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	<itunes:subtitle>A weekly podcast exploring Mormon current events, pop culture, politics and spirituality</itunes:subtitle>
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		<title>Reflections on Mormon May Day</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2010/05/21/reflections-on-mormon-may-day/</link>
		<comments>http://mormonmatters.org/2010/05/21/reflections-on-mormon-may-day/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 May 2010 18:33:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>guest</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Government]]></category>
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		<category><![CDATA[liberal]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[politics]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[homosexuality]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Mormons]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[tolerance]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=11337</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[by Jason B. (Mormon May Day was an international response to recent statements by latter-day McCarthyist Glenn Beck that social justice was a code word for communism; and that anyone involved in a church that preached such a deceptive perversion of the Gospel should leave their congregation and find a new place to worship. Participants in Mormon May Day held teach-ins and discussions around the topic of Social Justice and the Gospel on May 1, participated in a fast, and then bore testimony on May 2 in wards around the country.) Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion! Wo be unto him that crieth: all is Well! (2 Nephi 28:24-25) The reactions to Mormon May Day were overwhelmingly positive. People came out of the wood work to tell us how much they appreciated our efforts to assert a place in Mormon culture for liberals and radicals. Many people told me that had they known that there were people like us in the church they may not have left. While it became crystal clear to me that our work is sorely needed in the church, some members reacted with sincere curiosity. They had never noticed politics in [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>by Jason B.</p>
<p>(<a href="http://www.mormonmayday.org/">Mormon May Day </a>was an international response to recent statements by latter-day McCarthyist Glenn Beck that social justice was a code word for communism; and that anyone involved in a church that preached such a deceptive perversion of the Gospel should leave their congregation and find a new place to worship. Participants in Mormon May Day held teach-ins and discussions around the topic of Social Justice and the Gospel on May 1, participated in a fast, and then bore testimony on May 2 in wards around the country.)<span id="more-11337"></span></p>
<p><em> </em></p>
<p><em>Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion! Wo be unto him that crieth: all is Well!</em> (2 Nephi 28:24-25)</p>
<p>The reactions to Mormon May Day were overwhelmingly positive. People came out of the wood work to tell us how much they appreciated our efforts to assert a place in Mormon culture for liberals and radicals. Many people told me that had they known that there were people like us in the church they may not have left. While it became crystal clear to me that our work is sorely needed in the church, some members reacted with sincere curiosity. They had never noticed politics in church, and indeed many consider themselves ‘apolitical’. With these brothers and sisters in mind, the purpose of this post is to better articulate a deep frustration that many liberal and radical Mormons feel when they attend church. That frustration boils down to the fact that moral issues of the political right are constructed as moral absolutes, while the moral issues of the political left are either dismissed as misguided or minimized to the agency of an individual’s personal spirituality. This usually means they don’t get much air time in general conference, Sunday School or Priesthood/Relief Society. This leaves us with a problem: many Mormons feel that their interpretations of the Gospel are not valid because they do not fall within the contemporary orbit of conservative morality.</p>
<p>Here is what I mean.</p>
<p><em>Homosexuality and Protecting the Family </em></p>
<p>In the 2008 debate over gay marriage in California, the LDS church actively campaigned all over the state to defeat a California Supreme court ruling that legalized gay marriage. For many of us from California who sympathize with gay rights, we were horrified as testimony meetings and Sunday school lessons were filled to the brim with election slogans about protecting the family. The family, the rhetoric goes, is under attack from those who would expand the definition of marriage and it is our sacred duty to defeat this most recent affront. Using the civil rights struggles of our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters as a measure of the strength of families is an excellent example of how a seemingly politically neutral and core aspect of the Gospel such as the family is framed in the moral language of the political right.</p>
<p>Now, this is not a polemical retort against the erosion of family values. I too believe that the family is being weakened, but my worldview causes me to look for the cause in a very different place than those on the political right. It seems to me that if we want to talk seriously about protecting the family as the basic institution of society, then perhaps we should start with the historical impact that free market capitalism has had on the family over the past 200 years. The massive upheavals that occurred in Europe and America—which are being repeated all over the globe through the globalization of production—are a result of the need for a landless and mobile labor force. It is easy for former CEOs and bootstrap entrepreneurs to wax moral about spending more time with our families while their workers scrape by on 60 hours a week. In this sense France is a more family friendly country than ours! Their workers fought for and won generous vacations with pay, universal healthcare, childcare, a 35 work week and living wages. If we are serious about protecting the family why not address issues that allow families to be together more rather than scapegoat the gay community.</p>
<p><em>Socialism </em></p>
<p>Glenn Beck follows a long line of Mormon cold warriors. But depending on who you talk to, Mormon radicals may agree with the sentiment that we need to limit the government’s role in our lives. Indeed, many of us at the Mormon Worker would like to eliminate it completely in favor of United Order style communes in every watershed.</p>
<p>While there is a spectrum of opinions on the Mormon left with respect to the proper role of the federal government, many of use see the words of 5 time socialist presidential candidate Eugene Debs as representing the true spirit of socialism; not as an absolutist political ideology but as a powerful call to live as Christ taught. While being tried for sedition, Debs, in response to his charges defiantly said:</p>
<p>“I am opposing a social order in which it is possible for one man who does absolutely nothing that is useful to amass a fortune of hundreds of millions of dollars, while millions of men and women who work all the days of their lives secure barely enough for a wretched existence. Your Honor, years ago I recognized my kinship with all living beings, and I made up my mind then that I was not one bit better than the meanest on earth. I said then, and I say now, that while there is a lower class, I am in it; and while there is a criminal element, I am of it; and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free” (Sept. 18<sup>th</sup> 1918).</p>
<p>Deb’s stirring words are unmistakably inspired by the Sermon on the Mount, and when some of us proclaim sympathy with socialism, that is what we mean. None of us are suggesting that the Gospel is socialist, but there are certainly legitimate overlaps in the call for a classless society and an end to exploitation and Christ’s message of equality and love. Rather than mythologizing the cold war in pre-mortal rhetoric about free agency which implies God’s divine sanction of capitalism, perhaps we should take the words of Catholic Worker founder, Peter Maurin more seriously:</p>
<p>“Christianity has nothing to do</p>
<p>with either modern capitalism</p>
<p>or modern Communism,</p>
<p>for Christianity has</p>
<p>a capitalism of its own</p>
<p>and a communism of its own.</p>
<p>Modern capitalism</p>
<p>is based on property without responsibility,</p>
<p>while Christian capitalism is based on property with responsibility.</p>
<p>Modern communism</p>
<p>is based on poverty through force</p>
<p>while Christian communism</p>
<p>is based on poverty through choice.</p>
<p>For a Christian,</p>
<p>voluntary poverty is the ideal</p>
<p>as exemplified by St. Francis of Assisi,</p>
<p>while private property</p>
<p>is not an absolute right, but a gift</p>
<p>which as such can not be wasted,</p>
<p>but must be administered</p>
<p>for the benefit of God’s children.”</p>
<p><em>Ecology </em></p>
<p>We learn in D &amp; C 58:16-20 that the good things of the earth are made to “please the eye, gladden the heart” in addition to the more utilitarian “food and raiment”; and despite being granted full access to the abundance of the earth, we are not to use it “to excess, neither by extortion.” It is significant to me that Joseph Smith’s vision took place in a forest which to us is now a Sacred Grove. What an inspiring refutation of the colonial Christian ambivalence toward nature and the “dark woods” to begin the last dispensation in a grove of trees; a stark rebuke to the Western world when that grove was filled with light on that morning in 1820. Soon thereafter nature would be reenchanted by the transcendentalist, wilderness and environmental movements.</p>
<p>For these reasons, it seems clear that the environmental crisis is a <em>moral</em> crisis; perhaps the most serious our civilization has ever faced. It will not be solved through legislation or adjustments to our consumption habits. So, when I attend church and don’t hear it addressed with unequivocal condemnation I feel confused. Isn’t our duty to care for the earth and each other as important as protecting the family, paying tithing, reading the scriptures, avoiding rated-R movies, family prayer, etc.? While policy prescriptions may be bitterly partisan, the fact remains that our stewardship over the earth’s bounty is a moral responsibility one that deserves the full attention of moral language.</p>
<p><em>War</em></p>
<p>Another area where liberal and radical members feel silenced and marginalized is around war and violence. Many church leaders grew up during an era of honorable war; of self-sacrifice for a national cause. However, many in the rising generation feel much more skeptical of leaders who proclaim just war. The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan simply do not fit the narrative of an honorable war in defense of freedom. For many of us they were geopolitical maneuvering that had more to do with oil than bringing freedom to the downtrodden. Many of us were not only critical of the war, but participated in protests and other actions against the war. These actions were carried out not in spite of our religious conviction but because of them and are driven by the admonition in D&amp;C 98:16 to “renounce war and proclaim peace.”</p>
<p>The invasion of Iraq especially, mirrors the kind of preemptive and unrighteous war that is harshly condemned in the Book of Mormon. For many of us, being a pacifist, or nearly so, is a core moral issue and to hear members of the church denounce those who would oppose the war as unpatriotic or worse bad Mormons is disconcerting. Let us be consistently pro-life; valuing not just the lives of unborn children, but also the lives of Iraqi men, women and children caught in the middle of an unjust and illegal occupation.</p>
<p><em>Healthcare </em></p>
<p>In Mosiah 4 we read that all the prayer and pious action in world mean nothing if we do not have charity and act upon it. One item on an oft repeated list of charitable to-do’s is “visiting the sick and administering to their relief.” We live in a country where over 40 million people do not have health insurance. Regardless of who you believe should administer healthcare, this is a massive failure on our part to live up to this Gospel commandment. Why, when we read that scripture do we not see the faces of those who cannot afford healthcare? We have allowed the polarizing rhetoric of big vs. small government obscure our duty to the sick.</p>
<p><strong>God’s Politics </strong></p>
<p>Christianity is supposed to transcend <em>party</em> politics, but that does not mean the Gospel is apolitical. Christ did not join Judas and the Zealots or the Essenes in the desert, but he adamantly critiqued the Sadducees and Pharisees for their blatant hypocrisy and priest craft. And while communism may very well have been Satan’s counterfeit, his real genius may have been setting it up as a straw man so that capitalism could slip in the back door. The Gospel is a worldview, not a hobby and I reject any neat delineation of my life as a citizen and my life as a Latter-day Saint. By decontextualizing the scriptures and church history and de-politicizing religious-right moral issues, contemporary Latter-day Saints have (whether they intended to or not) marginalized those who would interpret the Gospel through a distinct political worldview. To argue that the way the Gospel in talked about in church is apolitical or neutral is naïve and disingenuous at best.</p>
<p>Now, let me be clear, I am not calling for an extension of the cultural divide between American liberals and conservatives into the church; as should be clear I am opposed to using the Gospel to justify <em>any</em> political ideology. But as reverend Jim Wallis points out in his amazing book <em>God’s Politics</em>, the separation of church and state, does not mean the separation of our faith from our public life. As Wallis points out, there needs to be a coming together of moral issues on the left and right framed in religious language. This kind of politics, God’s Politics, “would not be an endless argument between personal and social responsibility, but a weaving of the two together in search of the common good” (76). While, it has been my purpose to expose the political bias of some seemingly apolitical aspects of Mormon culture, I am in agreement with Wallis that the Gospel is not republican or democrat, but a call to radical charity that includes both individual ethics and social justice.</p>
<p>Mormon May Day was meant to bring attention to a problem within Mormon culture. It was not about confrontation or criticism of Church leaders. When liberal and radical Mormons leave the Church we all loose a unique and valid perspective on the Gospel. I am pleading with Mormon culture to recognize many of the above issues as equally important to our salvation. I am also calling on liberal and radical Mormons to step out of their comfort zones and begin to open our mouths in church settings on topics that we feel passionately about and which are central to Christ’s message.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<slash:comments>34</slash:comments>
		</item>
		<item>
		<title>A Non-Historical View of the Book of Mormon</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2010/05/15/some-members-want-to-openly-support-a-non-historical-view-of-the-book-of-mormon/</link>
		<comments>http://mormonmatters.org/2010/05/15/some-members-want-to-openly-support-a-non-historical-view-of-the-book-of-mormon/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 May 2010 06:04:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Anti-Mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[apostasy]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[apostles]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Bible]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Bloggernacle]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[book of mormon]]></category>
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		<category><![CDATA[church]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[community of christ]]></category>
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		<category><![CDATA[fear]]></category>
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		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=11020</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Perhaps the time has come in the church to recognize that some members want to openly espouse a non historical view of the Book of Mormon? My daughter Bethany and her friend Clare have recently gone to the Community of Christ Church. They enjoyed it and said the members were very open and friendly but the church at least here in the UK didn’t seem anything like our Brighamite version of the church. I understand that many of their high ranking members don’t view the book of Mormon as historical. Some members feel it&#8217;s historical; some feel it’s inspired, and some would like to see it jettisoned from the canon of scripture. I thought it was quite courageous of their leaders to consult with historians and look at the facts as they see them and to seek and follow what they felt was God’s will, doing all of this by common consent with the members in their church. One of their members Wayne Ham did a summary report (below) called Problems in Interpreting the Book of Mormon as History! But before you read his report please take the following quiz: [poll id="171"] [poll id="172"] [poll id="173"] [poll id="174"] [poll id="175"] Please [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Book-of-mormon.jpg"><img class="alignnone size-full wp-image-11021" src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Book-of-mormon.jpg" alt="" width="349" height="253" /></a></p>
<p>Perhaps the time has come in the church to recognize that some members want to openly espouse a non historical view of the Book of Mormon?<span id="more-11020"></span></p>
<p>My daughter Bethany and her friend Clare have recently gone to the Community of Christ Church. They enjoyed it and said the members were very open and friendly but the church at least here in the UK didn’t seem anything like our Brighamite version of the church.</p>
<p>I understand that many of their high ranking members don’t view the book of Mormon as historical. Some members feel it&#8217;s historical; some feel it’s inspired, and some would like to see it jettisoned from the canon of scripture.</p>
<p>I thought it was quite courageous of their leaders to consult with historians and look at the facts as they see them and to seek and follow what they felt was God’s will, doing all of this by common consent with the members in their church.</p>
<p>One of their members Wayne Ham did a summary report (below) called <em>Problems in Interpreting the Book of Mormon as History!</em> But before you read his report please take the following quiz:</p>
<p>[poll id="171"]</p>
<p>[poll id="172"]</p>
<p>[poll id="173"]</p>
<p>[poll id="174"]</p>
<p>[poll id="175"]</p>
<p>Please read if you can all of Wayne Ham&#8217;s <a href="http://www.thecybercommunity.net/publish/stories.php?story=05/07/02/1025297">Problems in Interpreting the Book of Mormon as History </a>from the Community of  Christ Web Page.  Below are some selections from Ham&#8217;s paper which I highly recommend you read if you have the time:</p>
<blockquote><p>The origin and destiny of the [so-called] &#8220;Red Man&#8221; were among the chief topics for speculation and discussion on the early nineteenth century American frontier. The presence of many Indian burial mounds in the Great Lakes region was a constant source of curiosity for the settlers in that region. In 1823 Ethan Smith, a Vermont pastor, published a book entitled View of the Hebrews: or the Ten Tribes of Israel in America.</p>
<p>Those who received the Book of Mormon from the hands of eager missionaries were urged not only to assent to the narrative as a historical account of the Indians&#8217; ancestory, but also to accept the book as evidence that God had broken the silence of centuries to restore his church to the earth by means of a young prophet. Many of the early Latter Day Saint believers took an all-or-nothing approach.  If the Book of Mormon was true, the religion expounded by its author and proprietor was true also. If the book should ever prove to be false, all validity for the restoration movement would necessarily have to be disclaimed.</p>
<p>The book immediately attained a canonical status in the minds of the Latter Day Saints that made literal acceptance of it as the revelation of God to the ancient Americans a matter of faith. As far as church members were concerned, the book was impervious to any kind of critical investigation and judgment.</p>
<p>As modern historical and textual scholarship in the realm of biblical studies became increasing appreciated and influential at the grassroots level in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, and thus known to some extent to Latter Day Saints, a defensive reaction set in among some church members, resulting in some stiff resistance to allowing the tools of this scholarship to be applied to the church&#8217;s understandings of the Book of Mormon. Thus Book of Mormon studies in the past have been characterized by polemics, apologetics, and amateur archaeological surveys whenever the concern has moved beyond merely exploring the intricate details of the very complex narrative of migrations, wars, and religious revivals among the Book of Mormon peoples.</p>
<p>Because the temper of our times is such that no movement nor institution nor book can forever remain impervious to the searchlight of scholarly inspection, out times demand that all the rudiments of religious faith be subjected to the scrutiny of reason and empirical research.</p>
<p>As the Book of Mormon is examined without any intention solely to amass data to support preconceived notions about it, certain problems concerning traditional understanding of the books stand out. These problems include:</p>
<p>1<strong>. The story of its coming forth</strong>. The actual events culminating in the publication of the book are, as of now, quite irrecoverable in that it is impossible to distill a unified account from all the primary and secondary reports.</p>
<p>2. <strong>Identifying the book&#8217;s narrative with a particular time and space</strong>. Extravagant claims about ancient American archaeology supporting the Book of Mormon have been made. Toltec, Mayan and even Aztec ruins, all of a comparatively late period, have been unfortunately identified with Book of Mormon peoples.</p>
<p>3, <strong>The book&#8217;s propensity for reflecting in detail the religious concerns of the American frontier</strong>. Alexander Campbell in 1831 pointed out that every major theological question of the frontier was covered in the Book of Mormon, including infant baptism, ordination and ministerial authority, the trinity, regeneration, the fall of man, the atonement, transubstantiation, fasting, penance, church government, religious experience, the general resurrection, eternal punishment, and even the burning question of Freemasonry, republican government and the rights of man.</p>
<p>4<strong>. The Christological perspective of the book</strong>. To some students of theology, it would appear that there is a marked incongruity between the Christ Event of the New Testament and the Christ Event of the Book of Mormon.</p>
<p>5. <strong>The book&#8217;s ethical implications, when viewed as universally binding upon all men</strong>. Some Latter Day Saints, in talking of the Book of Mormon as the &#8220;fullness of the gospel&#8221; (D. &amp; C. 17:2), believe that the book reveals the will of God more perfectly than any other resource we possess. Moreover they would assert that the transmission process involved in preserving and bringing forth the book would bypass many of the scribal errors to which the Bible was admittedly vulnerable.</p>
<p>6. <strong>The use of biblical scripture and ideas as sources</strong>. Several sizeable sections of the King James Version of the Bible are found in the Book of Mormon, including twenty-one chapters of Isaiah, the Sermon on the Mount, the Ten Commandments, Malachi 3 and 4, I Corinthians 12:1-11 and Acts 3:22-26. In addition to such full-fledged quotations, the Book of Mormon is replete with short biblical expressions. John Hyde counted 298 biblical snatches from the New Testament alone in the first 428 pages of the first edition of the Book of Mormon.</p>
<p>8<strong>. The matter of Book of Mormon anachronisms</strong>. Those who approach the Book of Mormon with the view of proving it to be essentially what it seems to claim to be–a record of the history of ancient Americans who lived between 2200 BC and AD 400–immediately find themselves having to deal with the problem of anachronisms.</p>
<p>9. <strong>The changes in the Book of Mormon</strong>. While the book itself confesses the possibility of errors, many claims concerning the verbal accuracy of the book have long been made by Book of Mormon adherents. Joseph Smith himself at one time state that &#8220;the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth.&#8221; Modern Microfilm Company of Salt Lake City has recently published a work documenting 3,913 changes in the Book of Mormon since its first printing.</p>
