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	<title>Mormon Matters &#187; FLDS</title>
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		<title>Mormon Matters</title>
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	<itunes:subtitle>A weekly podcast exploring Mormon current events, pop culture, politics and spirituality</itunes:subtitle>
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		<title>The Seder, Social Justice, and Leroy Jessop</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2010/04/01/seder-socialjustice-jessop/</link>
		<comments>http://mormonmatters.org/2010/04/01/seder-socialjustice-jessop/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Apr 2010 11:15:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Bored in Vernal</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Bible]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[FLDS]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Jews]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[LDS lessons]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Mormons]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[polygamy]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[religion]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[sacrament]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[symbols]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Old Testament; Sunday School]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=10226</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[OT SS Lesson #13 At a Passover Seder this week, President Barack Obama&#8217;s message to American Jews focused on social justice. Obama said that the message of the Exodus teaches of oppression to be fought and freedom to be won, and that we all have a responsibility to fight against suffering and discrimination wherever we find it. Some Jewish journalists discussing the remarks saw them as a veiled reprimand against Israeli settlements in Palestinian territory. Others heartily agreed that Jews should be particularly sensitive to oppression. The American Prospect&#8217;s Adam Serwer enthused: &#8220;I&#8217;ve viewed Passover as an opportunity not just to reflect on the historical oppression of my own people but on the suffering of others in the present day&#8230; Passover doesn&#8217;t exist merely for Jews to congratulate ourselves on our continued existence &#8212; although that is no mean feat. The reminder that we were once slaves in Egypt is meant to make us consider contemporary questions of justice&#8230; If you&#8217;re unable to take away from Passover an understanding of your own role as a Jew in fighting the injustice done to other people who do not also happen to be Jewish, the experience is meaningless.&#8221; It could be that [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/c51.jpg"><img class="alignleft size-thumbnail wp-image-7683" title="Avatar-BiV" src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/c51-150x150.jpg" alt="Avatar-BiV" width="80" height="80" /></a><big><strong>OT SS Lesson #13</strong></big></p>
<p>At a <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/28/us/politics/28seder.html">Passover Seder</a> this week, President Barack Obama&#8217;s message to American Jews focused on social justice.  Obama said that the message of the Exodus teaches of oppression to be fought and freedom to be won, and that we all have a responsibility to fight against suffering and discrimination wherever we find it.  Some Jewish journalists discussing the remarks saw them as a veiled reprimand against Israeli settlements in Palestinian territory.  Others heartily agreed that Jews should be particularly sensitive to oppression.  The American Prospect&#8217;s <a href="http://www.prospect.org/csnc/blogs/tapped_archive?month=03&amp;year=2010&amp;base_name=wingnuts_across_the_ocean">Adam Serwer</a> enthused:</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;I&#8217;ve viewed Passover as an opportunity not just to reflect on the historical oppression of my own people but on the suffering of others in the present day&#8230; Passover doesn&#8217;t exist merely for Jews to congratulate ourselves on our continued existence &#8212; although that is no mean feat. The reminder that we were once slaves in Egypt is meant to make us consider contemporary questions of justice&#8230;  If you&#8217;re unable to take away from Passover an understanding of your own role as a Jew in fighting the injustice done to other people who do not also happen to be Jewish, the experience is meaningless.&#8221;<span id="more-10226"></span></p></blockquote>
<p>It could be that the symbolic elements of the Jewish Passover are more meaningful to Mormons than to any religious group outside the Jews themselves.  We recognize the emblems of the Seder to be representative of the Messiah who came in the incarnation of Jesus Christ.  The <a href="http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&amp;locale=0&amp;sourceId=8ff3c106dac20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&amp;vgnextoid=198bf4b13819d110VgnVCM1000003a94610aRCRD">lesson material</a> includes several connections between descriptions of the Passover in the Old Testament and Jesus Christ.  It was during a Passover seder that Jesus proclaimed that the meal represented Himself and that He was instituting the New Covenant, which is celebrated by Christians in the form of the sacrament of the Lord&#8217;s Supper.  Elder Jeffrey R. Holland admonished Latter-day Saints to view this sacrament as <em>our</em> passover, remembrance of <em>our</em> safety and deliverance and redemption.</p>
<p>In addition, Mormons experienced their own Exodus when they were led out of the boundaries of the United States by their &#8220;<a href="http://www.timelineindex.com/content/view/2758">American Moses</a>,&#8221; Brigham Young.  Leonard J. Arrington subtitled his biography of Young &#8220;American Moses,&#8221; explaining:</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;Brigham was the same sort of a leader as Moses in serving people for a long period of time, in achieving their goal of entering into a kingdom blessed by God&#8230; Brigham was something for us that Moses was for the people of Israel. He led his people figuratively and quite literally, and they survived because of that leadership and their faith.</p></blockquote>
<p>I do think the epic stories which identify the early Mormons and the children of Israel as a people persecuted for their religious convictions are meaningful. Obama&#8217;s exhortation to use this as a motivator to fight injustice rings true to my &#8220;Latter-day Israelite&#8221; heart.  And this is why I&#8217;ve identified so strongly with the plight of the FLDS men of the Yearning for Zion ranch in Texas who are now being sentenced for their plural marriages.  I don&#8217;t expect any of the readers here at Mormon Matters to agree with me on this.  But I&#8217;m sad that the justice system is sending hard-working, religiously-motivated men to prison, depriving their young wives and children of their loving care.  I often wonder why we, with the heritage we have of being misunderstood for our unusual marital practices, are not more sympathetic to the men who have been sentenced this month.  <img class="alignright" src="http://www.oag.state.tx.us/newspubs/releases/2008/072808jessop_merril.jpg" alt="" width="200" height="250" />In particular, I speak of Merril Leroy Jessop, who was sentenced March 19th to a 75-year prison sentence and $10,000 fine.  To me, this seems a clear case of religious discrimination and oppression. Jessop was accused of having sex with a girl who was 15 years old when he was 31 and already married. Even if you think these men are criminals who deserve to be punished and  these young women are victims, the sentence is excessive.  A <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_and_punishment">Wikipedia article</a> states that the average sentence for convicted rapists was 11.8 years, while the actual time served was 5.4 years. What sets this case apart from many other similar situations? The prosecution asked the jury to send a message to a collective group of people, to make the price so high to dissuade others from doing the same.  This is unconstitutional and in my eyes constitutes religious persecution.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t want to go on about this particular case &#8212; it&#8217;s only one example of what I see as injustice and oppression, and there are of course many more.  But I do appreciate President Obama&#8217;s invitation to connect Exodus and the Passover story with social justice.  I thought I&#8217;d share with you what&#8217;s going through my mind during this Passover week, and what I&#8217;ll be thinking of as LDS Sunday School classes comfortably discuss Moses.</p>
