That is a good way of describing the effect of God&#8217;s grace &#8211; since it is God&#8217;s grace that allows &#8220;being right&#8221; to mean being as complete and whole as one can be at any given point on the path that leads eventually to becoming truly complete and whole. One can be &#8220;righteous&#8221; all along that path, all the while hungering and thirsting after perfect righteousness.</p>
<p>Tying all of this back to people leaving the Church, I believe that the proper pursuit of righteousness is a combination of proper religiosity (being in line with a religious institution) and proper spirituality (being in tune with the working of the Spirit).  I think that we cannot be &#8220;righteous&#8221; if we aren&#8217;t pursuing both &#8211; and I also believe that &#8220;sprituality&#8221; is something that the institutional church cannot provide.  It must be pursued independent of &#8220;religiosity&#8221; &#8211; on one&#8217;s own time, if you will.  I also believe that spirituality and religiosity cannot be separated and produce righteousness &#8211; since, at the most basic level, &#8220;faith without works is dead, being alone&#8221;.  (<a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/james/2/14-26#14">James 2:14-26</a>)</p>
<p>Many people leave the Church because, &#8220;It lacks true spirituality.&#8221;  I agree; the Church, as a disembodied institution, does lack true spirituality &#8211; since true spirituality is found spirit to spirit.  I believe the role of the Church is to provide a formal structure of &#8220;religiosity&#8221; that, when combined with individual &#8220;spirituality&#8221;, creates true &#8220;righteousness&#8221;.  Therefore, in my mind, the key to the Church&#8217;s role in my eternal development is to present an overarching theological vision that inspires me to pursue the type of divine unity (including <strong>community</strong>) that Jesus taught in the Sermon on the Mount (summed up in <a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/matt/5/48#48">Matthew 5:48</a>) and for which he prayed in the Intercessory Prayer (all of John 17, summed up in <a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/john/17/21-23#21">John 17:21-23</a>).</p>
<p>Having said that, many wards and branches of the Church contain powerful and vibrant spirituality, since many members of those congregations are deeply spiritual; many others do not contain that type of spirituality, since many members of those congregations are not deeply spiritual.  &#8220;The Church&#8221; provides the theological vision that can enliven and inspire righteousness (a &#8220;true and living&#8221; combination of faith and works), but in order to tap into that &#8220;righteousness&#8221; each member (and local ward or branch) must, of necessity, be both spiritual in and of themselves <strong>AND </strong>tapped into the religiosity the organization provides.</p>
<p>Those who leave the Church simply have not married (<strong>and perhaps cannot marry</strong>) their own spirituality to the institution&#8217;s religiosity in a way that produces empowering righteousness, while those who stay often have done so &#8211; or are still in pursuit of that goal.  I believe too many members rely on the Church to provide their spirituality, and when they realize that the Church is incapable of doing what they need to do themselves, they leave &#8211; to find outside of the Church what they failed to find inside it.  (This is understandable in the lives of those who struggle mightily in one ward or branch, then flourish in another one &#8211; or vice versa. Some, lacking internal spirituality, end up reflecting the spirituality of the congregation they attend &#8211; for better or worse; others have internal spirituality but can&#8217;t deal with the lack they see feel around them.)</p>
<p>Many people take a much more active role in their own spirituality once they leave the Church (especially those who leave with the express purpose of seeking spirituality), and, not surprisingly, they then become more spiritual than they had been as members.  Many are constricted by the particular religiosity of Mormonism and must leave in order to pursue a combination of spirituality and religiosity that can bring them a measure of righteousness (like homosexual members), but it is interesting to consider those who end up returning to Mormonism once they have found the personal spirituality they lacked previously.  Once they become spiritually independent of their religiosity, they are able to return to their former religiosity as new beings and find righteousness in a new manifestation of their former faith.  Others never do return, and too many end up blaming the Church for not being able to provide them what it <strong>DOES</strong> provide others.</p>
<p>The real tragedy is that too many deny what the Church really does provide for the majority of its members, simply because they didn&#8217;t gain it themselves.</p>
<p><strong>NOTE: I need to mention two previous posts here on Mormon Matters that delve into this general topic.  They are worth reviewing: </strong></p>
<p>1) Stephen Marsh&#8217;s &#8220;<a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2008/05/22/shadows-and-spirituality/">Shadows and Spirituality</a>&#8221;</p>
<p>2) Hawkgrrrl&#8217;s &#8220;<a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2008/07/29/spiritual-or-religious/">Spiritual or Just Religious</a>&#8220;</p>
<a class="a2a_dd addtoany_share_save" href="http://www.addtoany.com/share_save?linkurl=http%3A%2F%2Fmormonmatters.org%2F2009%2F02%2F12%2Fthe-role-of-the-church-in-the-pursuit-of-righteousness-why-it-works-for-some-and-not-for-others%2F&amp;linkname=The%20Role%20of%20the%20Church%20in%20the%20Pursuit%20of%20Righteousness%3A%20Why%20It%20Works%20for%20Some%20and%20Not%20for%20Others"><img src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/plugins/add-to-any/share_save_171_16.png" width="171" height="16" alt="Share/Bookmark"/></a>]]></content:encoded>
			<wfw:commentRss>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/02/12/the-role-of-the-church-in-the-pursuit-of-righteousness-why-it-works-for-some-and-not-for-others/feed/</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>17</slash:comments>
		</item>
		<item>
		<title>The Purposes of God Cannot Be Frustrated</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/02/10/the-purposes-of-god-cannot-be-frustrated/</link>
		<comments>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/02/10/the-purposes-of-god-cannot-be-frustrated/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Feb 2009 20:35:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>guest</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Anti-Mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Asides]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[LDS]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Leaders]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Mormons]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[apologetics]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[apostasy]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[book of mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[christianity]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[church]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[curiosity]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[doubt]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[faith]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[historicity]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[history]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[joseph]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[polygamy]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[prophets]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[questioning]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[religion]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[repentance]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[righteousness]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[sexuality]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[smith]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[testimony]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[theology]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[thought]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Doctrine & Covenants]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Forgiveness]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Gospel Doctrine]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[imperfection]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[weakness]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=4102</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The title is from DC3:1.  Today&#8217;s guest post is from Bouvet and is in reference to this year&#8217;s Doctrine &#38; Covenants manual, Lesson 4 is Remember the New Covenant, Even the Book of Mormon.  
