Mormon Matters

174–175: The Chaplains on . . . Suffering

Dan Wotherspoon — Mon, 20 May 2013 06:47:16 +0000

When we meet someone who is suffering, whether physically or emotionally, we naturally want to be of service to them. Sometimes our fears overcome us, and we avoid opportunities we’re presented with to “bear one another’s burdens” or “mourn with those who mourn” (Mosiah 18:8–9). Other times we step in but viscerally feel our inadequacies. Sometimes we realize our good intentions have gone wrong, and we have said something or done something that has caused even greater pain. Sometimes this happens without our even realizing it. Even with its many challenges, we are all called to learn compassion, to be with each other even in extremity. How can we do this better?

In this episode, we talk about all of these things and much more with three persons who are extremely experienced with providing care for those (and the families and friends of those) in great pain, mental or physical duress, as well as those dying: LDS military or hospice chaplains Phil McLemore, Nathan Kline, and Jason Unsworth.

Part 1 (Episode 174) focuses primarily upon the “meaning” of suffering, examining a dozen or more views from religions west and east, Mormonism, and secular framings in psychology and psychotherapies. The panelists wrestle with theodicy (well-intentioned attempts to explain why God would allow the world to be the way it is, including all its pain) and its general inadequacies—especially in pastoral situations. The discussion also examines the role of lamentation and protest as paths toward possible healing, as well as emphasizing the key importance of what theologian Stanley Hauerwas calls “communities of care.”

Part 2 (Episode 175) moves to best pastoral practices, the role of empathy and compassion, and how we might learn to “be with” a sufferer in the most supportive of ways without the expectation that we can heal them and take their pain way. Through stories and reflections on scripture, and drawing from their broad training, the chaplains offer a variety of approaches that experience has shown them to be the most satisfying even if situations remain tragic. The discussion also suggests directions listeners might look should they want to learn to read or think more deeply about pastoral care (whether as bishop or some other church calling, or as family and friends) for those in dire stress.

With this episode, we also officially announce our intention to make “The Chaplains
on . . . ” a regular series in which every few months this panel takes on a new topic. Ideally the shows will focus on themes of your choosing. Please suggest ideas for future topics! Feel free to make your suggestions below, or if you’d like, please write to Mormon Matters host Dan Wotherspoon at mormonmatters@gmail.com.

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Additional materials:

Mormon Matters Episode on The Problem of Evil and Suffering (More philosophical than this episode but also a much deeper dive into specific LDS scriptures and views.)

Loyd Ericson, “‘Which Thing I Had Never Supposed’: The Problem of Evil and the Problem of Man” (Sunstone, June 2010)

Jacob Baker, “Theologizing in the Presence of Burning Children: From Theodicy to Lament” (Sunstone, June 2012)

“If We Could See Inside Others’ Hearts” (Short video that is not at all subtle but still kind of neat. Focusing on empathy.)

172–173: Proactive LDS Parenting

Dan Wotherspoon — Sat, 04 May 2013 04:57:25 +0000

Most Latter-day Saints who are negotiating a faith transition, including developing a new relationship with God and the church in which they were nurtured, naturally hope to create a smoother road for their children than they have had themselves. For those who find themselves in this new faith terrain and who still have a strong desire to stay active and raise their children within the Mormon fold, key tasks emerge. How do we parent in such a way that our children will come to feel a rich connection with their faith tradition? How do we help them develop a true sense of belonging while still encouraging them to take responsibility for their own faith, to have a genuine sense of self? How do we convey and help them see and experience Mormonism’s many wonderful offerings while at the same time work to mitigate the effects of some of the misguided and dangerous messaging that strike us as unhealthy. In short, how do we pro-actively parent within a tradition and community in which there is both so much good and so many well-intentioned but potentially harmful messages and practices?

In this episode, panelists Brent Beal, Paul Barker, and Aimee Heffernan, join Mormon Matters host Dan Wotherspoon in a discussion of the Mormonism they all love, what it is that they worry most about their children encountering through their engagement with church and culture, and what messages above all they hope to convey to their children and what are the “best practices” they have tried or plan to try as they raise them within the Church.

Please listen and share your concerns as well as best practices below!