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		<slash:comments>29</slash:comments>
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		<item>
		<title>An Outsider&#8217;s Look at the United Effort Plan</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/07/29/an-outsiders-look-at-the-united-effort-plan/</link>
		<comments>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/07/29/an-outsiders-look-at-the-united-effort-plan/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 21:00:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Bored in Vernal</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Discrimination]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[FLDS]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[news]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[politics]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Utah]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[religion]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=6665</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[If you were in downtown Salt Lake City today, you may have noticed a large rally of over a thousand peacefully protesting polygamists. What is happening to the financial affairs of the FLDS right now seems completely inexplicable, but I need to try to understand what is going on.  And it seems to me to behoove every citizen of the United States to do the same. This is going to be a vastly simplified version of events, as I understand them: The FLDS are a group of people with Mormon restorationist roots who believe in principles espoused early in the history of our movement, such as plural marriage and consecration.  They formed a community with its base in Colorado City, on the Utah/Arizona border in the 1930s.  Their desire to live the Law of Consecration resulted in what became known as the United Effort Plan (UEP), which started as a subsidiary organization of the FLDS church.  Properties and businesses were owned by the UEP and members received trusts to live on and develop. In 2005, The Attorney General of Utah filed a lawsuit and seized the holdings of the UEP in the FLDS communities of Hildale, Utah; Colorado City, Ariz.; [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you were in downtown Salt Lake City today, you may have noticed a large rally of over a thousand peacefully protesting polygamists. What is happening to the financial affairs of the FLDS right now seems completely inexplicable, but I need to try to understand what is going on.  And it seems to me to behoove every citizen of the United States to do the same.<span id="more-6665"></span></p>
<p><img class="aligncenter size-full wp-image-6668" title="flds protest" src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/flds.jpg" alt="FLDS Protest at Matheson Courthouse" /></p>
<p>This is going to be a vastly simplified version of events, as I understand them:</p>
<p>The FLDS are a group of people with Mormon restorationist roots who believe in principles espoused early in the history of our movement, such as plural marriage and consecration.  They formed a community with its base in Colorado City, on the Utah/Arizona border in the 1930s.  Their desire to live the Law of Consecration resulted in what became known as the United Effort Plan (UEP), which started as a subsidiary organization of the FLDS church.  Properties and businesses were owned by the UEP and members received trusts to live on and develop.</p>
<p>In 2005, The Attorney General of Utah filed a lawsuit and seized the holdings of the UEP in the FLDS communities of Hildale, Utah; Colorado City, Ariz.; and Bountiful, British Columbia in Canada. It was alleged that Warren Jeffs and other FLDS leaders had mismanaged it, including defaulting on a series of civil lawsuits.  An accountant, Bruce Wisan, was appointed to act as special fiduciary of the trust, with its estimated $100 million in assets.</p>
<p>First of all, I don&#8217;t understand the legal process that could seize control of this arrangement when the majority of its members wish to continue their involvement in the United Order.  Judge Denise P. Lindberg has stated in a recent ruling that because the trust is being used illegally, &#8220;to promote polygamy,&#8221; that distributing the land to the FLDS church is invalid and violates basic trust law.  Fundamentalist supporters make this argument:</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;If a trust is declared invalid, shouldn&#8217;t it simply be dissolved and the assets revert back to original ownership (or as close to it as possible)? Does the state or any court have the power to absorb private trust assets or give them to other people, based on the fact that the state and/or court do not approve of the beliefs and or practices of the organizers or beneficiaries of said trust?&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>Second, Wisan appears very hostile to the aims of the UEP.  Why would this Mormon Stake President be given control over how to manage the assets of several entire communities of people?  It&#8217;s been very, very disturbing to read reports of how the trust has been handled since he has become involved.    Perhaps I&#8217;m missing something, but of their own free will these people have legally signed their property over to their church.  Now, measures such as the sale of property set aside for a temple, and reforms designed to violate the rights of the FLDS to live their religion are being enacted.  Little notice is being taken of the desires of those who have entered into the trust and whose financial, emotional, and spiritual interests are at stake.</p>
<p>In Lindberg&#8217;s ruling, FLDS members and church representatives Willie Jessop, Dan Johnson, Merlin Jessop, Lyle Jeffs and James Oler were prevented from any input in the case involving the United Effort Plan (UEP) Trust.</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;It is black letter law that potential beneficiaries of charitable trusts have no right to make claims upon such trusts,&#8221; she wrote. &#8220;Because the UEP Trust is a charitable trust, the only individuals with legally cognizable interests are the Utah and Arizona Attorneys General as representatives of the community, and the court-designated special fiduciary.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>In this country, we don&#8217;t take away an individual&#8217;s legal rights because he has had a consensual sexual relationship with a person other than his wife.  If this person prefers to call his relationship a marriage, and connects it with his religious practice, why is there suddenly a concerted effort to deprive him of his rights?</p>