<p><strong>Conclusions.</strong> None of the above problems areas &#8220;disprove&#8221; the Book of Mormon. They do, however, raise some questions about our traditional understandings concerning the book. Perhaps for some church members answers to the questions raised in this article would seem to be readily available. For others, however, quick and easy answers will not solve the dilemma. Perhaps the time has come in the church to recognize that some members want to openly espouse a non-literal view of the Book of Mormon, treating it as a non-historical treatise in much the same manner as modern critics view the books of Jonah, Ruth, Job, and Daniel in the Old Testament. Freed from some of the traditional hang-ups involved with having to accept unquestioningly the historicity of the Book of Mormon, these members could then read the book as a product of the Restoration movement in the nineteenth century, perhaps thus &#8220;enjoying&#8221; this fascinating piece of literature for the very first time.</p></blockquote>
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		<slash:comments>71</slash:comments>
		</item>
		<item>
		<title>Reform Mormonism a Poll</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2010/05/04/reform-mormonism-a-poll/</link>
		<comments>http://mormonmatters.org/2010/05/04/reform-mormonism-a-poll/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 May 2010 14:50:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Charity]]></category>
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		<category><![CDATA[theology]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[thought]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Utah]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=10920</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I have recently come across a group called Reform Mormonisim. I thought their views were interesting and as I mentally answered some of their questions here I was surprised how much of it resonated with me. What I did feel in the end after reading much of their thoughts and material is why bother!! Why not become a nontheist Unitarian. Is it worth all the effort when there must be other religions very close to the same theology? Hopefully we can get someone from their church to answer that question I have added a poll to this and must apologize to those at Reform Mormonism and to the readers at Mormon Matters in that they are totally paraphrased and maybe (unintentionally )taken out of context. So please go here to see them on their web page. What they believe here Reform Mormonism is a home-based, personal philosophy. A day of rest is held wherever one is at; there are no church services. Reform Mormonism does have special temple ordinances, that are designed to aide a person throughout their life, that are conducted in dedicated temple spaces. Unlike the LDS, they do not perform any temple ordinance for the deceased. Reformed [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Refrorm-mormonism.jpg"><img class="size-full wp-image-10938 alignnone" src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Refrorm-mormonism.jpg" alt="" width="223" height="163" /></a></p>
<p>I have recently come across a group called <a title="Reform  Mormonism" href="http://www.reformmormonism.org/index.html">Reform Mormonisim</a>. I thought their views were interesting and as I mentally answered some of their questions <a href="http://www.reformmormonism.org/lib/youmight.htm">here</a> I was surprised how much of it resonated with me.<span id="more-10920"></span></p>
<p>What I did feel in the end after reading much of their thoughts and material is why bother!! Why not become a nontheist Unitarian. Is it worth all the effort when there must be other religions very close to the same theology? Hopefully we can get someone from their church to answer that question</p>
<p>I have added a poll to this and must apologize to those at Reform Mormonism and to the readers at Mormon Matters in that they are totally paraphrased and maybe (unintentionally )taken out of context. So please go <a href="http://www.reformmormonism.org/lib/youmight.htm">here</a> to see them on their web page.</p>
<p>What they believe <a href="http://www.reformmormonism.org/whatwebelieve.htm">here</a></p>
<p>Reform Mormonism is a home-based, personal philosophy. A day of  rest is       held wherever one is at; there are no church services. Reform  Mormonism       does have special temple ordinances, that are designed to aide a  person       throughout their life, that are conducted in dedicated temple  spaces. Unlike       the LDS, they do not perform any temple ordinance for the deceased.</p>
<p><span style="font-family: Arial">Reformed Mormonism are  individuals who have moved away from organized  religion and have       found peace and satisfaction in concentrating on the important  things in       life. We&#8217;re just like you &#8211; parents, children, brothers, sisters,  friends       and partners. We&#8217;ve settled on a personal philosophy that makes  sense in       the 21st century. It&#8217;s personal,  important, and best of all, it  isn&#8217;t       scary like so many churches these days.</span></p>
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		<title>Radical Retention</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2010/04/02/radical-retention/</link>
		<comments>http://mormonmatters.org/2010/04/02/radical-retention/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Apr 2010 11:14:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>guest</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[diversity]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[liberal]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Mormons]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[politics]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[religion]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[sacrament meeting]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Sermon on the Mount]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[social justice]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Bloggernacle]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Charity]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[church]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=10251</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Our guest poster, Jason M. Brown is a life-long &#8216;Niblian&#8217; Mormon who grew up in Southern California. He served an LDS mission from 2001-2003 in the Dominican Republic, Santiago Mission. He attended Brigham Young University where he studied anthropology and international development. He is currently working on two master&#8217;s degrees at Yale University in Forestry and Theology. Jason is also regular contributor to The Mormon Worker Blog, www.themormonworker.wordpress.com and The Mormon Worker Newspaper, www.themormonworker.org. He can be reached at jason.brown@yale.edu I’ve been kicking this post around in my mind for a while now so it came as no surprise when I found a Gallop Poll article entitled “Mormons Most Conservative Major Religious Group in U.S.” A whopping 59% of active Mormons consider themselves conservative; another 31% moderate, and only 8% liberal. In addition, 16% of active Mormons consider themselves “very” conservative, compared with only 1% as “very” liberal. What surprised and saddened me even more than this disproportionate political bias was not that a majority of Mormons (inside and outside Utah) are conservative, but that 61% percent of “lapsed Mormons” (those who self-identify with Mormonism but seldom attend church meetings) consider themselves liberal or moderate; liberal “lapsed Mormons” are 20% alone. [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>Our guest poster, Jason M. Brown is a life-long &#8216;Niblian&#8217; Mormon who grew up in Southern  California. He served an LDS mission from 2001-2003 in the Dominican  Republic, Santiago Mission. He attended Brigham Young University where  he studied anthropology and international development. He is currently  working on two master&#8217;s degrees at Yale University in Forestry and  Theology. Jason is also regular contributor to The Mormon Worker Blog, </em><a href="http://www.themormonworker.wordpress.com/" target="_blank"><em>www.themormonworker.wordpress.com</em></a><em> and The Mormon Worker Newspaper, </em><a href="http://www.themormonworker.org/" target="_blank"><em>www.themormonworker.org</em></a><em>. He can be reached at <a href="mailto:jason.brown@yale.edu">jason.brown@yale.edu</a></em></p>
<p>I’ve been kicking this post around in my mind for a while now so it came as no surprise when I found a Gallop Poll article entitled “Mormons Most Conservative Major Religious Group in U.S.” A whopping 59% of active Mormons consider themselves conservative; another 31% moderate, and only 8% liberal. In addition, 16% of active Mormons consider themselves “very” conservative, compared with only 1% as “very” liberal.</p>
<p>What surprised and saddened me even more than this disproportionate political bias was not that a majority of Mormons (inside and outside Utah) are conservative, but that 61% percent of “lapsed Mormons” (those who self-identify with Mormonism but seldom attend church meetings) consider themselves liberal or moderate; liberal “lapsed Mormons” are 20% alone. So that means, that 6 out of every ten people who do not regularly attend church, yet maintain ties, do not identify with the Republican Party or the conservative movement. These statistics do not count the thousands of people who have left the church permanently or no longer identify themselves with Mormonism due to feeling isolated, alienated or estranged by the politically conservative majority.</p>
<p>Following are a few personal experiences and ideas about how liberal and radical Mormons can begin to turn the tide on this state of affairs and make the church a safe space for those of us who do not self-identify as conservative or Republican.<span id="more-10251"></span></p>
<p>First and foremost, those of us with radical or liberal worldviews (I myself most closely identify with <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism">libertarian socialism</a>), must not be afraid to speak up, put forth and defend radical and liberal interpretation of the Gospel in our meetings, and actively challenge interpretations that we disagree with. Could it be that the growth of the Mormon “Bloggernacle” in recent years has been a result of those of us too afraid or timid to speak up in Sunday School, Relief Society or Priesthood? Now, for some of us speaking up in church may sound like a daunting task, and indeed depending on who is teaching it can be; there is very seldom much time, and sometimes the topics come with a lot of cultural and historical baggage. Perhaps many of us have not spoken up during church because we fear that it will create contention or that we will be looked down upon. Although I am not exempt from biting my tongue in church, or letting a Republican talking point pass for a Gospel principle, I am almost always pleasantly surprised when I do choose to speak my mind during church meetings.</p>
<p>For example, during the Proposition 8 debate in California I was visiting my hometown in Southern California. I attended church. It happened to be testimony meeting and member after member was getting up to praise the wisdom of the proposition and expound the threats that its failure would present to the Church and the family. As I sat taking this in, my pulse quickened, my heart raced, and before I knew it I was in front of my childhood ward (including the area authority) denouncing the Proposition. I spoke from the heart, and as my voice shook, I declared that as a Christian my primary responsibility was to the Sermon on the Mount and that I believed it to be bad politics to get involved in a civil rights issue which would inevitably put us on the wrong side of justice (again). When the meeting was over, I was mobbed by old friends, scout leaders, Priests’ Quorum advisors, and new members. Many agreed with me, some thought I was crazy, some strongly disagreed with me; but they all expressed loved for me and wanted to thank me for expressing my heartfelt convictions. One woman, who stayed at a distance until all the others were gone, came and with tears in her eyes thanked me. She was a new member, and her son is gay. She had been feeling so alone and conflicted about the church’s involvement in this issue. We talked, hugged, and she left with a smile. On that day I had spoken my mind on a very controversial topic and although many members did not agree with my interpretation of the Gospel, I left the meeting feeling fulfilled and part of a community that loved me.</p>
<p>This is the climate that I know can exist in wards all over the world, but that many of us are afraid to bring about. I tell this story because I strongly believe that there is a place both in the Gospel and the Church for radicals and liberals. We can still be of one heart and one mind while disagreeing on the particulars of interpretation and application of Gospel principles.</p>
<p>Another personal experience: During Sunday School here in New Haven, Connecticut where I currently attend church, we were on the topic of helping the poor. This was a few weeks before President Monson decided to include helping the poor and needy in the now four-fold Church mission. A woman visiting the ward said that she and her husband had worked with homeless people and believed that it was wrong to give them anything because this deprived them of the opportunity to pull themselves up by their boot straps and take personal responsibility for their own bad choices; and besides, any money given to homeless people would inevitably be spent on booze anyway, so why support their immoral habits? Now, I personally have tremendous respect for the appeal to personal responsibility that many of my Republican and conservative friends make when discussing issues of social justice and poverty. However, this sister did not understand what the scriptures plainly teach concerning those who would seek our aid. So, in a calm fashion I raised my hand, and began reading the words of King Benjamin in Mosiah 4.</p>
<p>“17 Perhaps thou shalt say; The man has brought upon himself his misery; therefore I will stay my hand, and will not give unto him of my food, nor impart unto him of my substance that he may not suffer, for his punishments are just—18 But I say unto you, O man, whosoever doeth this the same hath great cause to repent; and except he repenteth of that which he hath done he perisheth forever, and hath no interest in the kingdom of God. 19 For behold, are we not all beggars?&#8230;”</p>
<p>King Benjamin here is uttering a strong condemnation of those of us who would refuse to give of our substance to the poor. However, the sister articulated a very common view in our society that poor people are poor because of bad choices. However, the radical Christ calls us to repentance. If someone asks of us, we must give; even if we can smell the alcohol on their breath. But this is not all. As Joseph Smith makes clear, we are to be actively engaged in a good cause (D &amp; C 58:27), and working toward a society where there are no poor among us (Moses 7:18). Meaning, we are not just to give a regular fast offering, or a couple bucks to the guy outside the supermarket, but actively working toward a society where the structural and root causes of poverty are eliminated. We disagree on the appropriate institutional scale of implementing such a task in society, but nevertheless we are incontrovertible called to the task. The Sermon on the Mount, 3 Nephi, King Benjamin, the D &amp; C, indeed the entire Book of Mormon all contain radical critiques of social inequality, seeking wealth for wealth’s sake and contain numerous admonitions to radical Christ-like love and economic cooperation. Sorry, Brother Beck, but social justice is the essence of the Gospel, and the fact that someone like Glenn Beck can read the same scriptures as me and not see that is appalling.</p>
<p>One might ask if I would simply flip the Gallop Poll statistic for a 60% liberal slant. My simple answer is no; what I really want is to see a healthy proportion of all political and social viewpoints; one that doesn’t automatically exclude social justice, preemptive war, the environment, or helping the poor as Gospel topics because they are too “political” while piously rallying the troops around “moral” issues such as prayer in school, abortion or gay marriage. That is a double standard that is only possible because of a overwhelming <em>politically</em> conservative bias by Church members and hence church programs. I am calling for this because it is in the tension between ideas that truth is found; as Lehi says to Jacob: “For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things, for if it were not so…righteousness could not be brought to pass” (2 Nephi 2:11). A diverse and healthy representation of political and social interpretations of the Gospel will lead us closer to true principles than close-minded political or religious dogmatism.</p>
<p>Brothers and sisters, do not allow conservative politics to pass as neutral theology, it is dishonest at best, and destructive at worst. It is driving good people out of the church and becomes a positive feedback loop: the more conservative the church culture becomes, the less tolerable it is for liberals and radicals. So, to all of you Beck-ites out there, this is our church too and we are not leaving.</p>
<p><strong>Here are a few ideas for shifting Mormon culture: </strong></p>
<ul>
<li>Participate in <strong>Mormon May Day</strong> on May 1-2. See <a href="http://www.mormonmayday.org/">www.mormonmayday.org</a> for more      details in the coming days</li>
</ul>
<ul>
<li>If you haven’t already, read      <em>Approaching Zion</em> by Mormon      scholar Hugh Nibley</li>
</ul>
<ul>
<li>Then, give <em>Approaching Zion</em> as a gift to at      least one person this year</li>
</ul>
<ul>
<li>Begin to compile a list of      your favorite scriptures on social, environmental, and political topics</li>
</ul>
<ul>
<li>Start a discussion group</li>
</ul>
<ul>
<li>Set a personal goal to      make at least one comment in your church classes</li>
</ul>
<ul>
<li>Invite a less active radical      or liberal member to your house for dinner to see if you share similar      views</li>
</ul>
<ul>
<li>Visit <a href="http://www.themormonworker.org/">www.themormonworker.org</a> for a      radical approach to Mormon theology and consider subscribing</li>
</ul>
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		<title>Wired World Views: Preserving the Other&#8217;s Truth</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2010/02/23/wired-world-views-preserving-the-others-truth/</link>
		<comments>http://mormonmatters.org/2010/02/23/wired-world-views-preserving-the-others-truth/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Feb 2010 18:45:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>FireTag</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[diversity]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[general]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Government]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[liberal]]></category>
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		<category><![CDATA[politics]]></category>
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		<category><![CDATA[Morality]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=9891</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In a February 2, 2008, cover story in New Scientist, Jim Giles asked whether political leanings were genetic:

"Across the land, liberals and conservatives are slugging it out, trying to convince each other that their way of thinking is right. They may be wasting their breath."]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In a February 2, 2008, cover story in <span style="text-decoration: underline;">New Scientist</span>, Jim Giles asked whether political leanings were genetic:</p>
<blockquote><p>“…Across the land, liberals and conservatives are slugging it out, trying to convince each other that their way of thinking is right. They may be wasting their breath.</p>
<p>&#8220;According to an emerging idea, political positions are substantially determined by biology and can be stubbornly resistant to reason. &#8216;These views are deep-seated and built into our brains. Trying to persuade someone not to be liberal is like trying to persuade someone not to have brown eyes. We have to rethink persuasion,&#8217; says John Alford, a political scientist at Rice University in Houston, Texas.</p>
<p><span id="more-9891"></span>&#8220;Evidence to support this idea is growing. For example, twin studies suggest that opinions on a long list of issues, from religion in schools to nuclear power and gay rights, have a substantial genetic component. The decision to vote rather than stay at home on election day may also be linked to genes. Neuroscientists have also got in on the act, showing that liberals and conservatives have different patterns of brain activity.”</p></blockquote>
<p>The article goes on to tie genetics to political views through the mechanisms by which genetics influence the formation of basic personality types, which are highly heritable. These, in turn, seem to be readily correlated with modern American political party preferences. (The genetic linkage is not limited to Americans, but other nations express the linkage to policy through different political institutions unique to their cultures.)</p>
<p>According to an existing and well-respected personality model, five basic personality axes can be defined: conscientiousness, openness, extroversion, agreeableness and neuroticism. The latter two seem to have little to do with political orientation, but the other three axes do show strong differences between Liberals and Conservatives.</p>
<p>Conscientious people are defined as being organized, self-disciplined, and responsible, and likely to follow rules. Conscientious people tend to favor conservative political positions and oppose liberal positions.</p>
<p>Open people are defined as anticipating new experiences, seeing change as presenting opportunities rather than problems, and as envisioning the possibilities of the world that might be.  Open people tend to favor liberal positions and oppose conservative positions.</p>
<p>Extroverted people are quick to self-disclose, process information out loud and like to be seen as being busy. Extroverted people also tend to favor liberal positions and oppose conservative ones.</p>
<p>Now, no psychological model can reproduce the complexity of a human being, and the article itself is filled with qualifications and limitations of the various research studies involved. But it ends with a quote that I find very relevant to discussions we&#8217;ve been having on <span style="text-decoration: underline;">Mormon Matters:</span></p>
<blockquote><p>“So the guy at the bar [blog] may never agree with you, but perhaps realizing that can be liberating. &#8216;We spend a lot of energy getting upset with the other side,&#8217; says Alford. &#8216;We often think our opponents are misinformed or stubborn. Accepting that people are born with some of their views changes that&#8217;, Alford points out.<strong> </strong><strong>&#8216;Come to terms with these differences, and you can spend the energy now wasted on persuasion on figuring out ways of accommodating both points of view.”</strong></p></blockquote>
<p>In fact, perhaps God (and/or evolution, if you prefer) designed humanity that way quite intentionally – with separate preferences imparting resistance for society to various “spiritual diseases”. After all, different strains of wheat protect the field from the emergence of a new fungus.</p>
<p>Perhaps, rather than either liberals or conservatives being right or meeting in a middle ground, we actually need to preserve each other to hear truth.</p>
<p>Do we, as spoken of in Genesis and Ether, metaphorically speak to each other with “confounded languages” that prevent communication before it even begins?  And do we also need to pray that our languages “be not confounded”?</p>
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		<title>In the Shadow of the Temple by Guest</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/12/22/in-the-shadow-of-the-temple-by-guest/</link>
		<comments>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/12/22/in-the-shadow-of-the-temple-by-guest/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Dec 2009 14:30:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>guest</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[apologetics]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[apostasy]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[apostles]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[baptism]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Bloggernacle]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[book of mormon]]></category>
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		<category><![CDATA[families]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Folklore]]></category>
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		<category><![CDATA[Happiness]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[historicity]]></category>