170–171: Toward Expanding and Improving LDS Discourse about Sexuality

Dan Wotherspoon — Tue, 23 Apr 2013 04:37:07 +0000

So often in Mormon discourse, the term “virtue” is treated almost exclusively as relating to sexual purity, chastity, and virginity, completely missing its much broader and wonderfully expansive meanings. Similarly, most talk about “morality,” “passion,” “modesty,” and “sensuality” are spoken about almost solely in terms of sexuality. We receive, without careful parsing, statements about how molestation and rape victims have been deprived of “that which was most dear and precious above all things, which is chastity and virtue” (Moroni 9:9). Messaging and publications for youth still put forth the idea that sexual sins are “next to murder” in seriousness, never mind that this idea is based upon highly questionable scriptural exegesis and a failure to recognize horrendous evils that can’t even come close to approaching soul dangers associated with sexual experimentation and slip up. And rarely do we encounter public teaching that considers all those within the listening audience for whom extreme rhetoric about sexual sin will be harmful and discouraging, and who because of such messaging will more likely be driven away from a sense of their being deserving of God’s love and LDS community fellowship.

Why is it so difficult for us to talk forthrightly and in healthy ways about sexuality, especially in teaching our youth? Why do we imagine willful ignorance about our bodies and sexual response and pleasures as admirable? How can we bring into LDS families and communal teaching the best thinking and practices about teaching healthy sexuality to our youth and young adults, and also aid those who are married and sexually active yet may still hold negative views about themselves as sexual beings? (And none of this research and best thinking requires the encouragement of sex outside of marriage.) Mormonism has great theological teachings about the body and about sex. Why are we failing to communicate the big picture when it comes to the messaging we give? How might we do better?

In this episode, Natasha Helfer Parker, Margaret Blair Young, Micah Nickolaisen, and Lisa Butterworth join Mormon Matters host Dan Wotherspoon in a frank and forthright discussion of these and other aspects of how to talk in healthier ways about sexuality. We hope you’ll listen and then make comments and join in the discussion below.

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Links:

Lisa Butterworth’s Feminist Mormon Housewives post about how Virtue Cannot Be Stolen

Micah Nickolaisen’s A Thoughtful Faith post about Virtue

Natasha Helfer Parker and Jennifer Finlayson-Fife’s Mormon Stories podcast episode on LDS Women’s Sexuality

Michael Ash’s Sunstone article giving an alternative view of The Sin Next to Murder

Healing from Sexual Abuse, by Chieko N. Okazaki (thanks Josh for linking in the comments section below!)

166–169: The Couplet (and Teachings about Theosis) in Today’s Mormonism

Dan Wotherspoon — Sat, 30 Mar 2013 02:21:08 +0000

The 2013 LDS Priesthood and Relief Society manual, Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Lorenzo Snow, features a lesson, “The Grand Destiny of the Faithful” (Chapter 5) in which one of President Snow’s most famous teachings makes a fresh appearance. Often referred to as “The Couplet,” it states: “As man now is, God once was: As God now is, man may be.”Encountering this teaching in an official Church publication has been surprising to many Church watchers who have noticed in the past couple of decades a dramatic drop off in LDS comfort levels with the teaching that we human beings are on a progression path that God once traveled, and that with continued growth and development of divine qualities we can one day become Gods ourselves. So what’s going on? Why was this teaching de-emphasized? Does its appearance in the manual signal a shift from recent preferences to publicly emphasize similarities between Mormon thought and that of mainline Christianity to a willingness to more explicitly embrace differences? And, for that matter, are teachings about theosis or divinization actually all that unusual when one considers the entire arc of Christian teaching?

In this episode, panelists Danielle Mooney, Charley Harrell, and Tom Roberts join Mormon Matters host Dan Wotherspoon for a thorough look at this teaching within Mormonism, as well as the wider Christian world, especially in Eastern and Greek Orthodox Christianity and the writings of early thinkers who provided the impetus for the directions they took separate from what became Roman Catholicism. Fascinating, rich stuff! The panel explores the history of “couplet” theology, including one of the early forms it took in Brigham Young’s teaching about Adam as God, and discuss possible reasons for its fall from the public sphere and recent reappearance. It also takes a strong look at black Latter-day Saints and women, for whom the ideas expressed in couplet (or, at least the contexts in which it rose and were commented on by Church leaders) have been particularly problematic. Can the doctrine of theosis be separated from the difficult assumptions that have been linked to it?

Parts 1 and 2 (#166 & #167) present an historical overview of the couplet and divinization teachings in Mormonism and Christianity.

Parts 3 and 4 (#168 & #169) examine it in concert with the Adam-God Theory, teachings about blacks and women (in particular the close tie with ideas entailed in polygamy theologies), and comparisons and contrasts between Mormon teachings about the eternal and uncreated nature of all things and the idea of creation ex nihilo held to by much of the Christian world, though not so thoroughly in Eastern Christianities.

We look forward to you listening and then sharing your thoughts in the comments section below!