<p>&#8220;<a href="http://pluralwife.blogspot.com/2009/07/peaceful-protest-at-matheson-courthouse.html">Principle Voices</a>,&#8221; a support group for those involved in fundamentalist Mormon lifestyles, has voiced their opposition to</p>
<blockquote><p>1) any ruling that deprives polygamists of the right to organize or manage a trust with their own assets.</p>
<p>2) any ruling that declares a trust formed by polygamists as &#8220;promoting illegal activities&#8221;, &#8220;invalid&#8221;, un-Constitutional, or &#8220;illegal&#8221;, simply because the organizers embrace plural marriage.</p>
<p>3) any ruling that deprives the FLDS (or any other polygamists) of the right to access their own assets or their right to self-governance. (By extension, substitute the name of any other group such as the Kingstons or the AUB, etc., in place of FLDS; we oppose any ruling or government action that would deprive any of those communities of their rights.)</p>
<p>4) any ruling or government action that establishes an inequity in the law that distinguishes, and diminishes, the rights of polygamists from the rights of other American citizens.</p></blockquote>
<p>A group of people sympathetic to these points has gathered to stage a <a href="http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_12936897">peaceful protest </a>today (Wednesday, July 29), outside the Matheson courthouse in support of these concerns.  Here the court is considering the sale of the several hundred acres of land known as Berry Knoll which has been prophesied as the future site of their temple.   Do you disagree with their points?  Do you feel that the rulings being contemplated in the case of the UEP constitute an inequity in the law?  Do you believe, as I do, that Mormons and other citizens should have an interest in the outcome of these proceedings?</p>
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		<slash:comments>95</slash:comments>
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		<item>
		<title>Why Faith Needs Reason</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/04/29/why-faith-needs-reason/</link>
		<comments>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/04/29/why-faith-needs-reason/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Apr 2009 09:00:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[curiosity]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[doubt]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[faith]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[FLDS]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[LDS]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Leaders]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Logic]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Mormons]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[obedience]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[polygamy]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[prayer]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[prophets]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[questioning]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[religion]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[testimony]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[theology]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[thought]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Reason]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=5062</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The tragedy of 9/11 had a big impact on my views about the relationship between faith and reason. As I watched the video footage of the jumbo jets flying into the World Trade Center towers over and over again, it dawned on me that I was witnessing the destructive power of faith unchecked by reason. Consider for a moment the faith proposition that motivated the 9/11 hijackers: &#8220;If you slit a few throats to hijack a plane and then fly that plane into a skyscraper, killing yourself and all your comrades along with thousands of civilian men, women, and children, then God will reward you in Heaven with 72 virgins who will provide you more sensual delights than you could ever have hoped to enjoy during mortality.&#8221; Viewing the fruits of the hijackers&#8217; faith &#8212; the twisted steel and endless ash, the homemade &#8220;Missing&#8221; flyers plastered everywhere, the sobbing relatives of the victims &#8212; I couldn&#8217;t help wishing the hijackers would have run that faith proposition through the wringer of reason before deciding to act upon it. Faith needs reason because faith unchecked by reason can be just as deadly as reason unchecked by faith proved to be in the [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/9-11.jpg"><img class="alignright size-thumbnail wp-image-5148" title="9-11" src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/9-11.jpg" alt="" width="210" height="227" /></a>The tragedy of 9/11 had a big impact on my views about the relationship between faith and reason.  As I watched the video footage of the jumbo jets flying into the World Trade Center towers over and over again, it dawned on me that I was witnessing the destructive power of faith unchecked by reason.  Consider for a moment the faith proposition that motivated the 9/11 hijackers: &#8220;If you slit a few throats to hijack a plane and then fly that plane into a skyscraper, killing yourself and all your comrades along with thousands of civilian men, women, and children, then God will reward you in Heaven with 72 virgins who will provide you more sensual delights than you could ever have hoped to enjoy during mortality.&#8221;  Viewing the fruits of the hijackers&#8217; faith &#8212; the twisted steel and endless ash, the homemade &#8220;Missing&#8221; flyers plastered everywhere, the sobbing relatives of the victims &#8212; I couldn&#8217;t help wishing the hijackers would have run that faith proposition through the wringer of reason before deciding to act upon it.</p>
<p>Faith needs reason because faith unchecked by reason can be just as deadly as reason unchecked by faith proved to be in the <em>gulags</em> of Soviet Russia, the Cultural Revolutions of Maoist China, and the killing fields of the Khmer Rouge&#8217;s Cambodia.  (Would Stalin, Mao, and Pot have ordered the killings of millions if they had had faith in an afterlife and final judgment?)</p>
<p>We Mormons are certainly not immune to the potential dangers of unquestioning faith.<span id="more-5062"></span></p>
<p>Brigham Young once said he feared that members of the Church would &#8220;settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation . . . .&#8221; (<em>Journal of Discourses,</em> 9:150 [quoted by James E. Faust, “Continuous Revelation,” <em>Ensign</em>, Nov 1989, 8].)  When unconditional confidence in our church leaders is so often hailed as a virtue, one wonders what Brigham had in mind exactly when he warned church members against &#8220;trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a <em>reckless confidence</em> that in itself would <em>thwart the purposes of God </em>in [our] salvation&#8221;.   I wonder, what are &#8220;the purposes of God in [our] salvation&#8221; that are potentially thwarted by &#8220;reckless confidence&#8221; in church leaders?</p>
<p>In a similar vein, Brigham taught that we Mormons still have work to do in identifying and rooting out erroneous beliefs held among us.  He explained that we receive revelation &#8220;line upon line&#8221; only to the degree that we have first thrown off &#8220;our false traditions and foolish notions&#8221;. [1]  For me, hearing an LDS Prophet acknowledge that even we Mormons have &#8220;false traditions and foolish notions&#8221; suggests we have an ongoing obligation to critically evaluate our longstanding doctrines, policies, and practices to determine whether any of them are, in fact, false and foolish.</p>