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		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=8674</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[A close friend of mine who wishes to remain anonymous recently saw in the shadow of the temple his story follows In October, I was fortunate to attend the Portland, Oregon, screening of the movie, In the Shadow of the Temple. http://www.intheshadowofthetemple.com The screening was hosted by the producers, Karen Di Millia and Dennis Lavery. Prior to the screening Dennis and Karen spoke for 10 minutes and explained how they started this project. After the screening they took questions and answers for roughly 30 minutes. Lavery and DeMillia, who are not&#8211;and never have been&#8211;LDS, originally planned to make a movie about people who had left the religion of their youth. They attended a meeting of the Portland Humanist Society, explained their project, and asked if anyone had such stories they would be willing to share. In the course of discussing the project with members of the society, they were told that who they really needed to talk to was Sue Emmett, who had left the LDS church. After talking with Sue and others with whom she put them in touch, they decided to re-focus their project on the experience of those who have left the LDS church. They did hundreds [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><img class="alignleft size-medium wp-image-8675" src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/Temple-poster-198x300.jpg" alt="Temple poster" width="198" height="300" /></p>
<p>A close friend of mine who wishes to remain anonymous recently saw in the shadow of the temple his story follows</p>
<p>In October, I was fortunate to attend the Portland, Oregon, screening of the movie, In the Shadow of the Temple. <a href="http://www.intheshadowofthetemple.com/">http://www.intheshadowofthetemple.com </a>The screening was hosted by the producers, Karen Di Millia and Dennis Lavery. Prior to the screening Dennis and Karen spoke for 10 minutes and explained how they started this project. After the screening they took questions and answers for roughly 30 minutes.</p>
<p>Lavery and DeMillia, who are not&#8211;and never have been&#8211;LDS, originally planned to make a movie about people who had left the religion of their youth. They attended a meeting of the Portland Humanist Society, explained their project, and asked if anyone had such stories they would be willing to share. In the course of discussing the project with members of the society, they were told that who they really needed to talk to was Sue Emmett, who had left the LDS church. After talking with Sue and others with whom she put them in touch, they decided to re-focus their project on the experience of those who have left the LDS church.<span id="more-8674"></span></p>
<p>They did hundreds of hours of interviews over two years and edited it down to a 55 minute film. The film is very moving&#8211;a tribute to those who shared their stories as well as DeMillia and Lavery&#8217;s videography and editing skills.</p>
<p>About two dozen people appear in interviews in the film. Each story is unique, but a common thread runs throughout them all. All faced a similar rejection by family, friends and community.  Some of those interviewed have left the church. Others no longer believe, but remain active because of family or community pressure. The latter are filmed in shadows, to obscure their identity. The film refers to these people as “Shadow Mormons.” They define &#8220;Shadow Mormons&#8221; as those who privately do not accept the exacting doctrine of the Church, but publicly profess to be true believers. They are in shadow to protect their relationships with family, friends and employers.</p>
<p>Someone commented to me after the film, “That&#8217;s you. You&#8217;re a Shadow Mormon.”</p>
<p>Yes, I&#8217;m a Shadow Mormon. Maybe that&#8217;s why this film hit me so hard. I haven&#8217;t believed in over 20 years – most of my adult life. Yet, during that time I&#8217;ve paid my tithing, gone to the temple, served in bishoprics and high councils and done all the things that were expected of me. Why? Because I am tied to the church by family and community.</p>
<p>The story of &#8220;Grace&#8221; (not her real name) resonated with me because it was so similar to mine. Her pain, and anger, were born of all the energy she has given to a religion that she doesn&#8217;t believe in. Finding out that the Church was not true was like a death experience for her. Like me, she tried following the Church&#8217;s teachings to fast, pray, read the scriptures and yet never felt she received the &#8220;burning in her bosom&#8221; that is promised in the scriptures.</p>
<p>What of the families and communities of these people? What are their stories, their experiences with loved ones who go through a process of losing belief and leaving the church. Only one person who was a family or friend agreed to be interviewed for the film. The believing husband that was interviewed told how he still loved his wife, even though she has left the church. What about the others? Are they embarrassed to say that the Church was more important than their relationship with the person who left?</p>
<p>The saddest stories, to me, were of divorce caused by one spouse believing and the other not believing. Michelle (another woman interviewed in the film) said her heart was broken that her husband would choose the Church over her. He told their marriage therapist that if she had not been Mormon he never would have married her. &#8220;There was more to me than being a Mormon,&#8221; she said.  &#8220;And I thought that there was more to him.&#8221;</p>
<p>The dictionary defines empathy as “the intellectual identification with or vicarious experiencing of the feelings, thoughts, or attitudes of another.” We could all use a little more empathy for those around us. I have had several people tell me, “I can&#8217;t imagine how a person could leave the church.” Either they need a better imagination or they need more empathy.  Maybe they just need to see this film.</p>
<p>One of the questions at the screening&#8211;one that Lavery could not answer&#8211;was, “How do we get the right people to see this film?” Sadly, many members of the church would not even consider it. (It screened in Salt Lake City in October and got almost no media coverage.) The film does not try to de-convert anyone or disparage the doctrine of the church. It doesn&#8217;t assert that someone is right because he or she believes, or that someone else is right because he or she leaves the church. This film is about accepting people regardless of what they believe, and about how we treat those who believe differently than we do. I wish every member of the church could see this film.</p>
<p>Film Trailer: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICbylWK-i2Q&amp;NR=1">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICbylWK-i2Q&amp;NR=1</a><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICbylWK-i2Q&amp;NR=1"></a></p>
<p><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-style: normal;"><span style="font-size: small;"> </span></span><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-style: normal;"><span style="font-size: small;"> </span></span></p>
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		<title>Temple Wedding Petition</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/12/12/temple-wedding-petition/</link>
		<comments>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/12/12/temple-wedding-petition/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Dec 2009 06:02:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
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		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=8492</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[A temple wedding petition to is being circulated to promote love and happiness in the family by changing the church&#8217;s stance on civil marriages preceding temple weddings. The petition requests that the leadership of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints make it acceptable to have a civil marriage ceremony first, if desired, and then giving the couple the necessary time to attend the temple for the sealing ordinance as they do in those countries whose laws require it.  (The petition is not endorsed by Mormon Matters; this information is being shared for discussion as a news item). In the following video which lasts about 2 minutes, Jean talks about the stigma some members may feel if they choose a civil wedding ceremony. The other preseding videos last approximately 2 minutes each. Temple Wedding Petition 3 Here Temple Wedding Petition 1 Here Temple Wedding Petition 2 Here Temple Wedding Petition .org here The actual petition is found here I was raised in a part member family and remember when my brother was married my parents were disappointed that they weren&#8217;t able to go to the temple and see their son get married. It would have been nice for our family [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><img class="alignleft size-medium wp-image-8498" src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/Petition-274x300.jpg" alt="Petition" width="274" height="300" />A temple wedding petition to is being circulated to promote love and happiness in the family by changing the church&#8217;s stance on civil marriages preceding temple weddings. The petition requests that the leadership of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints make it acceptable to have a civil marriage ceremony first, if desired, and then giving the couple the necessary time to attend the temple for the sealing ordinance as they do in those countries whose laws require it.  (The petition is not endorsed by Mormon Matters; this information is being shared for discussion as a news item).</p>
<p>In the following video which lasts about 2 minutes, Jean talks about the stigma some members may feel if they choose a civil wedding ceremony. The other preseding videos last approximately 2 minutes each.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PdS1u8LeJU&amp;NR=1">Temple Wedding Petition 3 Here</a></p>
<p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwEpA-lFsX8&amp;NR=1"><span id="more-8492"></span>Temple Wedding Petition 1 Here</a></p>
<p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xf3JPeT69Lg&amp;NR=1">Temple Wedding Petition 2 Here</a></p>
<p><a href="http://www.templeweddingpetition.org/">Temple Wedding Petition .org here</a></p>
<p>The actual petition is found <a href="http://www.templeweddingpetition.org/enter/4952.html">here</a></p>
<p>I was raised in a part member family and remember when my brother was married my parents were disappointed that they weren&#8217;t able to go to the temple and see their son get married. It would have been nice for our family to have seen it. I wonder if it makes non- members, or those on the fringe, feel excluded from the church and may damper future missionary work with families. I live in England and it&#8217;s the law that there is a civil wedding which usually takes place in the chapel.</p>
<p>Recently a nephew was married and was schedueled to get married in the Salt Lake temple. Because much of the family couldn&#8217;t witness the wedding they decided last minute to have a civil wedding. He and his wife since their marriage enjoy going to the temple but have to wait a year now to be married in the temple.</p>
<p>I wonder if there is a church loophol if you want your non- member family to see your wedding you could get married in America and fly to a country where the church allows civil marriages followed by a temple marriage after?</p>
<p>What are your thoughts and experiences?</p>
<p><span style="color: #ff0000"><strong>Just to make it very clear that there is no advocacy on the part of MM</strong></span>.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PdS1u8LeJU&amp;NR=1"></a></p>
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		<title>Obama and Elvis are cousins</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/07/23/president-obama-and-elvis-are-cousins/</link>
		<comments>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/07/23/president-obama-and-elvis-are-cousins/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Jul 2009 19:20:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
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		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=6507</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[President Barack Obama met with President Monson on Monday in the Oval Office, thanking  President Monson for a thorough history of the first family. President  Monson presented Obama with details of his family&#8217;s genealogy during their first face-to-face meeting. Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, a Nevada Democrat who is Mormon, helped arrange the meeting and joined it. &#8220;I&#8217;m grateful for the genealogical records that they brought with them and am looking forward to reading through the materials with my daughters,&#8221; Obama said in a statement after the meeting. &#8220;It&#8217;s something our family will treasure for years to come.&#8221; Mormon leaders traditionally meet with new presidents and share with them records from the Salt Lake City-based church&#8217;s extensive genealogical records. &#8220;President Obama&#8217;s heritage is rich with examples of leadership, sacrifice and service,&#8221; Monson said in a statement. &#8220;We were very pleased to research his family history and are honored to present it to him today.&#8221; The five leather-bound books detail Obama&#8217;s family history for several generations. Parts of that history were already known, such as his ties to former Republican Vice President Dick Cheney. The two are eighth cousins. Obama is a descendent of Mareen Duvall. The French Huguenot&#8217;s son married [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p style="text-align: center;"><img class="aligncenter size-full wp-image-6627" src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/elvis-presley.jpg" alt="elvis-presley" width="206" height="206" /></p>
<p style="text-align: center;">
<p>President Barack Obama met with President Monson on Monday in the Oval Office, thanking  President Monson for a thorough history of the first family.<span id="more-6507"></span></p>
<p style="text-align: center;"><img class="size-full wp-image-6632 aligncenter" src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/Obama-Reid-Monson1.JPG" alt="Obama Reid Monson" width="255" height="98" /></p>
<p>President  Monson presented Obama with details of his family&#8217;s genealogy during their first face-to-face meeting. Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, a Nevada Democrat who is Mormon, helped arrange the meeting and joined it.</p>
<p style="text-align: center;"><img class="aligncenter size-full wp-image-6519" src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/Obama-and-Elvis1.JPG" alt="Obama and Elvis" width="658" height="302" /></p>
<p>&#8220;I&#8217;m grateful for the genealogical records that they brought with them and am looking forward to reading through the materials with my daughters,&#8221; Obama said in a statement after the meeting. &#8220;It&#8217;s something our family will treasure for years to come.&#8221;</p>
<p>Mormon leaders traditionally meet with new presidents and share with them records from the Salt Lake City-based church&#8217;s extensive genealogical records.</p>
<p>&#8220;President Obama&#8217;s heritage is rich with examples of leadership, sacrifice and service,&#8221; Monson said in a statement. &#8220;We were very pleased to research his family history and are honored to present it to him today.&#8221;</p>
<p>The five leather-bound books detail Obama&#8217;s family history for several generations. Parts of that history were already known, such as his ties to former Republican Vice President Dick Cheney. The two are eighth cousins.</p>
<p>Obama is a descendent of Mareen Duvall. The French Huguenot&#8217;s son married the granddaughter of a Richard Cheney, who arrived in Maryland in the late 1650s from England.</p>
<p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Thoughts Questions?</span></p>
<p>Notes</p>
<p>1.<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_of_Barack_Obama"> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_of_Barack_Obama</a></p>
<p>2.<a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/20/AR2009072002068.html"> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/20/AR2009072002068.html</a></p>
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		<title>Adam and Eve: the First TBM &amp; NOM</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/06/29/what-adam-eve-teach-us-about-tbms-and-noms/</link>
		<comments>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/06/29/what-adam-eve-teach-us-about-tbms-and-noms/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jun 2009 09:00:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[accountability]]></category>
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		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=5787</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[There have been several attempts over the years to categorize Mormon &#8220;belief-styles&#8221;: Orthodox Mormon versus Liberal Mormon, Iron Rod Mormon versus Liahona Mormon, and so on. In the online world of LDS blogs commonly called &#8220;the Bloggernacle&#8221;, Mormons are often categorized as being TBMs (True Believing Mormons) or NOMs (New Order Mormons). One evening when my wife and I had the opportunity to reflect on the timeless story of Adam and Eve, it struck me that their different responses to God&#8217;s commandments, and to Lucifer&#8217;s &#8220;temptation&#8221;, perfectly exemplified the different mindsets of TBMs and NOMs, and symbolically portrayed the age-old struggle between Orthodox and Liberal in any faith. And as I meditated on their dramatic dialog with Lucifer, with each other, and with God, it donned on me that Adam and Eve were the perfect TBM-NOM couple. For those of you who are unfamiliar with the TBM and NOM labels, allow me to briefly explain. Generally speaking, the mantra of TBMs is &#8220;follow the Prophet&#8221; while the mantra of NOMs is &#8220;follow your conscience.&#8221; This is not to say that TBMs don&#8217;t believe in following their conscience, nor that NOMs don&#8217;t believe in following the Prophet. Rather, the main difference [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><img class="alignright size-full wp-image-5933" title="Adam-and-Eve-Garden" src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/Adam-and-Eve-Garden.jpg" alt="Adam-and-Eve-Garden" width="168" height="239" />There have been several attempts over the years to categorize Mormon &#8220;belief-styles&#8221;: Orthodox Mormon versus Liberal Mormon, Iron Rod Mormon versus Liahona Mormon, and so on.  In the online world of LDS blogs commonly called &#8220;the Bloggernacle&#8221;, Mormons are often categorized as being TBMs (True Believing Mormons) or NOMs (New Order Mormons).</p>
<p>One evening when my wife and I had the opportunity to reflect on the timeless story of Adam and Eve, it struck me that their different responses to God&#8217;s commandments, and to Lucifer&#8217;s &#8220;temptation&#8221;, perfectly exemplified the different mindsets of TBMs and NOMs, and symbolically portrayed the age-old struggle between Orthodox and Liberal in any faith. And as I meditated on their dramatic dialog with Lucifer, with each other, and with God, it donned on me that Adam and Eve were the perfect TBM-NOM couple.</p>
<p><span id="more-5787"></span></p>
<p>For those of you who are unfamiliar with the TBM and NOM labels, allow me to briefly explain.  Generally speaking, the mantra of TBMs is &#8220;follow the Prophet&#8221; while the mantra of NOMs is &#8220;follow your conscience.&#8221;  This is not to say that TBMs don&#8217;t believe in following their conscience, nor that NOMs don&#8217;t believe in following the Prophet.  Rather, the main difference between TBMs and NOMs relates to who they believe holds the &#8220;trump card&#8221; in situations where their personal views differ from Church leaders&#8217; views.  In such cases, TBMs typically believe they must yield to the authority and judgment of Church leaders, while NOMs typically believe they must follow their conscience even at the expense of disobeying Church leaders.  This deference to authority by TBMs, and deference to personal conviction by NOMs, is typically an outgrowth of their divergent views about Church history.  TBMs <em>truly believe </em>the Church&#8217;s official historical narrative (which supports Church leaders&#8217; exclusive claim to priesthood authority and their special status as Prophets, Seers, and Revelators), while NOMs disbelieve or seriously doubt the Church&#8217;s official history (and therefore seek a <em>new order</em> or approach that gleans all the goodness Mormonism has to offer while pruning away the doctrines and practices that don&#8217;t bear fruit for them).   These divergent views about Church history are usually accompanied by differing views about the nature of prophets and apostles.  TBMs typically view prophets and apostles as authoritative guides who &#8220;will never lead us astray&#8221; in spiritual, temporal, and even political affairs, while NOMs believe that even prophets and apostles unavoidably &#8220;see through a glass darkly&#8221; when it comes to discerning God&#8217;s will, and may therefore occasionally lead us astray despite their best and most sincere intentions &#8212; hence NOMs&#8217; inclination to rely ultimately on their own convictions.</p>
<p>Because TBMs typically view Church history and prophetic accuracy as clear-cut, black-and-white matters, they typically view obedience to Church leaders as a simple choice between good and evil.  By contrast, NOMs&#8217; murky view of Church history and prophetic discernment causes them to view obedience to authority as a complicated challenge where one must constantly navigate through innumerable &#8220;gray areas&#8221; of inconsistency and ambiguity, continually confronting the dilemma of choosing between the lesser of two evils, or the greater of two goods.</p>
<p>With that generalized description of TBMs and NOMs in mind, let&#8217;s examine how Adam and Eve exemplified these two different approaches.</p>
<p><em><strong>Adam&#8217;s &#8220;TBM Response&#8221; to Lucifer&#8217;s Suggestion to Eat the Forbidden Fruit</strong></em></p>
<p>Adam&#8217;s response to Lucifer when he suggests that Adam eat the forbidden fruit reflects a typical TBM mindset.  When Lucifer suggests that Adam eat the forbidden fruit, Adam&#8217;s has an instant, knee-jerk rejection.  With almost child-like disbelief that Lucifer would even dare suggest that Adam break the rules, Adam responds to Lucifer that because God told him not to eat the fruit, he would not eat it.</p>
<p>Adam&#8217;s response to Lucifer exemplifies the typical TBM mindset where all proposed actions are screened to determine whether they would conflict with any pronouncement by Authority, and if so, they are immediately rejected.  Adam&#8217;s almost-automated thought process resembles that of a computer that refuses to do X  simply because it was pre-programmed <em>not to do X</em>.  Adam&#8217;s response to Lucifer demonstrates that he does not condition his obedience on his <em>understanding</em> or <em>agreeing with</em> God&#8217;s rationale for forbidding him from eating the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge; the mere fact that God has forbidden it is enough to persuade Adam not to do it.</p>
<p>Of equal significance is what Adam does <em>not </em>do when Lucifer suggests he eat the forbidden fruit.   He does not carefully ponder Lucifer&#8217;s proposal before deciding to reject it; he does not weigh the pro&#8217;s and con&#8217;s of eating the forbidden fruit or consider how doing so might fit into God&#8217;s larger plan.  Nor does Adam even consider the possibility that eating the forbidden fruit might actually be <em>necessary</em> to fulfill God&#8217;s other commandments.  In addition, Adam does not engage in any dialog with Lucifer before deciding to quickly brush aside his suggestion to eat the forbidden fruit; Adam is clearly not interested in learning the rationale behind Lucifer&#8217;s suggestion.  The mere fact that Lucifer is suggesting he do something that would violate one of God&#8217;s commandments is enough to cause Adam to completely distrust and discount Lucifer&#8217;s proposal.</p>
<p>In addition, it is interesting to note that when Lucifer tempted Adam to eat the forbidden fruit, he did so with the enticement that it would make Adam &#8220;<em>wise&#8221;</em>.  Adam&#8217;s instant rejection of Lucifer&#8217;s offer to become wise through unapproved means demonstrates Adam&#8217;s absolute trust in Authority; it displays Adam&#8217;s confidence that if there is something important to know, God will reveal it to him in due time, and that he therefore need not go behind God&#8217;s back and obtain wisdom from alternative sources.</p>
<p>Although Adam&#8217;s TBM approach is admirable for the absolute trust and loyalty to God that it displays,  it is sobering to recognize that Adam&#8217;s unquestioning and absolute obedience &#8211;if not tempered by Eve&#8211; would have ultimately prevented their spiritual development and unwittingly foiled God&#8217;s plan for all mankind.  But to be fair to Adam and his like-minded TBMs, we can&#8217;t really blame them for taking God and his Prophets seriously when they speak.  Just as nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition, <em>nobody </em>expects God to tell us, whether personally or through his authorized representatives, <em>not to do </em>something that is actually <em>necessary</em> for our eternal progression.</p>