165: Mormon Women Sharing Their Lives

Dan Wotherspoon — Thu, 21 Mar 2013 20:53:21 +0000

This past week saw the publication of a book, Mormon Women Have Their Say (Greg Kofford Books), which is comprised of essays drawn from research into Mormon women’s histories that have been prompted by or collected as part of Claremont Graduate University’s Oral History Program.

In this episode, the book’s editors, Claudia L. Bushman and Caroline Kline, speak about the project and book, and they share some of their favorite passages and what they reveal about LDS women’s lives and the ways they negotiate tensions between faith and culture, as well as their desires to be supportive and part of a community while maintaining authenticity in an organization that often does not often encourage them to share their voice and complex experience. They also share how Mormon women can become part of the project themselves, either as interviewers, interviewees, or writers of their own histories.

As discussed in the episode, if you would like to find out more information about either producing content or having your story become part of this project, please write to Mormon Matters host Dan Wotherspoon at mormonmatters@gmail.com. Dan will pass along your query to Claudia Bushman, who will then initiate contact with you.

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Click here to learn more about, or to order, Mormon Women Have Their Say: Essays From the Claremont Oral History Collection.

164: New Version of the LDS Scriptures

Dan Wotherspoon — Sat, 16 Mar 2013 02:23:03 +0000

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has just announced the online release of a new edition of the LDS scriptures, with physical copies to be made available beginning in August. Although the new version includes some spelling and punctuation changes along with minor tweaks to fonts and layout, the vast majority of the changes are to study materials, including to chapter headings and introductions to the various texts—some of them quite substantive, especially when seen as signals to an increased openness to admitting historical and doctrinal development.

In this episode, panelists Gina Colvin, Charley Harrell, and Ben Park join Mormon Matters host Dan Wotherspoon in an early evaluation of the changes. Attuned to history and the way texts shape cultures, including Mormonism’s, they go over the Church’s announced reasons for doing what they’ve done with headings and section introductions, focusing on interesting specifics such as elimination of Jesus Christ from any Old Testament chapter headings. The examine the major changes to the descriptions of the Book of Abraham in the Pearl of Great Price, along with those for Official Declarations 1 and 2. The panel members are also excellent observers of the meta messages embedded in the changes, and they offer takes about what the Church seems to be growing more comfortable in responding to, and where it is still quite tentative.

Even if you have read the announcement articles and poked around a bit in the online versions and summaries, there is still much in this discussion that should catch your attention! We hope you will listen and contribute to the conversation in the comments below.

159–163: An Easter Primer

Dan Wotherspoon — Wed, 13 Mar 2013 05:07:35 +0000

One of Mormon Matters podcast’s most popular episodes explored Christmas through a close examination of scriptural narratives and traditions related to the Nativity as they unfolded through the centuries of Christian history. One of the reasons for this episode’s popularity was the information it provided for Latter-day Saints about many aspects of Christmas celebrated and explored in wider Christianity that never fully became part of Mormon traditions.

We’re at it again, this time focusing on Easter. With a forty-day Lenten season that flows to a conclusion in Holy Week and its beautiful rituals, for many Christians, Easter (even more than Christmas) marks the spiritual high point of the year. At no other time do sacred time and space collapse quite so easily, with events and liturgies and encouragements that lead people in sustained reflection about not only their gratitude for Christ and their beliefs and hopes about salvation, but even more generally, the renewal of aspirations, plans, and energies. And while Mormons join with the rest of the Christian world in basic beliefs about Christ’s resurrection and central role in salvation, and they, too, celebrate Easter, they don’t do it in quite as sustained a manner as many other Christian traditions who carry into their worship centuries-long traditions and fully developed music and liturgies and portals into the mysteries of the resurrection miracle.

In this five-part series, the same amazing panel who shared about Christmas—Jared Anderson, Zina Petersen, and Kristine Haglund—join Mormon Matters host Dan Wotherspoon on a journey through scripture, history, worship, and celebration related to Easter. Designed to be informative about elements with which Mormons in general are not all that familiar, it also explores different presentations of Christ’s final acts on earth in the various Gospels and scriptural tradition, the range of views about what “resurrection” means, how Christian and Pagan traditions interacted to create the mix of elements we find in Easter season, and how these elements combined to create some of the world’s greatest music, poetry, and pageantry. But it also explores personal realms. How do each of the panelists integrate a love for Easter themes, claims, symbols, and rituals with their own empirically oriented and critical brains? What is happening in their hearts and minds as they celebrate Easter?

The podcast totals nearly five hours. It’s a huge bite, and it can certainly be taken slowly.