<p>Of course, the greatest obstacle to identifying our &#8220;false traditions and foolish notions&#8221; is our own unwillingness to critically examine ourselves.  There is no doubt that critical evaluation of our doctrines, policies, and practices is a delicate art in LDS circles, and there are plenty of examples of how <em>not </em>to criticize the Church.  However, if done properly, critical evaluation can help us identify the false traditions and foolish notions among us so that we may lay them off, and thereby open our hearts and minds to new revelation from God (the Church&#8217;s re-evaluation and abandonment of the pre-1978 priesthood ban being an excellent example).  In other words, when done properly, critical evaluation does not tear down the Church, it builds up the Church.</p>
<p>But despite our having successfully cast aside certain false traditions and foolish notions in the past, and despite the scriptural warnings against being lulled into an &#8220;all is well in Zion&#8221; mentality, there persists a strong resistance to the idea that other false traditions and foolish notions may still exist among us.  As a result, when reasoned inquiry suggests that a longstanding doctrine, policy, or practice may be a false tradition or foolish notion that we ought to cast aside, such suggestions are often met with a host of misquotations, misinterpretations, and misapplications of scripture and doctrine that collectively promote the idea that true faith requires us to continue to adhere to the officially established <em>status quo</em>, even if it seems to be erroneous in our reasoned judgment.  (Might that be the &#8220;reckless confidence&#8221; Brigham Young warned us against?)  And the problem with that approach is that it can potentially lead people to embrace all manner of falsehood and evil, and in the cleverest manner of all: by convincing people that true faith requires them to ignore their reasoned judgment.</p>
<p>To illustrate my point, I&#8217;ve presented a fictional conversation below between an FLDS leader and an FLDS teenage girl.  In the discussion below, an FLDS teenage girl is having reasonable doubts about FLDS doctrines, policies, and practices.  At every step of the way, her FLDS leader gives her familiar responses designed to reinforce the idea that God is testing her faith by seeing whether she will unconditionally obey her church leaders regardless of her reasonable objections.  As you read the conversation below, ask yourself this one question: Should this FLDS teenage girl abandon her reasonable doubts about FLDS doctrines, policies, and practices and exercise unconditional faith in her church leaders?  Or should she listen to her inner voice of reason and common sense, and reject the faith propositions that her parents and leaders are attempting to foist upon her?</p>
<p><a href="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/jeffs3.jpg"><img class="alignleft size-thumbnail wp-image-5125" title="jeffs3" src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/jeffs3.jpg" alt="" width="180" height="233" /></a><a href="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/flds-women3.png"><img class="alignnone size-medium wp-image-5127" title="flds-women3" src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/flds-women3.png" alt="" width="328" height="230" /></a></p>
<p>FLDS LEADER: Susan, I hear rumors your faith in President Jeffs and the Brethren is weakening.  What&#8217;s going on?</p>
<p>FLDS GIRL:  Well, brother Jeppson, I have to be honest, I have been having serious doubts about whether everything President Jeffs and the Brethren are doing is right, and whether everything they&#8217;re telling us is true.  I feel so confused, and the more I think about what they&#8217;re doing and what they&#8217;re teaching us, the less sense it all makes to me.</p>
<p>FLDS LEADER: Young lady, God will never give you doubt or confusion.  Satan is the author of doubt and confusion.  God gives you faith.  You need to have faith, nothing wavering.  Doubt not.</p>
<p>FLDS GIRL:  I&#8217;ve heard that before, but I just can&#8217;t help having all these questions about whether the things our church leaders are doing are really God&#8217;s will.</p>
<p>FLDS LEADER: Be careful, young lady, you shouldn&#8217;t be questioning if what our church leaders do and say is right.  Follow the Prophet, President Jeffs.  Don&#8217;t go astray.  And be very careful, because questioning the Brethren is the road to personal Apostasy.</p>
<p>FLDS GIRL:  What does personal Apostasy mean?</p>
<p>FLDS LEADER:  It means rejecting your church leaders, which cuts you off from the one true church and God.</p>
<p>FLDS GIRL:  So when you say that questioning our leaders can lead to personal Apostasy, you&#8217;re saying that questioning our leaders can lead to disagreeing with our leaders and rejecting them?</p>
<p>FLDS LEADER:  That&#8217;s right.</p>
<p>FLDS GIRL: But why should we fear disagreeing with our leaders and rejecting them if they are wrong?</p>
<p>FLDS LEADER:  Susan, how could you possibly think the Brethren are wrong?</p>
<p>FLDS GIRL:  Well, for one, it just seems that so much of what our FLDS leaders do and teach couldn&#8217;t possibly be inspired by God.</p>
<p>FLDS LEADER:  Well, God&#8217;s ways are higher than man&#8217;s ways.  It doesn&#8217;t make sense to you because even God&#8217;s foolishness is wiser than the wisdom of men.</p>
<p>FLDS GIRL: I know its not wise to reject God&#8217;s ways, but how do I know that what FLDS leaders are saying and doing is God&#8217;s way?</p>
<p>FLDS LEADER: Susan, surely you&#8217;ve heard that scripture enough times.  &#8220;Whether by mine own voice or the voice of my servants, it is the same.&#8221;  There you have it.  If our leaders say it, it&#8217;s the same as God saying it.  If President Jeffs says it, then you can rest assured it is God&#8217;s way.</p>
<p>FLDS GIRL:  I&#8217;m not so sure that&#8217;s the correct interpretation of that scripture.  I read that scripture as saying if God says something to his servant, and his servant says it to us, then that indirect communication through a servant is the same as God saying it directly to us. In other words, if A says something to B, and B says it to C, then it&#8217;s the same as A saying it to C.  But  that&#8217;s quite a different proposition than the idea that everything B says to C must have come from A.  That&#8217;s just bad logic.</p>
<p>FLDS LEADER: Bad logic?  It seems to me you&#8217;re using the philosophies of men.  And frankly, I don&#8217;t know where you get off thinking you have authority to interpret scripture for yourself.  FLDS leaders alone have the authority to interpret scripture. And because we are God&#8217;s modern-day Prophets, what we say is new scripture, even if it seems to contradict existing scripture.</p>
<p>FLDS GIRL: I&#8217;m sorry, but I just can&#8217;t buy into that.</p>
<p>FLDS LEADER: You can&#8217;t buy into it?  Young lady, you need to be humble.  Be obedient.  Be teachable.  Be submissive.  Don&#8217;t be so prideful and arrogant as to think that you are better able to discern the truth than your leaders who have decades of experience with matters of the Spirit.</p>
<p>FLDS GIRL:  I&#8217;m sorry, but it just seems ridiculous to me that God would place in the hands of a select few men the ability to discern the truth, and then expect the rest of us to follow them no matter what.</p>
<p>FLDS LEADER:  You&#8217;ve misunderstood me.  I never said that FLDS leaders alone have the ability to discern the truth.  You have the ability to know for yourself that FLDS leaders are God&#8217;s chosen prophets, seers, and revelators.  First you must desire to believe, then you need to pray and ask God in faith, nothing doubting, if what the Brethren tell you is not true, and God will tell you that it is true.</p>