<p><em><strong>Eve&#8217;s &#8220;NOM Response&#8221; to Lucifer&#8217;s Suggestion to Eat the Forbidden Fruit</strong></em></p>
<p>Eve&#8217;s response to Lucifer&#8217;s suggestion to eat the forbidden fruit is the polar opposite of Adam&#8217;s.  Rather than immediately rebuffing Satan, she actually engages in dialog with the enemy of righteousness.  The notable fact that Eve does not immediately dismiss Lucifer&#8217;s suggestion to break God&#8217;s commandment seems to indicate that: (1) Eve&#8217;s mind is at least open to the possibility that God&#8217;s commandments must sometimes be broken; and (2) she must rely on her own judgment to determine whether, when, and how she should obey, rather than absolutely and unquestioningly obeying all commandments at all times.</p>
<p>When Lucifer suggests that Eve eat the forbidden fruit for the purpose of gaining knowledge, Eve apparently sees some merit in his unorthodox proposal.  Apparently recognizing that knowledge of good and evil is a necessary part of her eternal progression, Eve considers Lucifer&#8217;s proposal further by asking whether disobeying God and eating the forbidden fruit is the only way to obtain that knowledge. It seems here that, unlike Adam, Eve intuits the concept of &#8220;necessary evil&#8221; &#8212; situations where we must break one of God&#8217;s laws in order to obey a higher law or accomplish a greater purpose.  In such cases, technical disobedience to lesser laws enables obedience to higher laws &#8212; although the Adams of the Church (TBMs) may interpret such measured disobedience as just plain rebellion at worst, or a lukewarm commitment to God at best.</p>
<p>When Lucifer assures Eve there is no other way to obtain knowledge than by disobeying God&#8217;s commandment and partaking of the forbidden fruit, Eve believes Lucifer and partakes.  Of course, Eve&#8217;s decision to eat the forbidden fruit could be seen as incredibly gullible and foolish.  After all, how could she trust that Lucifer was telling her the truth when he said there was no other way to obtain knowledge?  And how could she use Lucifer&#8217;s assurance as a basis to disregard God&#8217;s clear and direct command not to eat the forbidden fruit?  Accordingly, Mother Eve&#8217;s act of disobedience has been viewed by many as the Original Sin for which she and all mankind have been deservedly punished.</p>
<p>But LDS leaders have taught that Mother Eve should be lauded and revered as a heroine of mankind for her decision to disobey God, not chastised and vilified as a disobedient rebel.  As Elder Dallin H. Oaks has explained:</p>
<blockquote><p><img class="alignright size-full wp-image-6055" title="Expulsion" src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/Expulsion4.jpg" alt="Expulsion" width="216" height="302" />When Adam and Eve received the first commandment, they were in a transitional state, no longer in the spirit world but with physical bodies not yet subject to death and not yet capable of procreation. . . .</p>
<p>For reasons that have not been revealed, this transition, or “fall,” could not happen without a transgression—an exercise of moral agency amounting to a willful breaking of a law (see <a class="scriptureRef" onclick="newWindow('http://scriptures.lds.org/moses/6//59#59')" href="http://scriptures.lds.org/moses/6/59#59" target="contentWindow">Moses 6:59</a>). This would be a planned offense, a formality to serve an eternal purpose. . . .</p>
<p>It was Eve who first transgressed the limits of Eden in order to initiate the conditions of mortality. Her act, whatever its nature, was formally <strong><em>a transgression but eternally a glorious necessity </em></strong>to open the doorway toward eternal life. . . .</p>
<p>Some Christians condemn Eve for her act, concluding that she and her daughters are somehow flawed by it. Not the Latter-day Saints! Informed by revelation, <strong><em>we celebrate Eve’s act and honor her wisdom and courage</em></strong> in the great episode called the Fall. (Dallin H. Oaks, “‘The Great Plan of Happiness’,” Ensign, Nov 1993, 72.)</p></blockquote>
<p>Is it possible that one of the reasons God required a &#8220;willful breaking of a law&#8221; in Eden was to teach mankind the paradoxical principle that we sometimes need to disobey ecclesiastical authority and break &#8220;the rules&#8221; to fulfill God&#8217;s greater purposes for our existence?  When I consider Brigham Young&#8217;s words: &#8220;I am fearful they [Church members] settle down in a state of blind self-security, <strong><em>trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a</em></strong> <em><strong>reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation</strong></em>,&#8221; I wonder, specifically what &#8220;purposes of God in [our] salvation&#8221; are &#8220;thwart[ed]&#8221; by &#8220;a reckless confidence&#8221; in our Church leaders? In light of the LDS doctrine that God&#8217;s purpose is to help us become like him, does Brigham Young&#8217;s statement mean that it is actually <em><span style="font-style: normal;">un-Godlike</span><strong> </strong></em>to give unquestioning, absolute Adam-like obedience to our ecclesiastical authorities?  Was he advocating a more examined, Eve-like approach to decision-making that recognizes sometimes disobedience is paradoxically necessary to accomplish God&#8217;s greater purposes?</p>
<p><em><strong>Adam&#8217;s Redeeming Love</strong></em></p>
<p><img class="alignright size-full wp-image-6053" title="Bela_Klimkovics_Adam_and_Eve_300" src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/Bela_Klimkovics_Adam_and_Eve_3006.jpg" alt="Bela_Klimkovics_Adam_and_Eve_300" width="216" height="316" />Regardless of what people may think of Adam&#8217;s initial failure to recognize the wisdom of eating the forbidden fruit, his loving response to Eve when she informs him of her disobedience and inevitable expulsion from Eden more than redeems him. When Eve informs Adam of her disobedience to God, his choice is a stark one: become separated from Eve and remain innocent and uncompromisingly obedient in a sheltered paradise, or stay with Eve by joining in her disobedience and expulsion. Adam&#8217;s willingness to endure disapproval, chastisement, and exile to remain with Eve demonstrated that his love for her exceeded his concern for his own comfort, safety, and approval.  By recognizing that the greatest good was to stay together with Eve, and that the greatest evil was to be separated from her, Adam demonstrated he ultimately understood what the Gospel is truly all about.</p>
<p><em><strong>Adam the Head and Eve the Neck: Both Members of the Body of Christ</strong><br />
</em></p>
<p>When I shared these thoughts with my wife after separately reflecting on the Adam and Eve story, she responded:  &#8220;Those are interesting observations, but there&#8217;s one big problem with your theory: even though it was Eve who made the right decision, Adam was given stewardship over her.&#8221;  And my wife was right.  God&#8217;s decision to give Adam stewardship over Eve is another puzzle in an ancient story already filled with paradox.  After all, if it was Eve whose &#8220;wisdom and courage&#8221; made humankind&#8217;s existence possible as Elder Oaks has explained, and if it was Adam who was too slow to figure out something as quickly as Eve, then why not just put Eve in charge?</p>
<p>My response to my wife&#8217;s valid observation was along the following lines:</p>
<blockquote><p>You&#8217;re right that it seems unfair that Adam was put in charge when it was Eve&#8217;s wisdom and courage that led to the right decision and the right result, but that&#8217;s exactly how it works in the Church today too.  Although the Adams of the Church are put in charge, it&#8217;s the Eve&#8217;s of the Church that ultimately set the Church&#8217;s course.  Just about every major change in Church policy and practice has been preceded by a chorus of Eves pleading with the Adams in charge to implement a change of course.  For example, Lowell Bennion publicly disagreed with the Church&#8217;s priesthood ban long before 1978 and was fired from his CES job as a result of his &#8220;rebellious&#8221; views.  But when the Church abandoned the priesthood ban in 1978, Elder McConkie acknowledged to a conference of CES instructors that he and other prophets and apostles had previously spoken with &#8220;limited understanding&#8221; when they had supported the priesthood ban.  So in effect, there you had an Adam of the Church acknowledging that the Eves of the Church had been right all along.  So it&#8217;s like the mother said in <em>My Big Fat Greek Wedding</em>: the man may be the <em>head</em> of the family, but the woman is the <em>neck</em>, and she turns the head in whatever direction she wants.</p></blockquote>
<p>In light of the lessons we learn from Adam and Eve&#8217;s divergent approaches to deferring to authority versus relying on personal judgment, perhaps TBMs and NOMs can show greater appreciation for one another.  As the Apostle Paul said, we are all &#8220;the body of Christ, and members in particular.&#8221; (Cor. 12:27)  Hopefully, none of us will ever be guilty of saying to another member of the body of Christ: &#8220;I have no need of thee.&#8221;  (Cor. 12:21.)  Hopefully, the Adams of the Church (TBM&#8217;s) can recognize the valuable role that the Eve&#8217;s in the Church (NOM&#8217;s) play in moving us all closer to a correct understanding of God&#8217;s will, even if occasionally it appears their calls for change seem to be rebellion, disobedience, or disrespect for authority.  As the Apostle Paul taught, we must show proper respect to all members of the body of Christ, and particularly those members that seem less honorable: &#8220;those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour.&#8221;  (Cor. 12:23.)</p>
<p>Likewise, hopefully the Eves of the Church can be patient and take hope in the understanding that the Adams of the Church have good motives: they want to obey God, they want to do what is right, and they want to protect and preserve the truths God has given us in times past.  Although their role as guardians of truth causes them to view any proposed change of course with great suspicion, they do ultimately come to recognize the wisdom of the course changes proposed by the Eves of the Church, and on a timetable that, although not swift enough for some, hopefully occurs before large numbers of members of the body of Christ decide to amputate one another.</p>
<p>So here&#8217;s to Father Adam and Mother Eve&#8217;s opposing but complementary approaches to learning, to life, and to love.</p>
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		<title>The consumer model of religion &#8212; A look at a BCC post</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/05/30/the-consumer-model-of-religion-a-look-at-a-bcc-post/</link>
		<comments>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/05/30/the-consumer-model-of-religion-a-look-at-a-bcc-post/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 May 2009 08:41:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Andrew S</dc:creator>
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		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=5532</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I was reading BCC the other day, and I came across this post that just seemed like this tremendous threat to me. I know John C had nothing in mind and really, I&#8217;m just writing this for the melodrama, but as an ex-mormon atheist, it seemed to hit close to home. John just had it out for those militant atheists, but I guess they do enough to deserve some of it. I wanted to make a qualification and&#8230;perhaps&#8230;a defense&#8230;of what he lambastes as a &#8220;consumer model&#8221; of religion&#8230;especially since recently on my blog, I&#8217;ve been talking about the need to find one&#8217;s philosophical &#8220;fit&#8221; (and others have written about similar issues). Part of me wants to summarize John&#8217;s main points. The other part (perhaps that militant atheist one) wants me to tell you all to not be lazy and read that BCC post (the first link &#8212; it&#8217;s good) [partially because I'll probably botch things up in a summary and partially because I will make this post too long if I summarize here.]I like his general framework. For some/many people, their belief is jump started by spiritual experience. I liken this to &#8220;faith,&#8221; and I, like John, think it is [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was reading BCC the other day, and I came across <a href="http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/05/28/the-consumer-model-of-religion-and-why-it-is-stupid/">this post that just seemed like this tremendous threat to me</a>. I know John C had nothing in mind and really, I&#8217;m just writing this for the melodrama, but as an ex-mormon atheist, it seemed to hit close to home. John just had it out for those militant atheists, but I guess they do enough to deserve some of it.</p>
<p>I wanted to make a qualification and&#8230;perhaps&#8230;a defense&#8230;of what he lambastes as a &#8220;consumer model&#8221; of religion&#8230;especially since recently on my blog, I&#8217;ve been talking about <a href="http://irresistibledisgrace.wordpress.com/">the need to find one&#8217;s philosophical &#8220;fit&#8221;</a> (and <a href="http://byzantium.wordpress.com/2009/05/27/i-have-always-been-a-pagan/">others have written</a> about <a href="http://www.blakeclan.org/jon/greenoasis/2009/05/27/mormon-me-vs-the-infidel/">similar issues</a>).</p>
<p>Part of me wants to summarize John&#8217;s main points. The other part (perhaps that militant atheist one) wants me to tell you all to not be lazy and read that BCC post (the first link &#8212; it&#8217;s good) [partially because I'll probably botch things up in a summary and partially because I will make this post too long if I summarize here.]<span id="more-5532"></span>I like his general framework. For some/many people, their belief is jump started by spiritual experience. I liken this to &#8220;faith,&#8221; and I, like John, think it is unchosen. We diverge, though, because I think this trait is something of an inclination &#8212; so I think it <em>remains</em> unchosen, but John supposes that the choice to ignore or rationalize an initial spiritual experience gives us the option to choose faith (or not) after the initial opportunity. I disagree, because I believe that faith is the inclination that reaches to the core of certain people &#8212; so the rationalization or rejection would not do much but create discomfort within a person from their denial (but, in the same way, someone with true doubt would be just as uncomfortable trying to believe when he <em>doesn&#8217;t</em>.)</p>
<p>So, continuing&#8230;the reason John has to set this apart is because he&#8217;s talking about a diarist who has beliefs that put him at odds with the church in several places. And, I guess some people questioned why the diarist would remain even though he noticeably had several ideological differences from the church. The answer seemed obvious to John and the diarist &#8212; he still had <em>faith</em> and religions just don&#8217;t work that way.</p>
<p>The answer seems obvious to me that if the guy does indeed have faith (which he does), then of course he should stay. Cool.</p>
<p>But John continues with an interesting analysis&#8230;he classifies a popular misunderstanding of religion as being something like shopping. You shop for things that fit you, things that you like. If a religion is inconvenient or potentially offensive, find a new one. And that, John says, is <em>stupid</em>. This consumer model of religion leads to people just validating their current beliefs and actions and not progressing.</p>
<p>Eee. So, here&#8217;s my beef. I place a premium on people discovering what resonates within themselves. I <em>do</em> believe in a consumer model of religion. But&#8230;I disagree in the way religions should be chosen and in the implications of this choice.</p>
<p>I think the criteria we all should use is not the nuts or bolts of particular religions necessarily&#8230;but rather a more holistic approach that takes into consideration our inclinations. It goes back to the idea of faith (or doubt) and of knowing yourself well enough to know what &#8220;fits.&#8221; The diarist should stay because he finds a <em>fit</em> between his faith and his positions. This doesn&#8217;t mean the church is for everyone, or that believing in a certain way is for everyone.</p>
<p>So, in this case, it appears that even with a consumer model of religion, you can have room for growth&#8230;but then again, I think that is the case everywhere. There are infinite possibilities for growth because what resonates with you &#8212; whether it is faith of some sort or a lack thereof &#8212; doesn&#8217;t automatically equate with where you currently are, so really, what we are doing is coming to grips with who we want to develop into and what our fits are. Even if you like the path you currently are on, you can still work to radically improve that position.</p>
<p>&#8220;What&#8217;s your point, Andrew S?&#8221; you may be asking. Meanwhile, I lost 37% of you when I said &#8220;ex-mormon atheist.&#8221; (And hopefully not more than that since then).</p>
<p>My point is&#8230;we need a sensible way to deal. When we confront personal challenges, which are the ones we should work through and stay with (to learn and grow), and which are ones we should avoid? It&#8217;s easy to say, &#8220;Everyone should be Mormon and should be Mormon in a very specific way,&#8221; and perhaps many truly believe that is the best policy, but I think we can each think of people who have suffer greatly because they are trying to believe in what they have heard is the &#8220;right way,&#8221; but in the process, they are running themselves into the ground by constantly denying their true feelings. However, as John noted, it may be just as easy for the other side to say, &#8220;Well, if you can&#8217;t believe everything, you should abandon everything,&#8221; but this is just as extreme and does not take into consideration that people may not want to abandon a faith they do have just because of rough spots.</p>
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		<title>The Problem with Tolerance</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/05/19/the-problem-with-tolerance/</link>
		<comments>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/05/19/the-problem-with-tolerance/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 May 2009 06:00:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Hawkgrrrl</dc:creator>
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		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=5140</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The church has a history of high level leaders making sweeping pronouncements that are later deemed incorrect, speculative, or unauthorized, yet in each case, church leaders are reluctant to make public correction of those presumptions.  This tolerance sometimes results in dogmatic voices flourishing, drowning out those same tolerant voices that have graciously granted them access to the open mic. This problem is similar to the problem of freedom of speech.  Do you only allow freedom of speech until someone says something you don&#8217;t like?  Those with less dogmatic viewpoints are also less likely to condemn the sweeping pronouncements of others for the same reason they don&#8217;t make them.  They may be more self-critical and more reluctant to express their opinions when those opinions will affect others. Here are a few examples of this problem (many of these are included in the book David O. McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism): Bruce R. McConkie&#8217;s Mormon Doctrine.  This was published without prior authorization from the FP under the most presumptuous title imaginable.  While Pres. McKay was highly incensed over it, requiring two apostles to research and find over 1000 errors in the book, no public correction was made other than to [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p style="text-align: left;">The church has a history of high level leaders making sweeping pronouncements that are later deemed incorrect, speculative, or unauthorized, yet in each case, church leaders are reluctant to make public correction of those presumptions.  This tolerance sometimes results in dogmatic voices flourishing, drowning out those same tolerant voices that have graciously granted them access to the open mic.<span id="more-5140"></span></p>
<p style="text-align: left;">This problem is similar to the problem of freedom of speech.  Do you only allow freedom of speech until someone says something you don&#8217;t like?  Those with less dogmatic viewpoints are also less likely to condemn the sweeping pronouncements of others for the same reason they don&#8217;t make them.  They may be more self-critical and more reluctant to express their opinions when those opinions will affect others.</p>
<p style="text-align: left;">Here are a few examples of this problem (many of these are included in the book David O. McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism):</p>
<ul style="text-align: left;">
<li><strong>Bruce R. McConkie&#8217;s <em>Mormon Doctrine</em></strong>.  This was published without prior authorization from the FP under the most presumptuous title imaginable.  While Pres. McKay was highly incensed over it, requiring two apostles to research and find over 1000 errors in the book, no public correction was made other than to tell BRM that the book should not be republished.  BRM accepted the private correction, but repeatedly requested that the book be allowed to be republished.  Eventually, in his dotage, Pres. McKay gave a sufficiently cryptic response that BRM took it as license to republish.  Among the worst criticisms of the book:
<ul>
<li>It referred to the Roman Catholic church as the Church of the Devil, stating that this was what was meant by the Book of Mormon&#8217;s &#8220;harlot of the earth&#8221; reference.  It was so harsh that it caused RC Bishop Hunt, a friend to Pres. McKay, to come to Pres. McKay with tears in his eyes asking if this was what McKay thought of him.</li>
<li>It propounded the inaccurate &#8220;Cain&#8221; doctrine (borrowed from Protestantism) as justification of the Priesthood Ban.</li>
<li>It prohibited all caffeinated beverages from the Word of Wisdom (despite Pres. McKay&#8217;s own personal affinity for Coke).</li>
<li>And many many more . . .</li>
</ul>
</li>
<li><strong>Ezra Taft Benson&#8217;s association with the John Birch Society</strong>.  As an apostle, Benson was staunchly anti-communist.  He quickly became enamored with the newly formed John Birch society and was repeatedly courted by founder Robert Welch to join the society and to use his apostolic influence to encourage other Mormons to join.  Pres. McKay refused to consent to both Benson&#8217;s membership and endorsement of the John Birch Society, but Benson persisted and even resorted to trickery to try to convince Pres. McKay to be featured on the cover of the monthly magazine of the society.  Again, no public disavowal of the organization or Benson&#8217;s tactics was ever made, and many members were led to believe that the church endorsed the John Birch Society.</li>
<li><strong>Joseph Fielding Smith&#8217;s <em>Man, His Origin and Destiny</em></strong>.  The book states authoritatively (yet without authority) that evolution is false, a matter of Joseph Fielding Smith&#8217;s personal speculation.  David O. McKay specifically said he believed evolution was a true scientific principle; yet no corrective action was taken to diminish the book&#8217;s significance.</li>
<li><strong>Paul H. Dunn&#8217;s stories</strong>.  While not dogmatic, they are riddled with hyperbolic glurge that purports to &#8220;prove&#8221; the church is true, which can be faith demoting when individuals discover the stories are fictional.</li>
<li><strong>The Priesthood Ban</strong>.  This is a pretty basic one.  While David O. McKay was the first to acknowledge this was a policy (therefore &#8220;of man&#8221;) and not a doctrine (no originating revelation), there was no public repudiation of the rampant racist rhetoric of the time until much later when the ban had been removed, and the rhetoric had continued in justification.  In fact, this is a great example of a time when Bruce R. McConkie (much later) fell on the sword publicly, apologetically stating that the things they had said were all wrong.</li>
<li><strong>Spencer W. Kimball&#8217;s <em>Miracle of Forgiveness</em></strong>.  This was written in 1969 and contains errors that are potentially harmful to those who read it if they are in a vulnerable emotional state or prone to take things far too seriously, such as:
<ul>
<li>It&#8217;s better to be killed than to be a rape victim.  This also implies that those who don&#8217;t die as a victim of a rape attempt were somehow willing participants, a particularly disturbing notion for both victims of rape and children of incest.</li>
<li>It states that wet dreams are sinful, implying that they are voluntary and not biological.</li>
<li>It has been criticized alternately as too harsh (by internal critics) and as un-Christian (by external critics) in diminishing the power of the atonement to redeem by focusing on human efforts.</li>