A brief guide to the parts:

Parts 1 and 2 (episodes 159 and 160) focus primarily upon the scriptural record, with its earliest layers, differences between texts, interaction with Jewish elements, the “empty tomb” traditions as separate from “resurrection appearances.” They explore various Christological theories and their different approaches to the idea of resurrection. Listen also for some really great poetry and fresh angles that would make great sermon materials.

Parts 3 and 4 (episodes 161 and 162) take us from the early church to the middle ages and on through the centuries, helping us understand the development of various traditions and interactions with solar and lunar cycles and their feasts and celebrations. These also contain great information about and peeks into the beauties of Lent, Holy Week, rituals such as meditations on the “stations of the cross,” and much more. History and aesthetics! What could be better?

Part 5 (episode 162) features the panelists and host sharing their own Easter experiences and reflections on myth and ritual, rational thought and the mysteries of spirituality.

We very much hope you’ll enjoy these episodes! Please use the comments section below to share your own reflections on Easter and all that this season means to you.

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Check back for links to various resources.

157–158: C.S. Lewis and Mormonism

Dan Wotherspoon — Tue, 05 Mar 2013 02:47:51 +0000

C.S. Lewis is a towering twentieth-century figure, known especially as an author of fiction and meditations on Christianity and the work of God in human lives. His own life journey—he was born and raised within a Christian home and was a highly imaginative child who loved literature and mythology but later rejected both Christianity and theism only to, in his twenties and thirties, begin to feel “stalked” by Spirit and eventually convert back to a belief in God and, later, Christianity—makes him especially compelling for those with intellectual proclivities. How could this towering intellect begin to believe again? What is it he saw in the Christian mythos that led him to see it differently than other myths in which divine beings overcome death?

As such a startling and influential figure, Lewis naturally caught, and still catches, the attention of many Mormons who find in his wonderful writing and fresh angles on familiar teachings much that bolsters their own Christian faith. But, for some (in a move that is repeated in many other Christian traditions) Lewis has taken on a glow almost as an honorary Latter-day Saint. They see in various phrases things that seem to really tap into unique ideas found in Mormonism.

In this episode, Mormon Matters host Dan Wotherspoon and panelists Mahonri Stewart, Blair Hodges, and Katie Langston examine this connection to Mormon thinking, but even more generally Lewis’s life and writings and impact both in religious conversation at large as well as in their own lives. Especially within their own lives and spiritual journey.

Episode 157 introduces Lewis’s life and writings and connections with broad themes and to what extent he has been quoted in LDS writings and General Conferences and/or has become a Mormon by proxy. Short answer: not as much as we may have thought.

Episode 158 continues the LDS connection, asking just how similar is his theology to Mormon thought before the panelists share some of their favorite and most-powerful-to-them insights from his work.

Please listen and join in the conversation below! What have been your most profound moments with Lewis? How has his life and work most affected your spiritual journey?

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Links to things mentioned in the discussion:

Mahonri Stewart’s play, Swallow the Sun, available here.

Text of a talk on C.S. Lewis given by Mahonri Stewart at the Springville (Utah) Public Library, 21 June 2012.

Blair Hodges’s article, “‘All Find What They Truly Seek’: C.S. Lewis, Latter-day Saints, and the Virtuous Unbeliever,” Dialogue 43, no. 3 (Fall 2010).

Blog about spiritual seeking that Katie Langston is involved with: Into the Hills.

Marybeth Raynes, “How Sex and Spirit are Linked: A Developmental Perspective,” Sunstone, November 2001.

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Additional links:

Patheos Book Club posts about the book, C.S. Lewis: A Life, by Alister McGrath

Links shared by listener “Niklas” in Comments Section:

The Christian Commitment: C. S. Lewis and the Defense of Doctrine
by William Clayton Kimball in BYU Studies
https://byustudies.byu.edu/showTitle.aspx?title=5002

The Last Battle: C.S. Lewis and Mormonism
by Evan Stephenson in Dialogue
http://dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V30N04_55.pdf

Book “C.S. Lewis: Latter-day Truths in Narnia”
by Marianna Richardson and Christine Thackeray
also mentioned in
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705308607/What-CS-Lewis-thought-about-Mormons.html?pg=all