<p>FLDS GIRL:  Well, I&#8217;ve done that, several times, but I don&#8217;t sense God confirming to me so many of the things the FLDS leaders and teaching and doing.</p>
<p>FLDS LEADER:  Well, the Holy Spirit can only communicate with you if you have clean hands and a pure heart. Susan, is there any sin or other misdeed in your life that could be preventing you from feeling the whispers of the Holy Spirit?</p>
<p>FLDS GIRL:  Sins and misdeeds?  I&#8217;m sure I have plenty.  The Bible teaches us that we have all sinned, and that not one doeth good.  The Book of Mormon teaches us that we can&#8217;t count all the ways we can offend God.  So I&#8217;m sure I have many sins.</p>
<p>FLDS LEADER:  Well then, now we&#8217;re making progress.  You need to repent of your sins, and when you&#8217;ve fully repented and abandoned all your sinful ways, you&#8217;ll be able to feel the Holy Spirit confirming the truthfulness of FLDS teachings.  And if you do that and still can&#8217;t feel the Holy Spirit confirming the truthfulness of FLDS teachings, then you need to keep repenting until you can.</p>
<p>FLDS GIRL:  Maybe I should have been more clear.  Although I am sure I have sins, I can assure you that I am not guilty of any serious sins or transgressions.  Like Joseph Smith, I can honestly say that &#8220;while I frequently fall into many foolish errors and display the weakness of youth, and the foibles of human nature; which, I am sorry to say, lead me into divers temptations, offensive in the sight of God. In making this confession, no one need suppose me guilty of any great or malignant sins.&#8221;</p>
<p>FLDS LEADER:  Well then, if you are certain your heart is sufficiently pure to receive revelation, then all you need to do is give the Lord more time to give you a testimony.  Be patient and exercise faith by doing whatever your leaders tell you to do.  And by so doing, over time, maybe even after years or even decades, you will receive a testimony that what they are telling you is true. But don&#8217;t abandon the faith of your fathers. Endure to the end.</p>
<p>FLDS GIRL:  I&#8217;m sorry, but I just can&#8217;t spend my whole life obeying orders and believing things that don&#8217;t make sense to me, hoping that one day, years or decades down the road, I might finally get a witness of their truthfulness.  What if decades go by and that spiritual witness never comes?  By the time I realize it was all wrong all along, it will be too late; most of my life will have already gone by.</p>
<p>FLDS LEADER:  But you don&#8217;t have to worry about that, Susan, because if the Prophet tells you to do something and it&#8217;s wrong, and you obey it, then the Lord will only reward you for your faith and will never punish you for it.  But don&#8217;t worry, because the Lord will never allow President Jeffs to lead us astray in the first place.</p>
<p>FLDS GIRL:  I&#8217;m sorry, but it just doesn&#8217;t make any sense to me that God will reward me for doing something erroneous because I chose to disregard my reason and follow the commandments of men who claimed to be divinely inspired but weren&#8217;t.  And I understand President Jeffs thinks the Lord will never let him lead us astray, but what if President Jeffs is leading us astray by telling us that he will never lead us astray?</p>
<p>FLDS LEADER:  Listen, young lady, you know what the Proverb says: &#8220;Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not to thine own understanding.&#8221;  Trusting in the Lord means trusting in his chosen prophets instead of relying on your own understanding.</p>
<p>FLDS GIRL:  Well, maybe trusting in the Lord means trusting in his prophets, but how do I know the FLDS leaders are God&#8217;s chosen prophets in the first place?</p>
<p>FLDS LEADER:  I already told you: repent and be clean, desire to believe, then pray in faith, nothing doubting, and if the answer doesn&#8217;t come, just keep obeying and doing what they tell you, and in doing everything they tell you to do, eventually you&#8217;ll know for yourself that what they say is true.</p>
<p>FLDS GIRL:  And what if I&#8217;ve done that and I feel the Holy Spirit has told me something that contradicts what the Brethren have said?</p>
<p>FLDS LEADER:  That won&#8217;t ever happen, because everything the Brethren say comes from the Holy Spirit. Remember: they will never lead us astray.</p>
<p>FLDS GIRL:  I hate to say it, but it seems we&#8217;re just going around in circles here.</p>
<p>FLDS LEADER:  You know, that&#8217;s a really contentious thing to say, and I&#8217;m getting really concerned by the contentious tone of your remarks.  Stop contending with me and the Brethren.  Contention is of the Devil.</p>
<p>FLDS GIRL:  So let me get this straight: when our Church rejects all the other religions and churches and their leaders and their beliefs, that&#8217;s not contention.  And when the Brethren tell members they&#8217;re wrong and that they need to get in line, that&#8217;s not contention either.  But when members disagree with the Brethren, that&#8217;s contention?</p>
<p>FLDS LEADER: Young lady, I&#8217;m sad to say it, but it&#8217;s quite apparent to me that you just don&#8217;t have a broken heart and a contrite spirit.</p>
<p>FLDS GIRL:  With all due respect, I don&#8217;t think it has anything to do with that.  It&#8217;s just that so much of what our FLDS leaders are doing and saying these days seems to just defy plain common sense; it seems so illogical.</p>
<p>FLDS LEADER:  But don&#8217;t you see, Susan, that&#8217;s the whole nature of faith &#8212; believing or doing something even if it contradicts your sense of reason!  Do you think it made sense to Noah to build an ark when it wasn&#8217;t raining?  Do you think it made sense to Abraham to have to kill his own son?  But Noah and Abraham defied their &#8220;common sense&#8221;, their &#8220;reason&#8221;, their &#8220;logic&#8221;, and they did exactly what the Lord told them to do even though it seemed not to make any sense at the time.</p>
<p>FLDS GIRL:  Look, I completely understand why we would need to follow a direct commandment from God  like Noah and Abraham received, even if it doesn&#8217;t seem to make sense.  But isn&#8217;t that a very different proposition than the idea that we need to unconditionally follow a man, President Jeffs, even if what he says doesn&#8217;t make sense to us?  Isn&#8217;t that really just asking us to put blind faith in a man?</p>
<p>FLDS LEADER:  No, Susan, that&#8217;s not asking you to put faith in a man because God is at the head of this FLDS Church.  I so testify to you.  Unconditionally obeying President Jeffs is not putting your faith in man; it&#8217;s putting your faith in God!</p>
<p>FLDS GIRL:  Well, I&#8217;m sorry, but that just doesn&#8217;t make sense to me either.  It seems like asking me to unconditionally obey President Jeffs and the Brethren is asking me to put my faith in man.</p>
<p>FLDS LEADER: Susan, I feel impressed to  warn you that the eternal fate of your soul is at stake here, so let me get down to the bottom line.  Susan, this whole life is really just a test to see if we will do everything the Lord requires of us, yes, even if it contradicts our &#8220;logic&#8221; and &#8220;reason&#8221;.  And you need to understand that President Jeffs and the Brethren are the only ones on Earth who have the authority to tell us what the Lord requires.  So by obeying them, you are demonstrating the faith that God requires of us.  And in fact, the more illogical the Brethren&#8217;s actions or teachings seem to you, the more faith you are demonstrating to God when you obey them!</p>
<p>FLDS GIRL:  So it seems you&#8217;re telling me to ignore my sense of reason.</p>