This year the lesson manual has abandoned the idea of following the development of the Church and the reception of the revelations [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div class="content">The title is from DC3:1.  Today&#8217;s guest post is from Bouvet and is in reference to this year&#8217;s Doctrine &amp; Covenants manual, Lesson 4 is <span style="font-style: italic;">Remember the New Covenant, Even the Book of Mormon</span>.  <span id="more-4102"></span><br />
This year the lesson manual has abandoned the idea of following the development of the Church and the reception of the revelations through time and instead has moved to a topical format. My knee-jerk reaction is to attribute this to a desire to avoid tough topics in church history and make the teachers stick to some abstract doctrine or principal.   The lesson is supposed to be focused on the coming forth of the Book of Mormon. It covers DC 3 and 10 and a bunch of JS-H.</p>
<p>While I did cover most of the scriptures included in the lesson I went a completely different direction with it. This was the exact lesson I needed at this moment of time.  But the real point of the lesson was the fact that the purposes of God cannot be frustrated by Joseph Smith&#8217;s boneheaded weaknesses. This is a major and significant lesson.</p>
<p>Joseph was praying for forgiveness the night that Moroni came because he had become a lazy prankster who liked to dig for buried treasure. He knew he was not someone who would be expected to be a Prophet&#8211;there was nothing exceptional about him. He was not preparing himself very well for any great work.</p>
<p><em>But it was OK. God was going to use him anyway. Moroni comes to see him.<br />
</em><br />
Then he meets Emma while employed digging for a long lost Spanish silver mine down by Harmony and instead of getting a real job and making himself respectable, he just dishonors Emma&#8217;s family and runs off with her to get married without blessing or permission. This was a selfish and impulsive act contrary to one of the 10 commandments. Can you imagine how he would be lauded in the Church today if he had stayed for a year working on a local farm proving himself to get Emma&#8217;s parents permission. But we largely ignore the elopement.</p>
<p><em>But it was OK. God was going to use him anyway. He gets the plates.<br />
</em><br />
Then he gives the 116 pages to Martin after not taking no for an answer and a lifetime of Father Lehi&#8217;s work is gone in an instant. All Lehi&#8217;s blood sweat and tears put into his record are thrown down the drain because Joseph is a stubborn and disobedient sod.</p>
<p><em>But it was OK. God was going to use him anyway. He got the plates back and finished the rest of the book and the Small Plates of Nephi cover the gap in the story (to a certain extent).<br />
</em><br />
The lesson covered the bringing forth of the Book of Mormon, but I taught the lesson of how Joseph kept failing during the process of bringing for the Book of Mormon (I only mentioned the elopement in passing) and how <em>that was OK because he repented and the work of God rolled forward</em>.</p>
<p>One cannot read Sections 3 and 10 honestly and think anything other than Joseph&#8217;s falling from his calling was not only possible but might have seemed at times likely. The doctrine of the Prophet not ever being able to lead the Church astray comes much latter. (It is found in the excerpted conference talks by Wilford Woodruff after the Manifesto in the PofGP.) In 1828 and the years following, it probably seemed likely to even Joseph that he would be rejected.</p>
<p>I also find it interesting that he is directly reproved in Section 3 verse 4 for his &#8220;carnal desires&#8221;. It is no surprise that later it is precisely his carnal desires leading to Fanny Alger and Marinda Knight and so many others that lead so many of the early Church leaders to conclude he was a fallen Prophet and leave his side.</p>
<p>I have a testimony that despite all Joseph&#8217;s weaknesses&#8211;including being too often a petty dictator and horny lustmonger&#8211;he was the Lord&#8217;s chosen. He made many mistakes, many serious mistakes. They ended up costing him his life. But his mistakes did not frustrate the purposes of God. The restoration happened, imperfectly, but it happened.</p>
<p>And so today the Church rolls forward. Imperfectly (very very imperfectly) but it rolls forward. Some cannot abide the imperfections. I don&#8217;t blame them. Sometimes I want to join them. Often even. <em>But no imperfections, not matter how ugly or pervasive, can stop the work of God entirely. </em>It is too hard for me to remember that truth.</p>
<p>I love Joseph Smith. I want to slap him upside the head for being so often a total idiot. But I love him just the same.</p>
<p>This is where I am at today anyway.</p></div>
<a class="a2a_dd addtoany_share_save" href="http://www.addtoany.com/share_save?linkurl=http%3A%2F%2Fmormonmatters.org%2F2009%2F02%2F10%2Fthe-purposes-of-god-cannot-be-frustrated%2F&amp;linkname=The%20Purposes%20of%20God%20Cannot%20Be%20Frustrated"><img src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/plugins/add-to-any/share_save_171_16.png" width="171" height="16" alt="Share/Bookmark"/></a>]]></content:encoded>
			<wfw:commentRss>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/02/10/the-purposes-of-god-cannot-be-frustrated/feed/</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>20</slash:comments>
		</item>
	</channel>
</rss>