</ul>
</li>
</ul>
<p style="text-align: left;">In the above cases, the standing prophet was unwilling to make public correction, instead preferring to hope that the inaccurate information would die out on its own over time.  There was a desire not to reduce the influence of the General Authority who had erred in speculation through public correction.  The actual effect seems to have been that the tolerance and generosity of the standing prophets has caused these individuals&#8217; voices to be the loudest of all, to the point that their doctrines and interpretations are mainstream or orthodox over the more tolerant religious views.</p>
<p style="text-align: left;">Is this the way of the world?  Do the loudest voices always win?  Are the loudest voices always the most harsh and dogmatic?  Was it always this way, or is this simply the current trend?  Or is this how we learn humility?  Is this a human condition that is just a natural byproduct of all organizations or a particularly Mormon trait?  Is this an example of those who act (those who prefer to take charge and define requirements for others) vs. those who are acted upon (those who prefer to &#8220;go with the flow,&#8221; or be passive &amp; tolerant)?</p>
<p style="text-align: left;">Discuss.</p>
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		<title>Interfaith International British DJ</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/05/13/interfaith-international-british-dj-paul-brooks-proverbs-98-phoenix-fm/</link>
		<comments>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/05/13/interfaith-international-british-dj-paul-brooks-proverbs-98-phoenix-fm/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 May 2009 06:01:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
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		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=5210</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[OK Paul technically isn&#8217;t exactly an international DJ, not unless you consider that you can listen to his interviews on line. He&#8217;s a returned missionary and member of the Grays Ward in the Romford Stake Essex England.  Paul got the show after being a presenter at Hospital Radio Chelmsford for a year and chased a local station for airtime: &#8220;When I was asked to join Phoenix FM the station manager warned me that radio presenting wasn&#8217;t all easy but in fact involved a lot of voluntary service too.  I responded that I was a missionary in France for 2 years for the church and was used to giving service to others, as well as being actively involved in the church weekly.  The station manager was intrigued by this and I was invited to the station to explain more about my religious beliefs and the voluntary service I had done in France.  I was then offered the chance to begin a brand new religious show once a week that they had been wanting to start but couldn&#8217;t find anyone with the religious background to do it.  I put together the idea for a chat show where he would bring in local [...]]]></description>
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<p>OK Paul technically isn&#8217;t exactly an international DJ, not unless you consider that you can listen to his interviews on line.</p>
<p><span id="more-5210"></span></p>
<p><span style="&quot;Times New Roman&quot;;">He&#8217;s a returned missionary and member of the Grays Ward in the Romford Stake Essex England.  Paul got<span class="moz-txt-citetags"> </span>the show after being a presenter at Hospital Radio Chelmsford for a<span class="moz-txt-citetags"> </span>year and chased a local station for airtime:</span></p>
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<p><span style="&quot;Times New Roman&quot;;">&#8220;When I was asked to join Phoenix FM the station manager warned me that<span class="moz-txt-citetags"> </span>radio presenting wasn&#8217;t all easy but in fact involved a lot of<span class="moz-txt-citetags"> </span>voluntary service too.  I responded that I was a missionary in France<span class="moz-txt-citetags"> </span>for 2 years for the church and was used to giving service to others, as well as being actively involved in the church weekly.  The station <span class="moz-txt-citetags"><span> </span></span>manager was intrigued by this and I was invited to the station to explain more about my religious beliefs and the voluntary service I<span class="moz-txt-citetags"> </span>had done in France.  I was then offered the chance to begin a brand new religious show once a week that they had been wanting to start but couldn&#8217;t find anyone with the religious background to do it.  I put together the idea for a chat show where he would bring in local religious leaders and ask them about their beliefs on air and their views on current issues.&#8221;</span></p>
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<p><a href="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/sceintologist.jpg"><img class="alignnone size-medium wp-image-5222" src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/sceintologist.jpg" alt="" /></a></p>
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<p>Mark Pinchin and Ian Clarkson from the <strong>Church of Scientology</strong> &#8211; Listen   <a href="http://www.phoenixfm.com/upload/Mark%20P%20250309.mp3">here</a></p>
<p><strong>Highlights:</strong></p>
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<p style="-18pt;"><span style="Symbol;"><span style="none;"> </span></span><!--[endif]-->10 million members around the world.<span style="Symbol;"><span style="none;"> </span></span><!--[endif]--><span> </span>Their anti-drug program “Say no to drugs say yes to life”. <span style="Symbol;"><span style="none;"> </span></span><!--[endif]-->Human rights educational programme and other great work they do in the community.   We discussed the 8 dynamics<span style="Symbol;">, the<span style="none;"> </span></span><!--[endif]-->founder of the church L. Ronald Hubbard and<span style="Symbol;"><span style="none;"> </span></span><!--[endif]-->where the word “Scientology” comes from.</p>
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<p style="-18pt;"><!--[if !supportLists]--><strong>The core beliefs of the church of Scientology are:</strong></p>
<p><!--[if !supportLists]--><!--[endif]--><span> </span><!--[if !supportLists]-->Man is a spirit, he has lived before and that man is good.<span style="none;"> </span><!--[endif]--><span> </span>Through wisdom and knowledge man can improve any area of his life he wants.<span style="&quot;Times New Roman&quot;;"> Scientology is all denominational and non-conversionary and members bring with them their own beliefs. </span></p>
<p>Great Interviews ( <em>All the ads and music have been stripped out</em>)</p>
<p><!--[if gte mso 9]&gt;  Normal 0   &lt;![endif]--></p>
<p><a href="http://www.phoenixfm.com/story/2754.php"><strong> </strong></a></p>
<p><a href="http://www.phoenixfm.com/story/2754.php"><strong>Habibur Rahman &amp; Forad Edu &#8211; Islam / Alfurqaan Foundation</strong></a><br />
<a href="http://www.phoenixfm.com/story/2734.php"><strong>Father Matthew Bemand &#8211; St Thomas Church of England </strong></a><br />
<a href="http://www.phoenixfm.com/story/2732.php"><strong>Councillor Dudley Payne &#8211; Mayor of Brentwood </strong></a><br />
<a href="http://www.phoenixfm.com/story/2687.php"><strong>Mark Pinchin and Ian Clarkson &#8211; Scientology / Jive Aces </strong></a><br />
<a href="http://www.phoenixfm.com/story/2647.php"><strong>Ed Wellman &#8211; PhoenixFM Monday Classics </strong></a><br />
<a href="http://www.phoenixfm.com/story/2628.php"><strong>Richard Burch &#8211; Brentwood Buddhist Society </strong></a><br />
<a href="http://www.phoenixfm.com/story/2609.php"><strong>Chris Day &#8211; Crown Street Christian Fellowship </strong></a><br />
<a href="http://www.phoenixfm.com/story/2588.php"><strong>Reverand Peter Thomas (Baptist) </strong></a><br />
<a href="http://www.phoenixfm.com/story/2567.php"><strong>Reverand Trevor Jamison (United Reformed Church) </strong></a><br />
<a href="http://www.phoenixfm.com/story/2541.php"><strong>Julian May &#8211; ELIM </strong></a><br />
<a href="http://www.phoenixfm.com/story/2479.php"><strong>Father Paul Keane &#8211; Brentwood Catholic Cathedral </strong></a><br />
<a href="http://www.phoenixfm.com/story/2459.php"><strong>Bishop David Barter</strong></a></p>
<p><span style="&quot;Times New Roman&quot;;"><!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--></span></p>
<p><span class="moz-txt-citetags"> </span>The show can be seen at <a href="http://www.phoenixfm.com/proverbs98.php">www.phoenixfm.com/proverbs98.php</a></p>
<p>Let us know your views</p>
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<p><a href="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/paul-2.jpg"><img class="alignnone size-medium wp-image-5216" src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/paul-2.jpg" alt="" width="449" height="617" /></a></p>
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		<slash:comments>10</slash:comments>
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		<title>Who Should Go to Church, Anyway?</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/05/02/who-should-go-to-church-anyway/</link>
		<comments>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/05/02/who-should-go-to-church-anyway/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 May 2009 08:22:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Andrew S</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[church]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[diversity]]></category>
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		<category><![CDATA[cafeteria mormon]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=5176</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[So over at T&#38;S they&#8217;ve been having this discussion about the recent media report about the majority of America&#8217;s drifiting faith issues. And I know, you&#8217;re about to say, &#8220;Dude, this isn&#8217;t T&#38;S. We do things differently at Mormon Matters,&#8221; and I understand. And while I discussed this a bit at my blog, I most definitely know we do things differently here than there. So I wanted to try to approach the subject differently here and add some value (well&#8230;perhaps I won&#8217;t be so successful at this latter endeavor.) My question is this&#8230;who should go to church and what should we expect of the people who go to church? Recently over at T&#38;S (and I guess it&#8217;s spilled over in some comments in this latest article), there has been a tone that suggests that Cafeteria, Middle-of-the-way, or New Order Mormons are (or should be) a concern to the church. As Bookslinger comments, I think the drift within the LDS church is also illustrated in the bloggernacle, not just those who’ve formally left the church, but also new order Mormons and middle-way Mormons. There are also those who claim to be solidly in the Mormon camp, but still attenuate some core [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So over at T&amp;S they&#8217;ve been having this discussion about the recent media report about the majority of <a href="http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/04/musings-on-drifting-faith/">America&#8217;s drifiting faith issues</a>. And I know, you&#8217;re about to say, &#8220;Dude, this isn&#8217;t T&amp;S. We do things differently at Mormon Matters,&#8221; and I understand. And while I <a href="http://irresistibledisgrace.wordpress.com/2009/04/28/who-do-we-want-to-keep-in-the-church/">discussed this a bit at my blog</a>, I most <em>definitely</em> know we do things differently here than there. So I wanted to try to approach the subject differently here and add some value (well&#8230;perhaps I won&#8217;t be so successful at this latter endeavor.)<span id="more-5176"></span></p>
<p>My question is this&#8230;who should go to church and what should we expect of the people who go to church? Recently over at T&amp;S (and I guess it&#8217;s spilled over in <a href="http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/04/musings-on-drifting-faith/#comment-290456">some comments</a> in this latest article), there has been a tone that suggests that Cafeteria, Middle-of-the-way, or New Order Mormons are (or should be) a concern to the church. As Bookslinger comments,</p>
<blockquote><p>I think the drift within the LDS church is also illustrated in the bloggernacle, not just those who’ve formally left the church, but also new order Mormons and middle-way Mormons. There are also those who claim to be solidly in the Mormon camp, but still attenuate some core beliefs. In addition to the cafeteria style “I’ll take a full serving of this, and some of this, but none of that,” people now seem to be nuancing, or adding shades of grey to, things that I had previously thought of as black-and-white, go-or-no-go.</p>
<p>Rather than admitting that one can’t or won’t comply with requirement “X” of the gospel (or of church policy), some people nuance away or diminish “X” as non-essential, or even as an incorrect element.</p>
<p>Rather than figuratively beating one’s breast and admitting a lack of faith/shortcoming/sin, the item is just dismissed or nuanced away.</p></blockquote>
<p>Ouch. Somehow I feel as if he had some people in mind with some of these thoughts. Regardless, what it got me thinking about was&#8230;what should be the goal?</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve seen a lot of John Dehlin&#8217;s works about <a href="http://www.staylds.com/">staying</a> <a href="http://mormon-chronicles.blogspot.com/2009/04/mormon-stories-available-again.html">LDS</a>, and regardless of whether this is still representative (I&#8217;m not totally sure, so I&#8217;m not sure if I&#8217;m completely misrepresenting his views), it seems to me that it distinctly disagrees with someone like Bookslinger&#8217;s view. Bookslinger&#8217;s comment seems to suggest (maybe it&#8217;s just my imagination) that there is an ideal belief system and all members should be striving to move to acceptance to that belief system. If they do not, they should understand clearly that they are not &#8220;nuanced&#8221; or in &#8220;gray areas,&#8221; but they <em>are</em> unorthordox, faithless, wrong, or sinful.</p>
<p>If that indeed is the position that Bookslinger (or anyone else) takes, then I suppose that&#8217;s not a bad position to take, if one will take it. However, the side effect that it produces is that it creates this incredible barrier to entry that can actually serve to push people on the margins (whether inside or outside the church) away.</p>
<p>This is contrasted, however, with those who would suggest that the number of &#8220;core beliefs&#8221; is more limited, so there is actually a wide range of flexibility in the church. People should not feel pressured to have to believe a certain way or leave, but instead should make the church work for them.</p>
<p>I see advantages and disadvantages to both. The hardline stance seems just a touch more appealing (because sometimes, you need to strong understanding of what is acceptable or what is not), but on the other hand, the hardline stance <em>also</em> makes it quite easy to look at it all and say no. The flexible stance makes staying in the church more appealing, but it may shy down on providing the tough love needed to provide transformational change.</p>
<p>If the goal is to have people go to church and keep going, then it seems like one might want to consider more flexibility. However, if the goal is to have a more committed community (even if that community is smaller), then perhaps one should worry about quality over quantity and stick with potentially unpopular, unyielding ideas.</p>
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		<slash:comments>49</slash:comments>
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		<title>Faith vs. Doubt</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/04/09/faith-vs-doubt/</link>
		<comments>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/04/09/faith-vs-doubt/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Apr 2009 06:14:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Hawkgrrrl</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[apostasy]]></category>
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		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=4885</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&#8220;Faith and doubt cannot exist in the same mind at the same time, for one will dispel the other.&#8221; Here are a few responses from various different individuals to this quote from this weekend&#8217;s General Conference: &#8220;It&#8217;s not as if you&#8217;re going to hear that and say &#8220;Right. I guess I don&#8217;t have doubts.&#8221; It seems more likely that people will hear that and say &#8220;Right. I guess I don&#8217;t have faith.&#8221;" &#8220;Plenty of seemingly incompatible thoughts/emotions coexist in the same mind at the same time without dispelling each other. It&#8217;s like saying &#8220;being faithful in marriage means never having desires for another woman/man&#8221; when the truth is faithfulness in marriage is about staying committed in spite of those desires.&#8221; &#8220;If Joseph Smith hadn&#8217;t doubted a whole bunch of things would we even have the LDS Church?&#8221; &#8220;One popular ZEN proverb reads, “Where there is great doubt, there will be great awakening; small doubt, small awakening; no doubt, no awakening.” It’s refreshing and uplifting to think about doubt as a positive catalyst for reflection and self-discovery, rather than a weakness to be risen above.&#8221; &#8220;If faith means enough hope to act even though one is not absolutely certain of the result, the [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Faith and doubt cannot exist in the same mind at the same time, for one will dispel the other.&#8221;<span id="more-4885"></span></p>
<p>Here are a few responses from various different individuals to this quote from this weekend&#8217;s General Conference:</p>
<ul>
<li>&#8220;It&#8217;s not as if you&#8217;re going to hear that and say &#8220;Right. I guess I don&#8217;t have doubts.&#8221; It seems more likely that people will hear that and say &#8220;Right. I guess I don&#8217;t have faith.&#8221;"</li>
<li>&#8220;Plenty of seemingly incompatible thoughts/emotions coexist in the same mind at the same time without dispelling each other. It&#8217;s like saying &#8220;being faithful in marriage means never having desires for another woman/man&#8221; when the truth is faithfulness in marriage is about staying committed in spite of those desires.&#8221;</li>
<li><img class="alignright" src="http://www.moroni10.com/vision1.jpg" alt="" />&#8220;If Joseph Smith hadn&#8217;t doubted a whole bunch of things would we even have the LDS Church?&#8221;</li>
<li>&#8220;One popular ZEN proverb reads, “Where there is great doubt, there will be great awakening; small doubt, small awakening; no doubt, no awakening.” It’s refreshing and uplifting to think about doubt as a positive catalyst for reflection and self-discovery, rather than a weakness to be risen above.&#8221;</li>
<li>&#8220;If faith means enough hope to act even though one is not absolutely certain of the result, the opposite is enough despair or discouragement that we become paralyzed from acting. If one calls that despair or discouragement &#8220;doubt&#8221;, then I agree that doubt is the opposite of faith.  However, I personally see doubt as uncertainty, recognizing the possibility that what we hope for or believe is not true. For me, that is an inherent component of faith. Without that uncertainty or doubt, I do not think faith exists (because it would be knowledge or certainty).&#8221;</li>
<li>&#8220;I&#8217;ve heard plenty of Church leaders admit to feeling doubts, and Joseph Smith seemed full of them. But quotes like this do set-up a certain mindset among the &#8220;faithful&#8221; that they should never entertain doubt, or else. The sad thing here is that this state-of-mind is temporary at best, and can often lead to complete loss of faith. But some GC talks seem more designed to rally than educate, which explains stuff like this.&#8221;</li>
<li><a href="http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.montagneministries.com/Mother%2520Theresa.jpg&amp;imgrefurl=http://www.montagneministries.com/devins_art_religious.htm&amp;usg=__VK0Q83b9qf4XxckmZ0cCmAK-jNM=&amp;h=581&amp;w=459&amp;sz=135&amp;hl=en&amp;start=7&amp;sig2=hvorfr7P9R8dwWEhJqa8RQ&amp;tbnid=9zubZTPupxT5pM:&amp;tbnh=134&amp;tbnw=106&amp;prev=/images%3Fq%3Dmother%2Btheresa%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den&amp;ei=_5DaSdWXM5rqtQOsmo3NBg"><img class="alignright" style="border: 1px solid;" src="http://tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:9zubZTPupxT5pM:http://www.montagneministries.com/Mother%2520Theresa.jpg" alt="" width="106" height="134" /></a>&#8220;What was most striking about Mother Theresa was the juxtaposition of faith and doubt in her life. She had such faith, yet such doubt at the same time. I think it&#8217;s totally bogus to pit faith and doubt against each other as opposites. They aren&#8217;t competitors, they&#8217;re collaborators &#8211; they encourage each other. Faith exists because of doubt, and doubt because of faith. IMO, faith without doubt is smug arrogance. Show me someone who has no doubt, and I&#8217;ll show you someone who has no faith.&#8221;</li>
<li>&#8220;Pope Benedict referred to Mother Thesesa&#8217;s doubts as the &#8220;silence of God,&#8221; and said that all true believers must learn to deal with the silence of God which inevitably come to all of us.&#8221;</li>
<li><img class="alignright" src="http://api.ning.com/files/ie1tpCrlpR3StbupvnQTS7wsD2ES2M6LLukZieUpufU_/CrownOfthorns.jpg" alt="" width="145" height="190" />&#8220;Elder Holland said Jesus needed to experience something like doubt. Joseph Smith certainly did&#8211;see the first verses of section 121. And the book of Job is full of doubts and anguish (although, in the condensed version we skip from Job&#8217;s refusal to condemn God and go straight to the restoration of his prior blessing, and we overlook his struggles and anguish and anger expressed in the intervening chapters).&#8221;</li>
<li>&#8220;If faith is a spiritual gift, then only some will receive it. I&#8217;m paraphrasing, but the scripture says some will have the give of faith and some will have the gift to believe those with faith and some will have other gifts. And yet then we are told it is a sin if we don&#8217;t have this gift?&#8221;</li>
<li>&#8220;When church leaders are asking for us to have faith in God, they really mean have faith in what they tell you about God and what the scriptures say about God, but neither are God, they are just ideas.&#8221;</li>
</ul>
<p>What do you think?  Does doubt drive out faith?  Or is faith without doubt smug arrogance?  Is doubt an essential part of faith development?  Is some doubt bad (paralyzing doubt) and some good (energizing doubt)?  Is doubt the same as &#8220;the silence of God&#8221; that Mother Theresa, Joseph Smith, Jesus, and Job all experienced?  Do you view doubt as a complement to faith or the enemy of faith?  Is there a &#8220;war on doubt&#8221; in the church?</p>
<p>Discuss.</p>
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		<title>The Untold Story of Black Mormons by Guest</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/04/02/the-untold-story-of-black-mormons-by-guest/</link>
		<comments>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/04/02/the-untold-story-of-black-mormons-by-guest/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Apr 2009 07:06:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>guest</dc:creator>
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		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=4704</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[When I served a mission in eastern Canada in the early 90s, there were many things I was grateful for (warm boots, wool suits, fairly normal food). But above all, I was grateful that I was sent to a region with very few black people, as I was not looking forward to having to defend something in the Church’s past that had deeply troubled even a relatively immature teenager with a limited knowledge of Church history and doctrine. By that point, the ban on male black members having the priesthood had been lifted for more than a dozen years. Yet, it still bothered me. And it seemed far from a settled issue. Plenty of influential writings from top Church leaders could be found in any ward house library that linked all black people back to Cain and postulated that they were “less valiant” in the pre-existence – hence, no priesthood. I never believed this, and would have had a very difficult time trying to teach this nonsense with a straight face. Luckily, I never had to. I share that background to explain why – at Sunstone West this past weekend – I took such a keen interest in a screening [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p style="center;">When I served a mission in eastern Canada in the early 90s, there were many things I was grateful for (warm boots, wool suits, fairly normal food). But above all, I was grateful that I was sent to a region with very few black people, as I was not looking forward to having to defend something in the Church’s past that had deeply troubled even a relatively immature teenager with a limited knowledge of Church history and doctrine.<br />