<p>FLDS LEADER:  Well, Susan, that&#8217;s precisely what true faith requires!</p>
<p>FLDS GIRL:  But why would God give us reason and then require us to forsake it?</p>
<p>FLDS LEADER:  Well, I guess that&#8217;s a question we&#8217;re just going to have to wait until the next life to understand.</p>
<p>CONCLUSION</p>
<p>To be clear, the point of the fictional dialogue above is to illustrate how scripture and doctrine can be misinterpreted and misapplied to preach a false version of faith that can be probably found amongst most religions, churches, and denominations &#8212; an unquestioning faith; a faith that requires us to ignore reason; a faith that demands unconditional obedience to leaders because of their claimed divine authority.  And the problem with that unreasoned faith is that it can lead people to embrace all manner of falsehood and evil by convincing devout believers in any church that the status quo established by their leaders must not be questioned, must not be challenged, must always be right, and must always be followed, no matter how unreasonable it may be.</p>
<p>NOTES:</p>
<p>[1]  The full quote is as follows:  “[God] would be glad to send angels to communicate further to this people, but there is no room to receive it, consequently, He cannot come and dwell with you. <em>There is a further reason: we are not capacitated to throw off in one day all our traditions, and our prepossessed feelings and notions</em>, but have to do it little by little. It is a gradual process, advancing from one step to another; and <em>as we layoff our false traditions and foolish notions, we receive more and more light</em>, and thus we grow in grace; and if we continue so to grow we shall be prepared eventually to receive the Son of Man, and that is what we are after.” (Journal of Discourses 2:309-318).</p>
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		<slash:comments>31</slash:comments>
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		<title>Big Love -Big News</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/03/10/big-love-big-news/</link>
		<comments>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/03/10/big-love-big-news/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Mar 2009 18:15:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
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		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=4483</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The only time I have seen Big Love is on a transatlantic flight back home to Salt Lake.  My initial thoughts were how amazing to have a church just like ours (almost) right in our back door and no one seems to know of it, as they keep it fairly discreet on the show. From what I saw these Josephites seem to be very similar (i.e. Family Prayer, FHE, Family Council, even similar programs and auxiliaries).  They even seemed to act like Mormons I grew up with. Since there was a split of Josephites from the Brighamites, wouldn’t most of these branches have similar temple ceremonies to ours?  If so shouldn’t they be the ones who are offended, not the Brighamites? Big Love episode draws criticism from LDS Church Before the first season of the HBO series Big Love aired more than two years ago, the show&#8217;s creator and HBO assured the Church that the series wouldn&#8217;t be about Mormons. Here Big Love Series to Show Rites from LDS Temples SALT LAKE CITY (ABC 4 News) &#8211; The HBO series &#8220;Big Love&#8221; will show its version of temple rites belonging to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  The [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/big-love.bmp"><img class="alignnone size-medium wp-image-4484" src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/big-love.bmp" alt="" width="241" height="200" /></a><span id="more-4483"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The only time I have seen Big Love is on a transatlantic flight back home to Salt Lake.  My initial thoughts were how amazing to have a church just like ours (almost) right in our back door and no one seems to know of it, as they keep it fairly discreet on the show.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">From what I saw these Josephites seem to be very similar (i.e. Family Prayer, FHE, Family Council, even similar programs and auxiliaries).  They even seemed to act like Mormons I grew up with.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Since there was a split of Josephites from the Brighamites, wouldn’t most of these branches have similar temple ceremonies to ours?  If so shouldn’t they be the ones who are offended, not the Brighamites?</p>
<h2>Big Love episode draws criticism from LDS Church</h2>
<p>Before the first season of the HBO series Big Love aired more than two years ago, the show&#8217;s creator and HBO assured the Church that the series wouldn&#8217;t be about Mormons.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_11874222">Here</a></p>
<h2>Big Love Series to Show Rites from LDS Temples</h2>
<p class="MsoNormal">SALT LAKE CITY (ABC 4 News) &#8211; The HBO series &#8220;Big Love&#8221; will show its version of temple rites belonging to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  The episode is scheduled to air Sunday, March 15.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="http://www.abc4.com/content/news/top%20stories/story/Big-Love-Series-to-Show-Rites-from-LDS-Temples/jLosV5DOFEGbruoG8RRbxQ.cspx?rss=20">Here</a></p>
<h2>‘Big Love&#8217;s&#8217; promise to show LDS temple rituals has many crying foul</h2>
<p class="MsoNormal">Richard Cowan, a BYU professor of church history and doctrine, said:  &#8221;It isn&#8217;t something that we want to keep away from everyone who isn&#8217;t a member of our faith, but rather something we would like to share with those who are personally and spiritually prepared to appreciate it.&#8221;</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&amp;sid=5803281">Here</a></p>
<h2>&#8216;Big Love&#8217; prompts LDS Church response and analysis</h2>
<p class="MsoNormal">Certainly church members are offended when their most sacred practices are misrepresented or presented without context or understanding.  Last week some church members began e-mail chains calling for cancellations of subscriptions to AOL, which (like HBO) is owned by Time Warner.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="http://www.mormontimes.com/around_church/general_authority/?id=6649">Here</a></p>
<p><span style="&quot;Times New Roman&quot;;">Please discuss anything and everything.<br />
</span></p>
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		<slash:comments>33</slash:comments>
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		<title>President looks at church history with fresh eyes</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/10/26/president-looks-at-church-history-with-fresh-eyes/</link>
		<comments>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/10/26/president-looks-at-church-history-with-fresh-eyes/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Oct 2008 06:05:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[book of mormon]]></category>