155–156: LDS Military Chaplains

Dan Wotherspoon — Fri, 22 Feb 2013 05:53:39 +0000

This two-part episode offers a wonderful peek into military chaplaincy, a career unlike any other, and, in particular, experiences of LDS chaplains. Two active duty LDS Army chaplains—Nathan Kline and Jason Unsworth—and one retired LDS Air Force chaplain—Phil McLemore—share the history of chaplaincy and how it has evolved since even before the beginning of the American Revolution, what it takes to become a chaplain today, the many roles chaplains play, the particular pressures they face, as well as the incredible opportunities it provides for unique service and spiritual vistas. This conversation describes first hand what is sometimes called a “ministry of presence,” taking us from combat theaters in Iraq and Afghanistan, to counseling offices and base ministries, to sitting by hospital bedsides as mentally and physically wounded soldiers try to sort through the tragedies that have befallen them and find scraps of hope from which to build up new lives. It’s an amazing discussion that both educates (inner workings of the military, support services for LDS military personnel) and heartens through insights that were birthed in intense circumstances but which wildly transcend those origins and are applicable and uplifting to us all.

Please listen to this discussion and share your thoughts below.

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Link to Chaplain Kline’s blog (includes many photos) about his experiences between 2005 and 2008, including deployment in Iraq. Please explore!

Link to LDS.org information about LDS military chaplaincy

153–154: Integrity with Self and Family: Parents on Sharing Their Faith Transitions with Their Children

Dan Wotherspoon — Fri, 15 Feb 2013 05:19:35 +0000

This episode continues a series of conversations about parents and children communicating about changes in faith perspectives. Episode 146 featured faithful, committed Latter-day Saint parents whose children shared with them their movement away from their earlier firm beliefs in Mormon truth claims. This current episode also features LDS parents, this time, however, the parents are the ones undergoing a faith transition and are wrestling with (or have already) how much of that change to share with their faithful, committed Mormon children. The three parents featured here—Carey, Jeff, and Gail—have each approached these questions differently. We learn about their own faith journeys, their stories of sharing or not sharing with their believing children, how they approach(ed) these conversations, if their fears were realized or if they received wonderful, affirming responses, as well as if and how would they go back and change things, if they would want to.

This conversation is just a starter, with many perspectives and experience types not represented. Please listen and share your experiences below, or please contact host Dan Wotherspoon (see address below) about possibly being on a future episode. We are also currently looking for grown children who are still faithful Mormons to share their experiences of being on the receiving end of a conversation in which a parent has shared about their transitioning away from traditional LDS belief.

Note: This episode uses just first names (and one is a pseudonym) in order to add a layer of protection from web searches. However, all the panelists welcome anyone reaching out to engage them privately. If you’d like to get in touch directly with any of the participants, please contact Mormon Matters host Dan Wotherspoon. He will put you in touch with them.

Email Dan at mormonmatters@gmail.com.

151–152: Short Takes—Adventures in Spirit

Dan Wotherspoon — Fri, 08 Feb 2013 01:55:20 +0000

We are experimenting with a different type of show this time. Instead of diving into a single huge topic, this show features short takes: thoughts, stories, and combination of ideas that have been important to each participant, that have stuck with them, that have caused them to feel more oriented in the cosmos. As it turned out in this first episode of this sort, we, not with any real planning for it to go this way, asked four folks to be on who, it turns out, truly are what one might call “spiritual adventurers.” Each has explored religion and the spiritual life through world travel, exposure to far-ranging ideas beyond typical LDS borders, and deep immersion in thought systems or ritual practices. Given this, it’s no surprise that the ideas that were shared ended up connecting in many ways, with each panelist sharing about experiences that have led them to leave the safety of surety for the risk and richness of Spirit.

This two-part episode features Phyllis Barber, Bill Hansen, Dallas Robbins, Chelsea Shields-Strayer, and Mormon Matters host Dan Wotherspoon.

Please listen and then share your thoughts below. Share about the format, too. Would you like us to produce more shows like this from time to time? Would you like to participate in an episode like this (and, if so, please write host Dan Wotherspoon privately at mormonmatters@gmail.com)?

149–150: Near-Death Experiences

Dan Wotherspoon — Wed, 30 Jan 2013 01:03:20 +0000

Near-Death Experiences (NDEs) fascinate. Most share similar features that suggest the existence of a spirit or consciousness separate from the body that can continue to exist after the body and brain have ceased functioning in ways generally thought to be necessary for “life.” Those who have experienced a NDE also often undergo changes in worldview and personality traits, including a greater sense of compassion, less desire to judge others harshly, a sense of one’s own importance (even divinity), and peace amid life’s chaos that stems from a feeling that no matter what, everything has purpose and all will work out in the end. Some even claim that afterward they are more intuitive and/or have a different energy about them that affects electronic devices, etc. Others claim and exhibit a lack of interest in the mundane world anymore, with many of them failing to ever successfully re-integrate into the purely mortal realm—as it seems to be far less “real” as the other, a mere shadow of true Reality.