<span id="more-4704"></span><br />
<img class="size-medium wp-image-4707  alignright" src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/abel.png" alt="" width="116" height="172" />By that point, the ban on male black members having the priesthood had been lifted for more than a dozen years. Yet, it still bothered me. And it seemed far from a settled issue. Plenty of influential writings from top Church leaders could be found in any ward house library that linked all black people back to Cain and postulated that they were “less valiant” in the pre-existence – hence, no priesthood. I never believed this, and would have had a very difficult time trying to teach this nonsense with a straight face. Luckily, I never had to.</p>
<p>I share that background to explain why – at Sunstone West this past weekend – I took such a keen interest in a screening of the film “Nobody Knows: The Untold Story of Black Mormons.” Produced by Margaret Blair Young and Darius Gray, this movie goes through the history of black people in the Church and the evolution of the priesthood ban, which is largely &#8220;credited&#8221; to Brigham Young. Apparently, he evolved (or de-volved) in his views, as the movie had some interesting early quotes from him that were far more kind and tolerant towards blacks than some of his later whoppers. The historical context painted by the film shows an influx of Mormon converts from the southern states who brought their slaves to Utah. Henceforth, Young made the decision to make Utah into a slave-friendly territory. Another bit of historical context that I don’t remember being mentioned in the film is that the Democratic Party (then pro-slavery) was also more tolerant of plural marriage, which was likely another factor in the decision.</p>
<p>Fascinating as the history was, the movie was far more touching for me on a personal level. I was utterly floored by the powerful testimonies shared by the many black LDS members interviewed on camera. Many of these folks joined the Church while the ban still existed. One African-American sister shared the heartbreaking observation that the first time she was ever called a “nigger” was in the Salt Lake temple. Yet, she was far from angry. Like many others of all races, her life had been touched in a positive way by the Gospel. That many of these folks retained a love and loyalty to an organization that had rejected them for so long was amazing. The Church apparently did not sponsor this project, but it should buy every copy that it can and send it out to all four corners of the Earth. Seriously, who better to share the hopeful message of the Gospel than a group of people who consistently getting the short end of the stick.</p>
<p>Another interesting tidbit from the film was a story about Dr. Cecil “Chip” Murray, retired pastor of the First AME Church of Los Angeles (which was founded by a former slave of Mormon pioneers). Murray shares a story on camera that he was once invited to meet with then-President Hinckley at the Church Office Building. At that meeting, he says Hinckley apologized to him for the Church&#8217;s participation in the slavery issue and for its part in perpetuating prejudice against black people. How broad he meant that is arguable, but it certainly seems a long way from just three decades ago.</p>
<p>Ms. Young was there and hosted a lively discussion afterwards. She is working on getting the film distributed. Apparently, Howard University has agreed to show it on its PBS station. Hopefully, BYU does the same. Anyone interested should start bugging their local PBS station. And maybe some e-mails to Netflix to spark their interest wouldn’t hurt, either.</p>
<p>Basically, two thumbs up here. Despite the lousy economy, I would heartily recommend dipping into your wallet for $25 to buy the DVD (it can be found at</p>
<p><a href="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/nobody-knows1.jpg"><img class="alignnone size-medium wp-image-4714" src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/nobody-knows1.jpg" alt="" width="215" height="215" /></a></p>
<p><!-- m --><a class="postlink" rel="nofollow" href="http://derefer.me/?http://www.untoldstoryofblackmormons.com">http://www.untoldstoryofblackmormons.com</a></p>
<p><!-- m -->) And no, I’m not getting a cut. Thanks for listening.</p>
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		<title>Why B,B-S-W A-As Who Support Extension of the Priesthood to W-w-l-P are Depressed</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/03/29/why-bb-s-w-a-as-who-support-extension-of-the-priesthood-to-w-w-l-p-are-depressed/</link>
		<comments>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/03/29/why-bb-s-w-a-as-who-support-extension-of-the-priesthood-to-w-w-l-p-are-depressed/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Mar 2009 20:23:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Andrew S</dc:creator>
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		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=4669</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I decided to spare everyone the full title of this article: Why Bearded, Blue-Shirt-Wearing African-Americans Who Support Extension of the Priesthood to Women who love Pr0n are Depressed. (And that title, if you can believe it, is actually culled from what the internal memos discussed). I&#8217;m sure there are several writers on site who are busily searching through intellectual copyright law as I speak, so I must speak quickly before I get shut down (not to mention before the Bearded, Blue-Shirt-Wearing African Americans and Women who love Pr0n nab me for libel). The other day, John C at BCC made another Monday Morning Theological Poll and asked: &#8220;True or False: If someone wishes to leave the church, it is because they have some grave, unconfessed sin?&#8221; &#8230;I don&#8217;t know how representative BCC is of Mormondom as a whole, but if we can but abuse statistics for this one time, we can come to the conclusion that, overwhelmingly, Mormons do not believe such a claim. Just looking at the stats, more Mormons percentage-wise say &#8220;no&#8221; to such a claim than Facebookers hate the new Facebook design (drat, that&#8217;s a lie: Facebook&#8217;s current 93% hate [with millions of votes] tops the 91% [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I decided to spare everyone the full title of this article: Why Bearded, Blue-Shirt-Wearing African-Americans Who Support Extension of the Priesthood to Women who love Pr0n are Depressed. (And that title, if you can believe it, is actually culled from what the internal memos discussed).</p>
<p>I&#8217;m sure there are several writers on site who are busily searching through intellectual copyright law as I speak, so I must speak quickly before I get shut down (not to mention before the Bearded, Blue-Shirt-Wearing African Americans and Women who love Pr0n nab me for libel).</p>
<p>The other day, John C at BCC made another <a href="http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/03/23/mmtp-suspicious-activity-edition/">Monday Morning Theological Poll</a> and asked: &#8220;True or False: If someone wishes to leave the church, it is because they have some grave, unconfessed sin?&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8230;I don&#8217;t know how representative BCC is of Mormondom as a whole, but if we can but abuse statistics for this one time, we can come to the conclusion that, overwhelmingly, Mormons do not believe such a claim. Just looking at the stats, more Mormons percentage-wise say &#8220;no&#8221; to such a claim than Facebookers hate the new Facebook design (drat, that&#8217;s a lie: Facebook&#8217;s current 93% hate [with millions of votes] tops the 91% of BCCers that say false. But if Obama&#8217;s 53% of the popular vote can be a landslide and Prop 8&#8242;s 52% can just be a &#8220;narrow victory,&#8221; then I&#8217;m game for anything statistic-wise.) I&#8217;ll add Obama supporters to the list of people coming after me.<span id="more-4669"></span></p>
<p>Anyway, this post isn&#8217;t about that. That has nothing to do with B, B-S-W A-As (in particular, didn&#8217;t Obama say he can&#8217;t even grow a good beard?). or those W-w-l-P. In fact, what piqued my attention was a comment <a href="http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/03/23/mmtp-suspicious-activity-edition/#comment-126061">further down the page</a>:</p>
<blockquote><p>Actually, it has been conclusively shown that people who leave the Church are those who believe that people leave the Church because they have some grave, unconfessed sin.</p></blockquote>
<p>I was thinking about this&#8230;and I realized I had to approach it delicately.</p>
<p>I guess I&#8217;m not going to speak so much about depression so much, because while I speak in jest, I don&#8217;t mean to jest about people who suffer from this condition. But I know as well that there are those who seem to attract this kind of&#8230;I dunno&#8230;sour attitude about things. Oh, the Church can&#8217;t do this right. And the church can&#8217;t do that right. How dare the Church support this but say little about that?</p>
<p>I&#8217;m sure that all of these things are of the utmost importance and people have to stick by their principles, but could it be that sometimes, people just take things too seriously? I mean, in the end, people need to decide if they will take something or if they will not, and if they will not, they need to start the process of trying to move past and move away.</p>
<p>I mean, if you&#8217;re going to be bearded and blue-shirt-wearing, for example, recognize that you&#8217;ll face some flak. If that&#8217;s too much for you, say bye (because really, if you don&#8217;t want, you don&#8217;t have to take it), but be secure in your decision. But don&#8217;t think you&#8217;ll be off the hook. You will <a href="http://irresistibledisgrace.wordpress.com/2009/02/09/pick-your-stigma/">face stigma no matter where you go</a> or what you do, so you might as well pick something that you are comfortable with and then go forward with that.</p>
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		<title>Coming out of the closet</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/03/26/coming-out-of-the-closet/</link>
		<comments>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/03/26/coming-out-of-the-closet/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Mar 2009 09:12:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Andrew S</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[apostasy]]></category>
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		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=4621</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[A while back I was reading an article by Seth Payne (and I blogged about it on my personal blog from a slightly different perspective)&#8230;and I guess I was most impressed/shocked by something that Seth had done. See, while I was already interested in the paper because he tried to analyze the Ex-Mormon exit narrative (I&#8217;m just a sucker for that&#8230;even if someone gets it wrong [it happens more often than I'd care to admit], but fortunately Seth had a reasonable analysis, I think) what I didn&#8217;t expect was in this shift that Seth took. Rather than speaking about how flawed and petty and prideful Ex-Mormons must be or whatever, he notes: &#8230;the narratives themselves seem to be driven by an estrangement process both doctrinal and social. I believe that we, as liberal and intellectual Mormons are partially to blame for perpetuating these feelings of estrangement. I discussed this a bit on my blog, but I wanted to discuss this again because I hadn&#8217;t really quite seen something like it. He continues: For too long we have been marginal to Mormon culture and have conceived of ourselves as “the other.” In many cases, we have defined ourselves by what we [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A while back I was reading an article by <a href="http://www.sethpayne.com/?p=369">Seth Payne</a> (and I blogged about it on my personal blog <a href="http://irresistibledisgrace.wordpress.com/2009/03/17/ex-mormon-narratives-a-lazy-review/">from a slightly different perspective</a>)&#8230;and I guess I was most impressed/shocked by something that Seth had done.</p>
<p>See, while I was already interested in the paper because he tried to analyze the Ex-Mormon exit narrative (I&#8217;m just a sucker for that&#8230;even if someone gets it wrong [it happens more often than I'd care to admit], but fortunately Seth had a reasonable analysis, I think) what I didn&#8217;t expect was in this shift that Seth took. Rather than speaking about how flawed and petty and prideful Ex-Mormons must be or whatever, he notes:</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8230;the narratives themselves seem to be driven by an estrangement process both doctrinal and social. I believe that we, as liberal and intellectual Mormons are partially to blame for perpetuating these feelings of estrangement.</p></blockquote>
<p>I discussed this a bit on my blog, but I wanted to discuss this again because I hadn&#8217;t really quite seen something like it.<span id="more-4621"></span> He continues:</p>
<blockquote><p>For too long we have been marginal to Mormon culture and have conceived of ourselves as “the other.” In many cases, we have defined ourselves by what we are not and by what we do not believe, rather than as what we are and by what truths we have found. Rather than positively affirm our faith, we have often sought identity through the discovery and adoption of heterodox views. The irony of course, is that the whole notion of orthodoxy is anathema to Mormonism. There is no orthodoxy, but merely the perception thereof.</p>
<p>Regardless of any particular truth claim or its so-called validity, there is one observable and tangible, yet amazingly silent reality. In our midst there are those who struggle and suffer with their faith. There are those who feel alone and isolated and whose world-views are shattering regardless of how much they fast, pray, hold family home evening, or read the Book of Mormon. These saints often feel as if they are alone.</p>
<p>At first glance, Mormonism may give off the appearance of a homogeny of culture and belief, yet, there is a strong undercurrent of lively discussion, debate, belief, and conversation involving a wide-range of Latter-day Saints who may or may not accept all of modern Mormonism’s unique truth claims. I believe that we, who are engaged in this conversation are called to make our faith manifest to kindred spirits – to validate their struggle, to share our experiences, our doubts, and our love. Recently, one first-time attendee of Sunstone West commented on his blog: “Sunstone attendees treated me exactly the way we hope and ask ward members to treat all newcomers.” Let us extend that experience beyond the walls of this symposium. Let us, in our unique and individual way, seek out those who need and want to hear our perspective and our testimony</p></blockquote>
<p>And then, as opening to his conclusion:</p>
<blockquote><p>In conclusion, may I suggest that those of us who consider ourselves Mormon liberals or intellectuals come “out of the shadows”, as it were, and assume a pastoral role for those who may become ex-Mormon. By existing and behaving as a sub-culture, rather than as an integral part of the larger Mormon tapestry of experience, we contribute to the myth of Mormon orthodoxy. By this I mean that every Latter-day Saint struggles with their faith, prefers some doctrines over others, and ultimately forms a unique world-view informed, but not strictly defined by LDS theology. Certainly, some of our brothers and sisters will find that they are more comfortable outside the Church. We will miss them. However, many who struggle are seeking a reason to stay; to retain their heritage and develop a faith which is informed by their Mormon roots.</p></blockquote>
<p>I was reminded by another post or comment somewhere on the bloggernacle: I don&#8217;t know if it was here or BCC or wherever else, but someone was lamenting on this unfortunate trend that they saw. They might see one lone black family in their ward, but after a while, the family would leave, feeling they were alone and misunderstood. Soon, there might be another black family in the ward, but since the first had left, they too might feel they were alone in their experience and leave. And the cycle would continue.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know how many members who would consider themselves &#8220;liberal&#8221; go here, but from what I&#8217;ve seen, I wouldn&#8217;t think that MM is opposed to this message of coming out. And while I&#8217;m not saying that it would convert me to the gospel or anything, I would say that if church were more like MM or Sunstone, that would be a lot more comfortable to many members.</p>
<p>So, are we all out of the closet? Two separate causes, but the analogy, I think, is apt.</p>
<p>What even works? What doesn&#8217;t work?</p>
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		<title>Strange Bedfellows</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/03/20/strange-bedfellows/</link>
		<comments>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/03/20/strange-bedfellows/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Mar 2009 08:16:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Hawkgrrrl</dc:creator>
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		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=4470</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[One aspect of the church that makes me nervous at times is the alliances we form when our interests coincide with other groups, whether this is in the political realm (as is often the case), or even at times in interfaith work we undertake. I suppose alliances are a necessary evil if you want to get anything done.  Companies do it.  Countries do it.  Even individual people do it.  What are the dangers of these &#8220;strange bedfellows&#8221;? Association.  Having our views misunderstood or misconstrued by outsiders or even by our own members.  For example, do some members begin to think that we have a different or stronger stance on issues because our associates do?  Also, when an &#8220;ally&#8221; does something really stupid (many have), does that taint us by association? Motivation.  While our alliances might coincide, often our motives are quite different below the surface from those of our allies.  When those motives differ, our actions are likely to differ as well as our desired outcomes.  Isn&#8217;t it also likely that we might be used to achieve ends with which we disagree? Conflict of Interest.  Once an alliance is formed, it&#8217;s much harder to separate our interests where they naturally diverge.  There [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One aspect of the church that makes me nervous at times is the alliances we form when our interests coincide with other groups, whether this is in the political realm (as is often the case), or even at times in interfaith work we undertake.<span id="more-4470"></span></p>
<p><img class="alignright" src="http://www.coxandforkum.com/archives/StrangeBedfellows-X.gif" alt="http://www.coxandforkum.com/archives/StrangeBedfellows-X.gif" width="267" height="200" />I suppose alliances are a necessary evil if you want to get anything done.  Companies do it.  Countries do it.  Even individual people do it.  What are the dangers of these &#8220;strange bedfellows&#8221;?</p>
<ul>
<li><strong>Association</strong>.  Having our views misunderstood or misconstrued by outsiders or even by our own members.  For example, do some members begin to think that we have a different or stronger stance on issues because our associates do?  Also, when an &#8220;ally&#8221; does something really stupid (many have), does that taint us by association?</li>
<li><strong>Motivation</strong>.  While our alliances might coincide, often our motives are quite different below the surface from those of our allies.  When those motives differ, our actions are likely to differ as well as our desired outcomes.  Isn&#8217;t it also likely that we might be used to achieve ends with which we disagree?</li>
<li><strong>Conflict of Interest</strong>.  Once an alliance is formed, it&#8217;s much harder to separate our interests where they naturally diverge.  There may be pressure by virtue of the relationship to allow our allies greater latitude for things we might otherwise have taken a stance against.</li>
</ul>
<p>Clearly, there are some groups we have been leery to court as allies because the risk was too high:  the FLDS, staunch pro-life groups, the ERA (not sure that was really under consideration, but just wanted to see if you were paying attention), and the religious right.  But consider for a moment some of the alliances church members have formed.  Some of these are alliances the organization has sought out, and others are more &#8220;grass roots&#8221; alliances that members have formed, thinking their interests coincide:</p>
<ul>
<li><strong>Prop 8 Allies.</strong> Many of these are the same guys who:
<ul>
<li>think we are a cult</li>
<li>want to &#8220;pray the gay away&#8221;</li>
<li>make some very hateful and inaccurate remarks about homosexuals</li>
<li>supported Huckabee to knock Romney out of the race for POTUS because Romney believed Satan and Jesus were brothers and apparently in each others&#8217; fave five.  (Hey, I guess by that logic we also think Huck and Satan are brothers!)</li>
</ul>
</li>
<li><strong>Focus on the Family</strong>.  This is James Dobson&#8217;s ministry to protect families.  But they ALSO support school sponsored prayer, corporal punishment, abortion intervention, and intelligent design.  Additionally, they are far more politically involved in their causes than we are, and many of their causes are ones on which we have no clear stance or don&#8217;t go as far as they do (see the aforementioned items:  we don&#8217;t have a stance on school sponsored prayer, we caution against actions like corporal punishment at least within the family, our abortion stance is softer than theirs, and we teach evolution at BYU).</li>
<li><strong>Feature Films for Family</strong>.  Enterprises like this take a nice idea (clean entertainment that is family friendly) as a starting point.  Often they lack the talent and resources to make it high quality or a good value.</li>
<li><strong>Clean Flicks</strong>.  This UT-based company that catered to the LDS crowd by removing objectionable movie content was more of a benevolently-viewed off-shoot, but they were certainly viewed as associated with Mormons.  Hollywood didn&#8217;t like being edited by do-gooders and sued them over it (frankly these people don&#8217;t like to be edited by anyone!  have you ever seen a Director&#8217;s Cut?); Clean Flicks discontinued.  Then the owner was implicated in an unsavory pornography scam in Utah County.  In our lovely deseret.</li>
<li><strong>Rush Limbaugh.</strong> Obviously, this alliance only applies to those Mormons who are also politically conservative Americans, but since that seems to be a very vocal majority, this association is relevant.  Limbaugh emcompasses basic political characteristics:  fat, loud hypocrisy.  Frankly, he&#8217;s not doing Republicans any favors either.  Maybe if the NRA cuts him from their Christmas card list, he&#8217;ll finally know he&#8217;s gone too far.</li>
<li><strong>Stockpiling WingNuts.</strong> There&#8217;s clearly a distinction between the reasonable counsel to be prepared for emergencies and layoffs by keeping a supply of food and money on hand and the wingnuts who are building a bunker in the backyard with a stockpile of weapons in case they have to kill and eat their neighbors.  There are some supposedly &#8220;like-minded&#8221; individuals out there wearing tin foil hats and selling 72 hour emergency kits to church members.</li>
<li><strong>&#8220;Obamanation&#8221; Armageddon Theorists.</strong> This is an unpleasant blend of political conservativism (fine in its own right) and Rapture-mongering (the idea that we can bring the second coming on despite the statements that say &#8220;no man knows the hour.&#8221;)  Can&#8217;t we disagree politically without resorting to religious fear-mongering?</li>
</ul>
<p>So, what other strange bedfellows are out there?  How do we avoid &#8220;the appearance of evil&#8221; by associating with those who share a passing interest, but in reality have aims that are far different from our own?  Is this an inevitable problem, or are there ways to more clearly distance ourselves from allies whose agendas differ or even contradict ours on many points?</p>
<p>Discuss.</p>
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		<title>Does Tom Hanks Hate Mormons?</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/03/11/does-tom-hanks-hate-mormons/</link>
		<comments>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/03/11/does-tom-hanks-hate-mormons/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Mar 2009 18:31:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Hawkgrrrl</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Anti-Mormon]]></category>