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		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=2585</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[While I was much more than casually aware of church history previously, since becoming president of the church I have engaged in an extensive study of our story. I have explored books and articles from a wide spectrum of scholars, authors, and publishers, ranging from the faithful to the skeptical and in between. Truth has nothing to fear from scrutiny. During recent decades there has been a mounting wave of added information as religious historians have gained access to more source material and have written with increasing frankness about various topics. Also, in the past few years, the media spotlight—including several high-profile television series—has been turned on to Latter Day Saint history because of the Mitt Romney campaign for the U.S. Presidency and the disturbing activities of LDS fundamentalist groups. Because of my exploration of various credible works, and probing discussions with historians, some of my previously held notions have been challenged and adjusted in the face of additional knowledge. The “apologetic” approach to church history—presenting our story in as favorable a light as possible—is not sufficient for the journey ahead. That approach does not evidence the integrity that must be fundamental to our witness and ministry. . . . [...]]]></description>
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<p class="MsoNormal">While I was much more than casually aware of church history previously, since becoming president of the church I have engaged in an extensive study of our story. I have explored books and articles from a wide spectrum of scholars, authors, and publishers, ranging from the faithful to the skeptical and in between. Truth has nothing to fear from scrutiny.<br />
<span id="more-2585"></span><br />
During recent decades there has been a mounting wave of added information as religious historians have gained access to more source material and have written with increasing frankness about various topics. Also, in the past few years, the media spotlight—including several high-profile television series—has been turned on to Latter Day Saint history because of the Mitt Romney campaign for the U.S. Presidency and the disturbing activities of LDS fundamentalist groups.</p>
<p>Because of my exploration of various credible works, and probing discussions with historians, some of my previously held notions have been challenged and adjusted in the face of additional knowledge. The “apologetic” approach to church history—presenting our story in as favorable a light as possible—is not sufficient for the journey ahead. That approach does not evidence the integrity that must be fundamental to our witness and ministry.
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="postbody">President Stephen M. Veazey </span><a href="http://www.cofchrist.org/OurFaith/history.asp">here</a></p>
<p><a href="http://www.cofchrist.org/OurFaith/history.asp"><br />
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<ol>
<li>Do you think Pres Monson and our First Presidency have done the same as <span class="postbody">President Stephen M. Veazey</span> have and explored books and articles from a wide spectrum of scholars, authors, and publishers, ranging from the faithful to the skeptical and in between?</li>
<li>Do you feel we believe Truth has nothing to fear from scrutiny?</li>
<li>The “apologetic” approach to church history—presenting our story in as favorable a light as possible—is not sufficient for the journey ahead. Would you agree with that?</li>
<li>Do you think will start moving to more of a pastoral approach described in<span> </span>Richard Bushman recent CES seminar?<a href="http://mormonmatters.org//www.lifeongoldplates.com/2008/08/bushmans-introduction-to-joseph-smith.html">here</a></li>
</ol>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="postbody">Please discuss</span></p>
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		<title>Brainwashed?:  Polygamists &amp; Terrorists</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/06/11/brainwashed-polygamists-terrorists/</link>
		<comments>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/06/11/brainwashed-polygamists-terrorists/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jun 2008 19:20:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Hawkgrrrl</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Anti-Mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Asides]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[children]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Discrimination]]></category>
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		<category><![CDATA[obedience]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[politics]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[polygamy]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[questioning]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[religion]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[thought]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[adults]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[age limits]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[age of accountability]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[brainwash]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[child soldier]]></category>
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		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=563</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Are teens who practice polygamy devout or brainwashed?  Are teen terrorists devout or brainwashed?  When is a teen old enough to be held accountable for crimes, but not old enough to make his or her own life decisions? An article in Newsweek this week poses these questions.  What is the real age of accountability?  Are age limits arbitrary?  The article compares two recent cases:  YFZ Ranch raid and Omar Khadr. Adults treated as children.  The article states that the actions of the Texas CPS were based on assumptions that didn&#8217;t hold up in court:  1) the original complaint call was a hoax, 2) the assumption of the TCPS was that the beliefs of the FLDS were inherently dangerous (the court failed to uphold this), and 3) the belief that the polygamous women were too young to consent (15 of 31 were legal adults, one as old as 27).  The court found that being &#8221;sober, conservative, religious and married . . . doesn&#8217;t necessarily make them victims of abuse.&#8221;  A case of treating adults like children. Children treated like adults.  The article contrasts this with the case of Omar Khadr, a 21-year old Canadian facing a life sentence who has been held at Guantanamo Bay for [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Are teens who practice polygamy devout or brainwashed?  Are teen terrorists devout or brainwashed?  When is a teen old enough to be held accountable for crimes, but not old enough to make his or her own life decisions?<span id="more-563"></span></p>
<p>An <a href="http://http//www.newsweek.com/id/140489">article </a>in Newsweek this week poses these questions.  What is the real age of accountability?  Are age limits arbitrary?  The article compares two recent cases:  YFZ Ranch raid and Omar Khadr.</p>
<ul>
<li><strong><img class="alignright" style="float: right;" src="http://166.70.44.68/blogs/trent/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/dscn0235-1.jpg" alt="" width="130" height="101" />Adults treated as children</strong>.  The article states that the actions of the Texas CPS were based on assumptions that didn&#8217;t hold up in court:  1) the original complaint call was a hoax, 2) the assumption of the TCPS was that the beliefs of the FLDS were inherently dangerous (the court failed to uphold this), and 3) the belief that the polygamous women were too young to consent (15 of 31 were legal adults, one as old as 27).  The court found that being &#8221;sober, conservative, religious and married . . . doesn&#8217;t necessarily make them victims of abuse.&#8221;  A case of treating adults like children.</li>