But are NDEs truly a glimpse at an afterlife, a real hint about the nature of spirit, human personality, structures of the universe, the existence of God or Divine purpose? Can purely physiological explanations account for the different types of experiences that people report following an NDE? What might NDEs suggest about the role and status of “religion versus deeper “spiritual” modes of experiencing?

In this two-part episode, panelists Jeff Olsen, a person who has had a profound Near-Death Experience, Tom Haws, a long-time student of NDEs, and Lisa Hansen, a psychologist with a strong interest in the subject, join Mormon Matters host Dan Wotherspoon in an exploration of all of these and many more aspects of or questions raised by Near-Death Experiences and studies of this phenomenon. As they are all also Latter-day Saints, at various points in the discussion the panel notes connections and discusses aspects of Mormonism (and religion in general) that line up with or are challenged by NDEs.

We welcome you to listen and then share your experiences or engage the panel and each other in the comments section below!

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Links:

International Association For Near-Death Studies (IANDS) website.

Tom Haws’ blogpost about NDEs. His blog also contains other posts and links related to NDEs.

Jeff Olsen’s book, I Knew Their Hearts: The Amazing True Story of a Journey Beyond the Veil to Learn the Silent Language of the Heart, is available through many outlets and formats, including Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Deseret Book, Kindle, and Nook.

147–148: LDS and Pacific Islander Layers of the Manti Te’o Saga

Dan Wotherspoon — Thu, 24 Jan 2013 06:26:30 +0000

Very little coverage of the story of the cruel hoax perpetrated on Notre Dame football player Manti Te’o has focused on aspects of the Mormon and Pacific Islander cultures that helped shape him and how these might help illuminate and give context to what seems so baffling to so many: how Te’o could be as trusting and naïve as he would have to be to be so victimized, as well as why he might be extra hesitant to share the story earlier than he did. In this podcast, panelists Anapesi Ka’ili, Jennifer Finlayson-Fife, and Stephen Carter, along with Mormon Matters host Dan Wotherspoon look at the Te’o saga with eyes trained on the places and cultures in which he was raised and how they likely helped create a perfect storm for him to be so extraordinarily trusting and captivated by the qualities embodied by the woman he fell so deeply for without ever having met her in person. Both Mormonism and Pacific Islander identities (especially in combination with each other and also their mix in the specific town in Hawaii in which Te’o was raised) help us better understand this story, but in return the story provides a fruitful jumping off point for examination of things Mormon and Islander, such as many largely un-examined LDS (and wider religious) sensibilities and narratives, the prevalence of affinity fraud in Mormon and other close-knit religious groups, and pressures to present oneself to others in ways that fit inspirational molds but which are not fully authentic.

This discussion is rich at many levels. We look forward to your listening and then joining in the conversation below!

146: Relationships First: Mormon Parents Face Their Child’s Faith Transition

Dan Wotherspoon — Tue, 22 Jan 2013 05:47:13 +0000

In this important episode that affirms love and clear vision, three LDS parents—Jeralee, Jim, and Teri—share their experiences in meeting the challenging situation of an adult child’s faith transition that leaves uncertain whether or not their future will include Mormonism in a significant way. In addition to sharing the outlines of their conversations and experiences with their children (in these cases, three grown sons), they discuss ideas and shifts of perspective that have helped them find peace about what is happening.

Note: This episode uses the real names of both parents and children, but it foregoes last names in order to add a layer of protection from web searches. However, all the parents have permission from their children to discuss their stories, and each also welcomes anyone reaching out to engage them privately. If you’d like to get in touch with any of the participants, please contact Mormon Matters host Dan Wotherspoon at mormonmatters@gmail.com. He will put you in touch with them.

144–145: The Kingdom of God is Within You—Believing It, Trusting It, Accessing It

Dan Wotherspoon — Mon, 17 Dec 2012 06:30:22 +0000

As we mature spiritually and are ready for deeper and more expansive experience, so much that religion focuses on—propositional statements of belief and messaging that leads us to believe “If we do this practice or that amount of good, we will be ‘saved’”—can begin to hinder our connection. Using the phrase attributed to Jesus that “the kingdom of God is within [us]” (Luke 17:21) as an entry point into a discussion of deeper forms of spirituality taught in and urged by the scriptures, as well as the inner call of our own spirits, this two-part episode focuses on the vitality of direct experience with the Spirit—our true, divine selves in the presence of God. What ideas and mis-identifications keep us from these experiences? What are the effects that follow in our lives from having them? How do we put ourselves in a position (techniques and attitudes) to have them?