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		<category><![CDATA[Tom Hanks]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=4508</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Tom Hanks is a beloved actor to many Mormons for his family-friendly roles and everyman quality.  Yet, his recent negative remarks (and hasty retraction) calling Mormons who supported Prop 8 &#8220;unAmerican,&#8221; and his role as executive producer on Big Love which is about to air the most sacred Mormon ritual on television begs the question:  Does Tom Hanks hate Mormons? Interestingly enough, Tom Hanks was briefly identified as a Mormon (although he was not baptized) when his stepmother Winifred joined the church.  However, his father Amos was not interested in the Mormon church, and according to an unauthorized biography, Tom saw this as one reason they split up.  Tom stated later that he was no longer a Mormon, and he also believed his ex-stepmother had left Mormonism.  Tom made his way through several different religions over time as you can see here. Speaking of his involvement in the show Big Love, Hanks said (with my parenthetical comments inserted): The truth is this takes place in Utah (the truth is that it&#8217;s a fictional show), the truth is these people are some bizarre offshoot of the Mormon Church (the truth is these are fictional characters based loosely on some bizarre offshoots; [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tom Hanks is a beloved actor to many Mormons for his family-friendly roles and everyman quality.  Yet, his recent negative remarks (and hasty retraction) calling Mormons who supported Prop 8 &#8220;unAmerican,&#8221; and his role as executive producer on Big Love which is about to air the most sacred Mormon ritual on television begs the question:  Does Tom Hanks hate Mormons?<span id="more-4508"></span></p>
<p><img class="alignright" src="http://www.insidesocal.com/outinhollywood/,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,hanks23.jpg" alt="" width="108" height="127" />Interestingly enough, Tom Hanks was briefly identified as a Mormon (although he was not baptized) when his stepmother Winifred joined the church.  However, his father Amos was not interested in the Mormon church, and according to an unauthorized biography, Tom saw this as one reason they split up.  Tom stated later that he was no longer a Mormon, and he also believed his ex-stepmother had left Mormonism.  Tom made his way through several different religions over time as you can see <a href="http://www.ldsfilm.com/actors/TomHanks.html">here</a>.</p>
<p>Speaking of his involvement in the show Big Love, Hanks said (<em><span style="color: #0000ff;">with my parenthetical comments inserted</span></em>):</p>
<blockquote><p>The truth is this takes place in Utah (<em><span style="color: #0000ff;">the <strong>truth</strong> is that it&#8217;s a <strong>fictional</strong> show</span></em>), the truth is these people are some bizarre offshoot of the Mormon Church (<em><span style="color: #0000ff;">the <strong>truth</strong> is these are <strong>fictional</strong> characters based loosely on some bizarre offshoots; but KUDOS for the &#8220;bizarre offshoot&#8221; remark</span></em>), and the truth is a lot of Mormons gave a lot of money to the church to make Prop-8 happen (<em><span style="color: #0000ff;">why do I picture someone making air quotes when they say &#8220;happen&#8221;?</span></em>).  <strong>There are a lot of people who feel that is un-American and I am one of them</strong>.  I do not like to see any discrimination codified on any piece of paper, any of the 50 states in America, but here&#8217;s what happens now. A little bit of light can be shed and people can see who&#8217;s responsible (<em><span style="color: #0000ff;">is he now talking about the Prop 8 maps that identified donors, essentially putting targets on their backs for gay activists?</span></em>) and that can motivate the next go around of our self correcting constitution and hopefully we can move forward instead of backwards (<em><span style="color: #0000ff;">I&#8217;m not even sure this sentence went forward instead of backwards</span></em>). So lets have faith in not only the American (<em><span style="color: #0000ff;">not Mormons who are UNAmerican for voting for Prop 8</span></em>), but Californian constitutional process (<em><span style="color: #0000ff;">so, have faith in Americans, but if they vote wrong, have faith in the constitutional process to correct that</span></em>).</p></blockquote>
<p>Then, Tom did a fairly nice reversal of his statement:</p>
<blockquote><p>Last week, I labeled members of the Mormon church who supported California&#8217;s Proposition 8 as &#8220;un-American.&#8221; I believe Proposition 8 is counter to the promise of our Constitution; it is codified discrimination.  <strong>But everyone has a right to vote their conscience – nothing could be more American</strong>. To say members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints who contributed to Proposition 8 are &#8220;un-American&#8221; creates more division when the time calls for respectful disagreement.  No one should use &#8220;un- American&#8221; lightly or in haste.  I did.  I should not have. (<em><span style="color: #0000ff;">I really like the terseness and directness of the last few statements.  Apologizers, watch and learn</span></em>).</p></blockquote>
<p>Obviously, the reversal of his statements (which was doubtless prompted by those who have a financial stake in his popularity) doesn&#8217;t necessarily mean he&#8217;s ready for a group hug.  So, what are Tom Hanks&#8217; true feelings about Mormons?  Here&#8217;s a guess:</p>
<ul>
<li><strong>He&#8217;s an activist for gay rights</strong>.  Like most of Hollywood, he&#8217;s an SSM activist and considers those not ready for SSM to be discriminatory.  It&#8217;s hard to blame him for his sheltered Hollywood existence, though.  When you spend most of your time around like-minded people, you develop group-think.  I&#8217;m sure we can all relate on some level.  In summary:  his feelings are pro-SSM, not anti-Mormon.</li>
<li><strong>He&#8217;s spiritual, not religious</strong>.  He saw his ex-stepmother as flaky (looking at his own religious history I say &#8220;physician, heal thyself&#8221;) and therefore attracted to Mormonism as a phase; he probably doesn&#8217;t take it very seriously as a religion (see:  Hollywood).</li>
<li><strong>He&#8217;s an artist</strong>.  We see Hollywood as a money machine; they see themselves as creative artists, holding a mirror up to the human experience.  Tom Hanks strives to make characters (even the polygamous Hendricksons) understandable, human, accurate, and relatable.  Showing the Mormon temple ceremony is not being done as payback (although he does resent Prop 8); it&#8217;s being done for accuracy and to render Barb Hendrickson more human.  And he is just an EP, not a writer for the show (that would be Dustin Lance Black, the gay ex-Mormon who gave the impassioned speech at the Oscars).</li>
</ul>
<p>So, that&#8217;s my view.  I&#8217;m inclined to cut Hanks some slack.  Plus, I somewhat think there&#8217;s no such thing as bad press (even all that bad press out there).  Not many Mormons watch Big Love, but many do watch Tom Hanks.  I think his apology was adequate, and I don&#8217;t consider his work mean-spirited (although I hated the mullet he sported in DaVinci Code).  It&#8217;s a low bar, but high enough for me.  Discuss.</p>
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		<title>More Open Mormon History</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/03/06/more-open-mormon-history/</link>
		<comments>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/03/06/more-open-mormon-history/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Mar 2009 06:15:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Mormon Heretic</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[apologetics]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[apostasy]]></category>
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		<category><![CDATA[history]]></category>
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		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=4430</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I attended a few Mormon History Conferences last weekend. I gave a more detailed account on my blog, but wanted to see how Mormon Matters readers react to a few comments made at these conferences. Elder Marlin K Jensen told of a study done by the church, which stated that members who knew more about church history were more active in the church, and members who knew less about Mormon history were less active. This seems to fly in the face of conventional wisdom. Many people on the bloggernacle seem to think that learning about Mormon history leads to inactivity and apostasy. What do you make of this? Jensen encouraged &#8220;a lifelong commitment to church history.&#8221; Do you think this is wise counsel? Are you afraid some will lose their testimony by following this advice? Ronald K Esplin stated that the 1970&#8242;s were viewed at a period of &#8220;Camelot&#8221; for the church&#8217;s openness to church history. He stated that he believes that &#8220;there is no better time to study church history than today.&#8221; Do you agree/disagree? Terryl Givens talked about paradoxes of Mormonism. He talked about how intellectuals struggle with submission to authority vs free agency. He said intellectuals must [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I attended a few Mormon History Conferences last weekend.  I gave a more <a title="Mormon History Conferences" href="http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/02/28/not-your-typical-conference-weekend/" target="_blank">detailed account</a> on my blog, but wanted to see how Mormon Matters readers react to a few comments made at these conferences.</p>
<p><span id="more-4430"></span></p>
<ol>
<li>Elder Marlin K Jensen told of a study done by the church, which stated that members who knew more about church history were more active in the church, and members who knew less about Mormon history were less active.  This seems to fly in the face of conventional wisdom.  Many people on the bloggernacle seem to think that learning about Mormon history leads to inactivity and apostasy.  What do you make of this?</li>
<li>Jensen encouraged &#8220;a lifelong commitment to church history.&#8221;  Do you think this is wise counsel?  Are you afraid some will lose their testimony by following this advice?</li>
<li>Ronald K Esplin stated that the 1970&#8242;s were viewed at a period of &#8220;Camelot&#8221; for the church&#8217;s openness to church history.  He stated that he believes that &#8220;there is no better time to study church history than today.&#8221;  Do you agree/disagree?</li>
<li>Terryl Givens talked about paradoxes of Mormonism.  He talked about how intellectuals struggle with submission to authority vs free agency.  He said intellectuals must walk the tightrope between blind faith, and posturing apostasy.  He said that it is easy for people to fall off this tightrope, but that to be intellectually rich, one always has to balance &#8220;seeking, searching faith.&#8221;  So should a person who falls off this tightrope be considered &#8220;intellectually weak&#8221;?</li>
</ol>
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		<title>Filtered Visions by guest Reuben Collins</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/03/02/filtered-visions-by-reuben-collins/</link>
		<comments>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/03/02/filtered-visions-by-reuben-collins/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Mar 2009 19:00:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
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		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=4400</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#8217;ve been thinking about Levi Peterson&#8217;s The Backslider lately (SPOILERS AHEAD). The 1986 novel tells the story of Frank Windham, a Mormon cowboy from southern Utah. Frank struggles with his faith and finding his place in Mormon culture. Topics including sexual sin, backsliding, self-mutilation, and guilt have made this novel pretty controversial in many Mormon settings. Despite being beautifully written, I&#8217;ve always thought that the true genious of the novel is the way Frank envisions God &#38; Jesus. Something happens during the transmission of Heavenly knowlege from God into the human mind. We are terribly incapable of understanding or comprehending God. And this means that our visions and revelations, as sacred as they may be, aren&#8217;t actually visions of God. They&#8217;re human interpretations of glory beyond our understanding. We have visions of God &#8211; glorious visions &#8211; real visions &#8211; but they&#8217;re filtered through an earthly lens colored by our personal circumstances. We understand God based on who we need Him to be. This isn&#8217;t to denigrate the authenticity of visions, but we should be careful when trying to make categorical statements about God based on an earthly vision. At one point in the novel, Frank is feeling guilty because [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/41yejfzkyel_sl500_aa240_.jpg"><img class="alignnone size-medium wp-image-4425" src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/41yejfzkyel_sl500_aa240_.jpg" alt="" width="168" height="168" /></a></p>
<p>I&#8217;ve been thinking about Levi Peterson&#8217;s The Backslider lately (SPOILERS AHEAD). <span id="more-4400"></span></p>
<p>The 1986 novel tells the story of Frank Windham, a Mormon cowboy from southern Utah. Frank struggles with his faith and finding his place in Mormon culture. Topics including sexual sin, backsliding, self-mutilation, and guilt have made this novel pretty controversial in many Mormon settings. Despite being beautifully written, I&#8217;ve always thought that the true genious of the novel is the way Frank envisions God &amp; Jesus.</p>
<p>Something happens during the transmission of Heavenly knowlege from God into the human mind. We are terribly incapable of understanding or comprehending God. And this means that our visions and revelations, as sacred as they may be, aren&#8217;t actually visions of God. They&#8217;re human interpretations of glory beyond our understanding. We have visions of God &#8211; glorious visions &#8211; real visions &#8211; but they&#8217;re filtered through an earthly lens colored by our personal circumstances. We understand God based on who we need Him to be. This isn&#8217;t to denigrate the authenticity of visions, but we should be careful when trying to make categorical statements about God based on an earthly vision.</p>
<p>At one point in the novel, Frank is feeling guilty because of his backsliding and he imagines God pointing a gun at him, calling him to repentance. For some this is absurd, but for Frank, it was as real as any other heavenly vision. His understanding of God is shaped by his experiences. Whereas God communicated his wrath to Adam through banishment, to Noah through flooding, to Moses through serpents and plagues, He communicated his wrath to Frank through a rifle.</p>
<p>By the end of the novel, Frank imagines Jesus as a Cowboy, riding a horse with cigarette in hand. It&#8217;s an account that is sure to rub many Mormons the wrong way, but it&#8217;s who Frank needed Jesus to be in order to have faith in Him. A merciful God wouldn&#8217;t send Frank anything less than Cowboy Jesus.</p>
<p>So we can talk about who God is, what He looks like, or where He came from, but it doesn&#8217;t matter.  What matters is that He is.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know much about God, but i&#8217;m pretty sure Jesus rides a bicycle.</p>
<p>&#8220;Happiness is a full bike rack!&#8221; &#8211;Yehuda Moon</p>
<p>So attentive MM readers, won&#8217;t you tell me a little about YOUR version of God?</p>
<p><img src="/DOCUME~1/James/LOCALS~1/Temp/moz-screenshot-18.jpg" alt="" /></p>
<p><a href="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/2667347951_8043311d7e2.jpg"><img class="alignnone size-medium wp-image-4409" src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/2667347951_8043311d7e2.jpg" alt="" width="300" height="200" /></a> <img src="/DOCUME~1/James/LOCALS~1/Temp/moz-screenshot-17.jpg" alt="" /></p>
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		<title>Why aren&#8217;t Mormons Green?</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/02/23/why-arent-mormons-green/</link>
		<comments>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/02/23/why-arent-mormons-green/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Feb 2009 06:20:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
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		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=4112</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I have lived here in the UK -London for 20 years now and when friends and family come over they sometimes comment on how green we are over here. They observe that most of us dry our clothes on the  line, drive much smaller cars, live in shoe box’s compared to the average size of an American home, walk to the shops, use long life low wattage low energy bulbs, changing windows over for double glazing, doubling up on insulation, are becoming more obsessive about recycling, drive low emission high mpg diesel cars, save left over food, food portions at restaurants smaller and public transport used far more often and readily available. It amazes some of the Brits when they go to Utah to see how big the houses are especially in many cases for so few people who live in them.  Huge Ford Explorers, steak dinners that could feed a typical family of four.  When they go for the first time they come back thinking that it’s a land of excess. I know there have been many of the changes I have described above happening in Utah and throughout the states but there is not quite the buzz or [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/smart-car.bmp"><img class="alignnone size-medium wp-image-4113" src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/smart-car.bmp" alt="" /></a><a href="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/smart-car.bmp"><span id="more-4112"></span></a></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I have lived here in the UK -London for 20 years now and when friends and family come over they sometimes comment on how green we are over here. They observe that most of us dry our clothes on the  line, drive much smaller cars, live in shoe box’s compared to the average size of an American home, walk to the shops, use long life low wattage low energy bulbs, changing windows over for double glazing, doubling up on insulation, are becoming more obsessive about recycling, drive low emission high mpg diesel cars, save left over food, food portions at<span> </span>restaurants smaller and public transport used far more often and readily available.</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">It amazes some of the Brits when they go to Utah to see how big the houses are especially in many cases for so few people who live in them.  Huge Ford Explorers, steak dinners that could feed a typical family of four.  When they go for the first time they come back thinking<span> </span>that it’s a land of excess.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I know there have been many of the changes I have described above happening in Utah and throughout the states but there is not quite the buzz or emphasis on it that I see here at least IMO!</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/american-green.bmp"><img class="aligncenter size-medium wp-image-4115" src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/american-green.bmp" alt="" /></a></p>
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<p><!--[if gte mso 9]&gt;  Normal 0   &lt;![endif]--><!--  /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal 	{mso-style-parent:""; 	margin:0cm; 	margin-bottom:.0001pt; 	mso-pagination:widow-orphan; 	font-size:12.0pt; 	font-family:"Times New Roman"; 	mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink 	{color:blue; 	text-decoration:underline; 	text-underline:single;} a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed 	{color:purple; 	text-decoration:underline; 	text-underline:single;} @page Section1 	{size:612.0pt 792.0pt; 	margin:72.0pt 90.0pt 72.0pt 90.0pt; 	mso-header-margin:36.0pt; 	mso-footer-margin:36.0pt; 	mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 	{page:Section1;}  /* List Definitions */ @list l0 	{mso-list-id:915087228; 	mso-list-type:hybrid; 	mso-list-template-ids:81272292 67698703 67698713 67698715 67698703 67698713 67698715 67698703 67698713 67698715;} ol 	{margin-bottom:0cm;} ul 	{margin-bottom:0cm;} --></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I also have this theory that Mormons aren’t into green issues because</p>
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<ol type="1">
<li class="MsoNormal">Many believe the second      coming will be coming soon (God the creator of this earth will be able to      clean up the planet in a second, our efforts are pointless.</li>
<li class="MsoNormal">We have to get our      priorities right &#8211; family, missionary work, ward service, temple      work.  Being green is definitely not a priority now</li>
<li class="MsoNormal">If it was important the      prophet and apostles would be vigorously emphasizing it during conference.</li>
<li class="MsoNormal">It would be stressed and      accentuated in the manuals</li>
<li class="MsoNormal">Gas guzzling cars &#8211; God      created fossil fuels for our use.  He created this earth and when we      run out God will inspire man to come up with an alternative fuel &#8211; he      always provides for us.</li>
<li class="MsoNormal">God made fossil fuel for      our use and we are fortunate to be Americans and live in a place where      fuel is cheap and are blessed to be here.</li>
<li class="MsoNormal">We have proven ourselves in      the pre-existence and in this life and we deserve the just rewards for      being faithful members</li>
<li class="MsoNormal">An attitude of the more physical stuff I have cars, houses, boats shows were being blessed abundantly</li>
<li class="MsoNormal"><span class="fullpost"><span style="&quot;Times New Roman&quot;;">We have been hearing a lot about fuel and energy—about their high cost and limited supply, our unsafe and unpredictable dependence on their suppliers, and the need for new and sustainable sources of energy. I leave the discussion of these complicated issues to leaders of government and industry. The fuel I want to discuss is spiritual fuel. </span></span><span style="&quot;Times New Roman&quot;;">Elder L. Tom Perry </span></li>
</ol>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Please discuss</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/english-green1.bmp"><img class="aligncenter size-medium wp-image-4117" src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/english-green1.bmp" alt="" /></a></p>
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		<slash:comments>56</slash:comments>
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		<title>Jesus for President!</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/02/18/jesus-for-president/</link>
		<comments>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/02/18/jesus-for-president/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Feb 2009 08:15:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Hawkgrrrl</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Asides]]></category>
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		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=4203</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Many view the Second Coming as a time when Jesus will personally and politically reign, not just host lamb &#38; lion mixers.  So what do you think?  Will Jesus govern politically?  Or is the notion that Jesus will govern politically more of the same wishful thinking that people had the first time around when they thought the Messiah would free them from political oppression by the Romans?  (Weren&#8217;t they disappointed!) Before you give your opinion, here are some more specific questions to consider about an actual government with Jesus at the helm: What kind of government. Will the earth be a theocracy (like Iran) or will there be separation of church and state like in the U.S. (except the deep South and Utah)? Would Jesus be subject to elections?  What if He got voted out? Will there still be dissenting opinions?  Different political parties?  What if someone disagrees with Jesus?  What would He do?  Go all &#8220;cleanse the temple&#8221; on the Senate? Is Jesus a Democrat or Republican  (remember he hung out with both poor people and tax collectors)?  Will He cut through pork barrel spending with a double-edged sword of fire?  Is Jesus good with money (wasn&#8217;t He keeping His [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Many view the Second Coming as a time when Jesus will personally and politically reign, not just host lamb &amp; lion mixers.  So what do you think?  Will Jesus govern politically?  Or is the notion that Jesus will govern politically more of the same wishful thinking that people had the first time around when they thought the Messiah would free them from political oppression by the Romans?  (Weren&#8217;t they disappointed!)<span id="more-4203"></span></p>
<p><img class="alignright" src="http://www.jcnot4me.com/images/Jesus-%20LDS%20Second%20Coming.jpg" alt="" width="204" height="161" />Before you give your opinion, here are some more specific questions to consider about an actual government with Jesus at the helm:</p>
<ol>
<li><strong>What kind of government</strong>.