<li><strong><img class="alignright" style="float: right;" src="http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2006/02/21/omarkhadr_narrowweb__300x314,0.jpg" alt="" width="137" height="135" />Children treated like adults</strong>.  The article contrasts this with the case of Omar Khadr, a 21-year old Canadian facing a life sentence who has been held at Guantanamo Bay for six years.  At age 15, he was charged with throwing a grenade in a fire fight in Afghanistan, killing one U.S. Soldier.  His lawyers state that, as a child soldier, he should be protected and rehabilitated as a victim.  The judge in the case has overruled that argument and stated that he will be tried as an adult.</li>
</ul>
<p>In this example, both cases have completely different outcomes.  Is this evidence that the courts are lenient on pacifists but harsh on warmongers (make love, not war)?  Or is this evidence of protecting our own (fanatical Americans) but not protecting others (fanatical Canadian citizen/Islamic terrorist)?</p>
<p>Both cases are examples of what average Americans might call adults brainwashing teens to accomplish their own religious ends.  Or you could argue they are both cases of young adults with fanatical devotion for a religious cause.</p>
<p>The term &#8220;brainwashing&#8221; is liberally applied these days and experts question whether religious brainwashing is even a reality.  The term originated in 1950 to explain why so many GIs defected in the Korean war after being POWs.  They were subjected to psychological torture such as sleep deprivation to systematically break down their feelings of autonomy and individuality.  Efforts to prove religious groups, cults or NRMs have conducted &#8220;brainwashing&#8221; or persuasive coersion have been largely fruitless at explaining the shift in fundamental beliefs for converts.  With children, there is no actual shift in belief since they are raised to believe this way.  So, beliefs we don&#8217;t like (Jihad and polygamy) are brainwashing, but beliefs we like &#8220;being a [insert political party of choice]&#8221; or &#8220;the American dream&#8221; are not brainwashing.</p>
<p>The term adult is also difficult to define.  Various societies consider the age of adulthood to be as low as 13 or as high as 21.  The majority would put that age between 15 and 18.  What are the characteristics of adults?  A list proposed on Wikipedia includes the following characteristics: </p>
<li style="padding-left: 30px;"><strong>Self-control</strong> &#8211; restraint, emotional control.</li>
<li style="padding-left: 30px;"><strong>Stability</strong> &#8211; stable personality, strength.</li>
<li style="padding-left: 30px;"><strong>Independence</strong> &#8211; ability to self-regulate.</li>
<li style="padding-left: 30px;"><strong>Seriousness</strong> &#8211; ability to deal with life in a serious manner.</li>
<li style="padding-left: 30px;"><strong>Responsibility</strong> &#8211; accountability, commitment and reliability.</li>
<li style="padding-left: 30px;"><strong>Method/Tact</strong> &#8211; ability to think ahead and plan for the future, patience.</li>
<li style="padding-left: 30px;"><strong>Endurance</strong> &#8211; ability and willingness to cope with difficulties that present themselves.</li>
<li style="padding-left: 30px;"><strong>Experience</strong> &#8211; breadth of mind, understanding.</li>
<li style="padding-left: 30px;"><strong>Objectivity</strong> &#8211; perspective and realism.</li>
<li style="padding-left: 30px;"><strong>Decision making capability</strong> &#8211; as all of the above correspond to making proper decisions.</li>
<p>Based on this list, I&#8217;m not sure I know any adults.  Maybe Ray.  In any case, each item on this list is more of a subjective continuum than a yes/no.</p>
<p>So, what do you think?  What is an adult and what is brainwashing?  Are polygamist teens and terrorist teens unable to make their own choices?  Are they 1) victims or 2) perpetrators or 3) adults responsible for their choices?  Were they brainwashed by their religions or have they made a choice?  How can we legitimately tell the difference?  At what age should people be held accountable and considered adults?  Do we overprotect those we see as victims while we underprotect those we see as victimizers?  Discuss.</p>
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		<title>MormonNews: The End Of Temple Work As We Know It?</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/05/22/mormonnews-the-end-of-temple-work-as-we-know-it/</link>
		<comments>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/05/22/mormonnews-the-end-of-temple-work-as-we-know-it/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 May 2008 18:30:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>John Nilsson</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[FLDS]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[inter-faith]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[plan of salvation]]></category>
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		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=517</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[According to the Utah Catholic bishop, John Wester, the Vatican has issued a directive to not release parish records to LDS researchers (who then use them to perform vicarious ordinances. As I understand it, these records have been a major source of names for LDS temple work. What impact will this decision have on LDS temple work? Slow it down? Eventually force temple patrons to bring their own names every time they go to the temple (like was standard practice a century ago)? Jewish groups acting on behalf of Holocaust victims were the first group to stir controversy about this, now the Vatican. The issue is not just the revulsion of these entities at LDS proxy work, but also the increased visibility this gives the practice of LDS temple work every time one of these news stories break. How long will it be before other groups follow this trend and shut down access? What kind of a &#8220;backlog&#8221; of temple-ready names exists to keep temple work going should the world tell us to leave their ancestors alone? And how would you feel if the FLDS, say, began doing temple work for YOUR grandparents? Speaking of the FLDS, the Texas appeals [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>According to the Utah Catholic bishop, John Wester, <a href="http://www.kutv.com/content/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=6a9425a0-5251-4742-9eed-94b1445006f6&amp;rss=991" target="_blank">the Vatican has issued a directive to not release parish records to LDS researchers</a> (who then use them to perform vicarious ordinances.  As I understand it, these records have been a major source of names for LDS temple work.</p>
<p>What impact will this decision have on LDS temple work?  Slow it down?  Eventually force temple patrons to bring their own names every time they go to the temple (like was standard practice a century ago)?  Jewish groups acting on behalf of Holocaust victims were the first group  to stir controversy about this, now the Vatican.  The issue is not just the revulsion of these entities at LDS proxy work, but also the increased visibility this gives the practice of LDS temple work every time one of these news stories break.  How long will it be before other groups follow this trend and shut down access?  What kind of a &#8220;backlog&#8221; of temple-ready names exists to keep temple work going should the world tell us to leave their ancestors alone?</p>
<p>And how would you feel if the FLDS, say, began doing temple work for YOUR grandparents? Speaking of the FLDS, the <a href="http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/05/22/flds.ruling/index.html" target="_blank">Texas appeals court has just ruled </a>the state had no right to seize FLDS children&#8230;Discuss either topic!</p>
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