If you’re feeling “stuck” or unsatisfied, that something in your spiritual life is “missing,” please join Mormon Matters host Dan Wotherspoon and panelists Phil McLemore and Nathan Kline on an exploration of ideas about our natures and the spiritual heart of religion and the kinds of practices that nudge us toward something more fulfilling, concepts and disciplines that help move us from an identification with and desire to perfect the “natural man” to a realization of our true spiritual essence, from a life dominated by fear and a craving to be “in control” to one of centered in love and leading to a desire for oneness.

Part 1 focuses on theory; Part 2 on practice (especially “centering prayer” and meditative disciplines).

Please listen and give us your thoughts below!

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WITHIN
By Carol Lynn Pearson

I read a map once
Saying the kingdom of God
Was within me.
But I never trusted
Such unlikely ground.

I went out.
I scoured schools
And libraries
And chapels and temples
And other people’s eyes
And the skies and the rocks.
And I found treasures
From the kingdom’s treasury
But not the kingdom.

Finally I came in quiet
For a rest
And turned on the light.

And there
Just like a surprise party
Was all the smiling royalty–
King, Queen, court.

People have been
Locked up for less, I know.
But I tell you
Something marvelous
Is bordered by this skin:

I am a castle
And the kingdom of God
Is within.

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Links:

On Centering Prayer

Bourgeault, Cynthia. Centering Prayer and Inner Awakening. Plymouth, UK.: Cowley, 2004. (Amazon link)

Study Guide for Centering Prayer and Inner Awakening (free download)

Keating, Thomas. Intimacy with God: An Introduction to Centering Prayer. New York: Crossroad, 1994 (2009). (Amazon link)

Keating, Thomas. Open Mind Open Heart: The Contemplative Dimension of the Gospel. New York: Continuum, 1986 (2011). (Amazon link)

Willard, Dallas. The Spirit of the Disciplines: Understanding How God Changes Lives. New York: HarperOne, 1990. (Amazon link)

Phil McLemore articles and interview

“Hindering the Saints: Taking Away the Key of Knowledge,” Sunstone, September 2012. (Link to purchase magazine issue)

“The Yoga of Christ,” Sunstone, June 2007. (Free download)

“Mormon Mantras: A Journey of Spiritual Transformation,” Sunstone, April 2006. (Free download)

A Mormon’s Spiritual Transformation through Meditation and the Hindu Yogic Tradition, Mormon Stories Podcast, Episodes 246-249, March 2011, interview with Phil McLemore conducted by Andrew Ainsworth (Free download)

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142–143: Process Theology and Mormonism

Dan Wotherspoon — Tue, 11 Dec 2012 05:09:48 +0000

The term “process theology” refers to a system of thought that emerged in the early twentieth century and is based primarily upon the reflections of Alfred North Whitehead and Charles Hartshorne. Both its name and its scope, however, engage questions that date to the beginning of formal philosophical thought about the nature of reality and whether it is best thought of in terms of “Being” or “Becoming,” as primarily static and unchanging or dynamic and constantly in process. As a theological system, process thought is characterized for its strong divergence from many elements of classical theism, rejecting such ideas of perfection necessarily needing to involve eternal unchangingness, or a God who created ex nihilo and to whom all the “omnis” would apply (omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, omnibenevolent). In these and other sensibilities, process theology has long been recognized as having many similarities to Mormon views of God and the nature of reality, leading to a fair amount of philosophical exploration about touchstones and divergences between the two.

In this two-part episode, Mormon Matters host Dan Wotherspoon and philosophers James McLachlan and David Grandy discuss process theology and LDS connections and differences, focusing mostly, however, on ways that engaging process thought has pushed each of them into new views of or deeper dives into Mormonism and its intuitions and sensibilities about God, humans, and the natural world. The discussion includes some “teaching” of process theology and its metaphysics (and panelists give plenty of alerts when they are about to go nerdy or get all jargony), but for the most part it stays rooted in broad territory, connecting with the history of thought, problems with classical science and philosophy and mechanistic views of matter, and exploring the kind of openings into which process and LDS thought both wade. In short, although some of the material discussed is technical, we have made a real effort to stay connected with ideas that play out in all human lives, making this, we hope, still very accessible and interesting to all listeners even if they have no training in philosophy or theology.

Please ask questions or make comments below! We look forward to engaging you!