<ul>
<li>Will the earth be a theocracy (like Iran) or will there be separation of church and state like in the U.S. (except the deep South and Utah)?</li>
<li>Would Jesus be subject to elections?  What if He got voted out?</li>
<li>Will there still be dissenting opinions?  Different political parties?  What if someone disagrees with Jesus?  What would He do?  Go all &#8220;cleanse the temple&#8221; on the Senate?</li>
<li>Is Jesus a Democrat or Republican  (remember he hung out with both poor people and tax collectors)?  Will He cut through pork barrel spending with a double-edged sword of fire?  Is Jesus good with money (wasn&#8217;t He keeping His money in a live fish last time)?</li>
</ul>
</li>
<li><strong>Role of churches</strong>.
<ul>
<li>Will there be a &#8220;church&#8221; during the millenium?  Why would there be?  Isn&#8217;t the church like the babysitter while the Savior&#8217;s away?  Remember, there wasn&#8217;t a church per se when He was on the earth.  He created a movement.  The disciples created a church to keep the movement going and provide support to new followers.  At the least, He could reduce the three-hour block.</li>
<li>Will there be various churches then?  Will some be non-Christian?</li>
<li>Will there be a mass conversion to one faith or at least Christianity?  Will there be apostates after that?</li>
</ul>
</li>
<li><strong>Culture</strong>.
<ul>
<li>What kind of shows would be on TV?  Would everyone be self-censoring?  Would there be less taking of the name of God in vain?</li>
<li>Would WWJD shirts &amp; caps be irrelevant or an even bigger seller now that we know the answer to the question?</li>
</ul>
</li>
<li><strong>Jesus as a Leader</strong>.  What kind of political leader would Jesus be?
<ul>
<li>A great communicator (if you have ears to hear anyway).</li>
<li>Your basic delegator.</li>
<li>He might host some amazing parties (His reputation as a wine-bibber), but none of the cool people will be invited (expect guys in tin foil hats and aging hookers based on His friends the first time around).</li>
<li>Would He do interviews with Larry King?  Stephen Colbert?</li>
</ul>
</li>
</ol>
<p>So, do you take this idea literally?  If so, what do you think it will be like?  Do you fall into the &#8220;it will be so different than things are now that we can&#8217;t fathom it&#8221; (because if so, I guess I would just say &#8220;people are people&#8221;)?  Discuss.</p>
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		<item>
		<title>Authority Problem? Why not morality?</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/01/29/authority-problem-why-not-morality/</link>
		<comments>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/01/29/authority-problem-why-not-morality/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jan 2009 08:59:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Andrew S</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[church]]></category>
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		<category><![CDATA[Jonathan Haidt]]></category>
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		<category><![CDATA[Moral foundations theory]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Morality]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=3897</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[About a week ago (if I&#8217;ve got this newfangled blog software system set up and can submit this article correctly this time, that is [what's worse is that I use this stuff for my own blog, actually {sorry guys; I'm really breaking the blog fourth wall here}]), Hawkgrrrl wrote about The Problem with Morality. In it, she raised that oft-repeated idea that Mormons are so unquestioningly obedient to their authority leaders that &#8220;when the prophet has spoken, the thinking is done.&#8221; She raises this up in a somewhat negative light (and haven&#8217;t you seen it brought up in a negative light?) Usually&#8230;someone is criticizing the church or its members for taking such an obedient position. Now, I&#8217;m not going to be the one to say that the church and its members members shouldn&#8217;t be criticized for obedience, because hey, I&#8217;m definitely not the little advocate that could. But, I&#8217;d like to think I can see clearly enough (even if I may be looking through a glass, darkly [every time I try to refer to that scripture I nearly write "A Scanner Darkly" -- a movie (novel) I have actually never seen (read) and don't even know what it's about...but oh [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>About a week ago (if I&#8217;ve got this newfangled blog software system set up and can submit this article correctly this time, that is [what's worse is that I use this stuff for my own blog, actually {sorry guys; I'm really breaking the blog fourth wall here}]), Hawkgrrrl wrote about <a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2009/01/20/the-problem-with-authority/">The Problem with Morality</a>. In it, she raised that oft-repeated idea that Mormons are so unquestioningly obedient to their authority leaders that &#8220;when the prophet has spoken, the thinking is done.&#8221; She raises this up in a somewhat negative light (and haven&#8217;t you seen it brought up in a negative light?) Usually&#8230;someone is <em>criticizing </em>the church or its members for taking such an obedient position.<span id="more-3897"></span></p>
<p>Now, I&#8217;m not going to be the one to say that the church and its members members shouldn&#8217;t be criticized for obedience, because hey, I&#8217;m definitely not the little advocate that could. But, I&#8217;d like to think I can see clearly enough (even if I may be looking through a glass, darkly [every time I try to refer to that scripture I nearly write "A Scanner Darkly" -- a movie (novel) I have actually never seen (read) and don't even know what it's about...but oh well]) to recognize that a considerable amount of people value obedience, and that it seems to work and provide benefit for many. It&#8217;s not something that can be rationalized away as merely &#8220;brainwashing&#8221; or whatever else people might use.</p>
<p>Hawkgrrrl had brought out big guns like the Power-Distance Index, and while that seems intriguing enough to me, one thing <a href="http://irresistibledisgrace.wordpress.com/2009/01/18/ideals-morality-and-the-divide-between-conservative-and-liberal/">I had been writing about on my blog</a> is <a href="http://people.virginia.edu/~jdh6n/">Jonathan Haidt</a>&#8216;s <a href="http://faculty.virginia.edu/haidtlab/mft/index.php">Moral Foundations Theory</a>.</p>
<p>I think this meshes quite well with the PDI that Hawkgrrrl spoke of&#8230;after all, the &#8220;cultural expectation of respect for hierarchy&#8221; matches <em>very</em> well with Haidt&#8217;s own idea about respect/authority being a foundation of morality. Haidt proposes (and of course, his work is still in progress) that whereas liberal thinkers might emphasis 2-foundation moralities centered on care/harm and fairness/reciprocity (see: Hawkgrrrl&#8217;s description of low-PDI individuals or nations), conservative and religious thinkers emphasize three more foundations as well: respect/authority, ingroup/loyalty, and purity/sanctity. (This isn&#8217;t to say that &#8216;liberal&#8217; or &#8216;secular&#8217; thinkers don&#8217;t value these things&#8230;as you can still see liberal or secular &#8220;ingroups&#8221;&#8230;or reworked senses of purity and sanctity based instead on health diet or environmentalism.)</p>
<p>So if this kind of theory is on the right track (and several are suggesting that it might be incomplete), then it would explain why, for example, faithful groups and secular groups, liberal and conservative, traditional and revolutionary, etc., don&#8217;t get along. Their emphasized moral foundations are at odds with each other. Even worse, why one group so often <em>can&#8217;t possibly</em> imagine seeing the other eye to eye. If one evaluates situations in terms of care and fairness, then some actions that emphasize loyalty to authority at the expense of these things are not going to be justifiable.</p>
<p>I guess I probably skimped out on the explanation and detailing of Haidt&#8217;s actual theory and what each foundation entails (but then again, I&#8217;ve broken this down <a href="http://irresistibledisgrace.wordpress.com/2009/01/18/ideals-morality-and-the-divide-between-conservative-and-liberal/">twice</a> <a href="http://latterdaymainstreet.com/?p=457">before</a> now and am lazy&#8230;) The bold question is&#8230;could you see this being the case? Can such a time-tested difference in personalities, <a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2008/11/18/history-as-narrative-fallacy/">nearly automatic emotional analyses</a>, and personal moralities really be on the verge of being broken down into emphases on different values (with partial blindness to the other values?)</p>
<p>And if such a scenario were true, then what would that say about the church&#8217;s efforts? Should the church go full speed ahead with emphasis (whether scriptural or merely cultural exaggeration) on obedience, &#8220;fitting with&#8221; the ingroup, being pure and staying strong with traditional values (even when these things might sometimes come into conflict with other values and alienate some members and nonmembers)&#8230;after all, perhaps it could be that these parts of the church are worth keeping no matter if some people are turned off by it. Or should the church consider <a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2008/09/17/churches-are-made-for-the-ninety-and-nine-what-about-the-one/">emphasizing different ways to believe as being more legitimate so as to draw more in</a>? For truly, there <em>are</em> so-called liberal religions &#8212; they just downplay certain parts and reemphasize other parts to make the same books and doctrines <em>that the conservatives use</em> appeal to different crowds. And in fact, the church itself has enough scripture and doctrine in its own repertoire that, if it wanted, it could appeal to both sides.</p>
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		<item>
		<title>Horus Bible Parallels</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/01/25/horus-bible-parallels/</link>
		<comments>http://mormonmatters.org/2009/01/25/horus-bible-parallels/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Jan 2009 06:05:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
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		<description><![CDATA[Recently I saw Religulous here and he touched on Horus here and a few of the parallels between the story of Horus and Jesus. Many Mormons when they start delving and  unravelling events in our history also delve into what they can find out about (possible origins) to the bible or even if you want to say conspiracy theories. Horus is one I have heard of members in our church and Christians of all faiths looking into as they go deeper into their historical studies of the Bible. Look at some of the comparisons sited by religious tolerance Event Horus Yeshua of Nazareth, a.k.a. Jesus Conception: By a virgin. There is some doubt about this matter By a virgin. 8 Father: Only begotten son of the God Osiris. Only begotten son of Yehovah (in the form of the Holy Spirit). Mother: Meri. 9 Miriam (a.k.a. Mary). Foster father: Seb, (Jo-Seph). 9 Joseph. Foster father&#8217;s ancestry: Of royal descent. Of royal descent. Birth location: In a cave. In a cave or stable. Annunciation: By an angel to Isis, his mother. By an angel to Miriam, his mother. 8 Birth heralded by: The star Sirius, the morning star. An unidentified &#8220;star in [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/horus3.bmp"><img class="size-medium wp-image-3879 aligncenter" src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/horus3.bmp" alt="" width="223" height="133" /></a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Recently I saw Religulous </span><a href="http://www.lionsgate.com/religulous/">here</a><span> and he touched on Horus </span><a href="http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=SIMFz5ZKDVo">here</a> <span>and a few of the parallels between the story of Horus and Jesus.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Many Mormons when they start delving and  unravelling events in our history also delve into what they can find out about (possible origins) </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span id="more-3878"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>to the bible or even if you want to say conspiracy theories. Horus is one I have heard of members in our church and Christians of all faiths looking into as they go deeper into their historical studies of the Bible. Look at some of the comparisons sited by religious tolerance</span></p>
<p><!--[if gte mso 9]&gt;  Normal 0   &lt;![endif]--></p>
<table border="1" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td width="189" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><strong><span>Event</span></strong></p>
</td>
<td width="255" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><strong><span>Horus</span></strong></p>
</td>
<td width="266" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><strong><span>Yeshua of Nazareth, a.k.a. Jesus</span></strong></p>
</td>
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<tr>
<td width="189" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Conception:</span></p>
</td>
<td width="255" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>By a virgin. There is <a href="http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa5.htm#vb">some doubt</a> about this matter</span></p>
</td>
<td width="266" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>By a virgin. <strong><sub>8</sub></strong></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="189" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Father: </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--></p>
</td>
<td width="255" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Only begotten son of the God Osiris. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--></p>
</td>
<td width="266" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Only begotten son of Yehovah (in the form of the Holy   Spirit).</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="189" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Mother: </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--></p>
</td>
<td width="255" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Meri. <strong><sub>9</sub></strong> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--></p>
</td>
<td width="266" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Miriam (a.k.a. Mary).</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="189" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Foster father:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--></p>
</td>
<td width="255" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Seb, (Jo-Seph). <strong><sub>9</sub></strong> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--></p>
</td>
<td width="266" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Joseph.</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="189" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Foster father&#8217;s ancestry: </span></p>
</td>
<td width="255" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Of royal descent. </span></p>
</td>
<td width="266" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Of royal descent.</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="189" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Birth location: </span></p>
</td>
<td width="255" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>In a cave. </span></p>
</td>
<td width="266" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>In a cave or stable.</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="189" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Annunciation: </span></p>
</td>
<td width="255" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>By an angel to Isis, his mother. </span></p>
</td>
<td width="266" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>By an angel to Miriam, his mother. <strong><sub>8</sub></strong></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="189" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Birth heralded by: </span></p>
</td>
<td width="255" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>The star Sirius, the morning star. </span></p>
</td>
<td width="266" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>An unidentified &#8220;<em>star in the East.</em>&#8220;</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="189" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Birth date: </span></p>
</td>
<td width="255" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Ancient Egyptians paraded a manger and child representing Horus   through the streets at the time of the <a href="http://www.religioustolerance.org/winter_solstice.htm">winter solstice</a> (typically DEC-21</span></p>
</td>
<td width="266" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Celebrated on DEC-25. The date was chosen to occur on the   same date as the birth of Mithra, Dionysus and the Sol Invictus   (unconquerable Sun), etc.</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="189" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Birth announcement</span></p>
</td>
<td width="255" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>: By angels. </span></p>
</td>
<td width="266" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>By angels. <strong><sub>8</sub></strong></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="189" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Birth witnesses: </span></p>
</td>
<td width="255" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Shepherds. </span></p>
</td>
<td width="266" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Shepherds. <strong><sub>8</sub></strong></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="189" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Later witnesses to birth: </span></p>
</td>
<td width="255" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Three solar deities. </span></p>
</td>
<td width="266" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Three wise men. <strong><sub>8</sub></strong></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="189" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Death threat during infancy: </span></p>
</td>
<td width="255" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Herut tried to have Horus murdered. </span></p>
</td>
<td width="266" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Herod tried to have Jesus murdered.</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="189" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Handling the threat: </span></p>
</td>
<td width="255" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>The God <em>That</em> tells Horus&#8217; mother &#8220;<em>Come,   thou goddess Isis, hide thyself with thy child.</em>&#8221; </span></p>
</td>
<td width="266" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>An angel tells Jesus&#8217; father to: &#8220;<em>Arise and take   the young child and his mother and flee into Egypt.</em>&#8220;</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="189" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Rite of passage ritual: </span></p>
</td>
<td width="255" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Horus came of age with a special ritual,  when his   eye was restored. </span></p>
</td>
<td width="266" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Taken by parents to the temple for what is today called a   bar mitzvah ritual.</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="189" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Age at the ritual: </span></p>
</td>
<td width="255" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>12 </span></p>
</td>
<td width="266" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>12</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="189" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Break in life history: </span></p>
</td>
<td width="255" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>No data between ages of 12 &amp; 30. </span></p>
</td>
<td width="266" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>No data between ages of 12 &amp; 30.</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="189" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Baptism location: </span></p>
</td>
<td width="255" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>In the river Eridanus. </span></p>
</td>
<td width="266" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>In the river Jordan.</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="189" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Age at baptism: </span></p>
</td>
<td width="255" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>30. </span></p>
</td>
<td width="266" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>30.</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="189" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Baptized by: </span></p>
</td>
<td width="255" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Anup the Baptiser. </span></p>
</td>
<td width="266" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>John the Baptist.</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="189" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Subsequent fate of the baptiser: </span></p>
</td>
<td width="255" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Beheaded. </span></p>
</td>
<td width="266" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Beheaded.</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="189" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Temptation:.</span></p>
</td>
<td width="255" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Taken from the desert in Palestine up a high mountain by   his arch-rival Satan</span></p>
</td>
<td width="266" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Taken from the desert of Amenta up a high mountain by his   arch-rival Sut. Sut (a.k.a. Set) was a precursor for the Hebrew Satan.</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="189" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Result of temptation: </span></p>
</td>
<td width="255" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Horus resists temptation. </span></p>
</td>
<td width="266" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Jesus resists temptation.</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="189" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Close followers: </span></p>
</td>
<td width="255" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Twelve disciples. There is <a href="http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa5.htm#dis">some doubt</a> about this matter as well. </span></p>
</td>
<td width="266" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Twelve disciples.</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="189" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Activities: </span></p>
</td>
<td width="255" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Walked on water, cast out demons, healed the sick,   restored sight to the blind. He &#8220;<em>stilled the sea by his power</em>.&#8221; </span></p>
</td>
<td width="266" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Walked on water, cast out demons, healed the sick,   restored sight to the blind. He ordered the sea with a &#8220;<em>Peace, be   still</em>&#8221; command.</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="189" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Raising of the dead: </span></p>
</td>
<td width="255" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Horus raised Osirus, his dead father,  from the   grave. <strong><sub>10</sub></strong> </span></p>
</td>
<td width="266" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Jesus raised Lazarus from the grave.</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="189" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Location where the resurrection miracle occurred: 11.</span></p>
</td>
<td width="255" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Anu, an Egyptian city where the rites of the death, burial   and resurrection of Horus were enacted annually. <strong><sub>10</sub></strong> </span></p>
</td>
<td width="266" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Hebrews added their prefix for house (&#8216;<em>beth</em>&#8220;)   to &#8220;<em>Anu</em>&#8221; to produce <em>&#8220;Beth-Anu&#8221;</em> or the   &#8220;<em>House of Anu</em>.&#8221; Since &#8220;u&#8221; and &#8220;y&#8221; were   interchangeable in antiquity, &#8220;<em>Bethanu</em>&#8221; became &#8220;<em>Bethany</em>,&#8221;   the location mentioned in John</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="189" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Transfigured: </span></p>
</td>
<td width="255" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>On a mountain</span></p>
</td>
<td width="266" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>On a high mountain.</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="189" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Key address(es): </span></p>
</td>
<td width="255" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Sermon on the Mount..</span></p>
</td>
<td width="266" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Sermon on the Mount; Sermon on the Plain</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="189" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Method of death </span></p>
</td>
<td width="255" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>By crucifixion</span></p>
</td>
<td width="266" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>. By crucifixion.</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="189" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Accompanied by: </span></p>
</td>
<td width="255" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Two thieves. </span></p>
</td>
<td width="266" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Two thieves.</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="189" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Burial </span></p>
</td>
<td width="255" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>In a tomb. </span></p>
</td>
<td width="266" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>In a tomb.</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="189" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Fate after death: </span></p>
</td>
<td width="255" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Descended into Hell; resurrected after three days. </span></p>
</td>
<td width="266" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Descended into Hell; resurrected after about 30 to 38   hours (Friday PM to presumably some time in Sunday AM) covering parts of   three days.</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="189" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Resurrection announced by: </span></p>
</td>
<td width="255" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Women. </span></p>
</td>
<td width="266" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Women.</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="189" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Future: </span></p>
</td>
<td width="255" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Reign for 1,000 years in the Millennium. </span></p>
</td>
<td width="266" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Reign for 1,000 years in the Millennium.</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--></span></p>
<p><!--[if gte mso 9]&gt;  Normal 0   &lt;![endif]--></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Questions</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Is this whole thing grasping at straws or is it uncanny the parallels between the two stories of Horus and Jesus?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Please Discuss <span><br />
</span>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--></span></p>
<p><span>Notes: </span><a href="http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa5.htm">Religous Tolerance</a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">
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