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LINKS:

On Mormonism and Process Thought parallels:

Garland E. Tickmeyer, “Joseph Smith and Process Theology,” Dialogue, Autumn 1984

Floyd M. Ross, “Process Philosophy and Mormon Thought,” Sunstone, January-February 1982

Sterling M. McMurrin, Response to the Floyd M. Ross article, Sunstone, January-February 1982

Daniel W. Wotherspoon, Awakening Joseph Smith: Mormon Resources for a Postmodern Worldview, doctoral dissertation, Claremont Graduate School, 1996 (Chapter Two draws several parallels between process theology and Mormonism.)

Process Theology:

Bruce G. Epperly, Process Theology: A Guide for the Perplexed

John B. Cobb and David Ray Griffin, Process Theology: An Introductory Exposition

140–141: A Christmas Primer: Exploring the Nativity in Scripture, Legend, History, and Hearts (Encore Presentation)

Dan Wotherspoon — Tue, 27 Nov 2012 01:16:17 +0000

This is an encore presentation of a December 2011 podcast episode examining the Christmas story as it traditionally gets told—looking closely at what the scriptures actually say and do not say about the birth of Christ and all the pieces of this familiar story? How do the Matthew and Luke accounts differ—even irreconcilably? What motives are behind the Gospel writers’ decisions to shape the stories the way they do? What about the Jesus’s place of birth and the reason the family was in Bethlehem (if they were)? Was there a great tax and registration? What about “no room at the inn,” the manger, the star, the magi, the story of Herod killing all male infants under two years old? How did Christmas come to be held on December 25th?

In this episode, Mormon Matters host Dan Wotherspoon and panelists Kristine Haglund, Jared Anderson, and Zina Petersen explore all these questions plus lead a fascinating tour into other parts of the Christmas story. Why are only five women mentioned in the Gospels’ presentations of Jesus’s lineage—and why are the ones listed all women with “questionable” sexual pasts? What are the Twelve Days of Christmas? What is the “Immaculate Conception” and how does it affect theology about Mary and ideas about the Eucharist and other religious devotions? How has pagan history and ideas folded into the history of “Christmas” (not Jesus’s birth but the celebration of it)? The panel discusses solstices and equinoxes, meshings of calendaring systems, the link between carnivals and holy days, shepherds’ presents to the Christ child, and even a longstanding tradition of “ghost story” tie-ins with Christmas that Charles Dickens resurrected. Why was there a period of time in which Christmas was illegal? And much more!

Perhaps most important, however, is the discussion of how and why the panelists and many other Christians throughout history, knowing all that they know about what likely is and is not factual about traditional accounts, still celebrate Christmas, joyfully sing carols alongside those for whom the stories are less complicated, and experience this season as spiritually enriching.

This is an episode not to be missed! Please join in the conversation below!

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Some links of possible interest:

Sunstone magazine article by Stephen E. Thompson, “Away in a Manger,” exploring the differences between Matthew’s and Luke’s accounts, and giving a possible constructive framing of how to view these stories as still worth celebrating. (Mentioned by Dan a few times during the podcast.)

Kevin Barney blogpost at By Common Consent that outlines major considerations in the “when was Christ born?” line of inquiry. (Also mentioned by Dan during the podcast.)

139: A Beautiful Vision of Mormonism

Dan Wotherspoon — Wed, 14 Nov 2012 06:03:12 +0000

This episode was planned to be an exploration of the joys and perils of being a public face of Mormonism, especially as a woman, and in particular as women who write and speak about Mormon theology. What it ended up being is a rich, wise, affectionate, celebratory, pragmatic exploration of LDS theology, community life, and connections with ideas and people that truly are among the lovely and of good report in wider religious discourse. Using the jumping off point of Fiona and Terryl Givens’ new book, The God Who Weeps: How Mormons Make Sense of Life, Fiona Givens, Joanna Brooks, Jana Riess, and Mormon Matters host Dan Wotherspoon go deep, laugh, commiserate, but mostly celebrate the depth and richness of the Mormon vision of God, life, purposes, and possibilities.

We know you will love listening in. Tell us how much—and, okay, where we missed something—in the comments section below!

137–138: Science and Religion

Dan Wotherspoon — Mon, 05 Nov 2012 16:28:53 +0000

What is science? What is religion? What are the methods/disciplines and underlying assumptions that animate each? What does each investigate? What practices and institutions does each have in place that lead to self-correction and ensuring that they truly are working for truer, deeper understandings of the universe? Should science and religion remain separate from each other? How much can each say fruitfully about the other’s “realm”? Can science teach us how to live more richly? Can religion be trusted as a guide in any way to how the universe “works”?

In this episode, Mormon Matters host Dan Wotherspoon is joined by Matthew Nokleby and Steven Peck for a head-on dive into these questions and more. Eventually each shares why he orients toward science and religion the way he does—Matt as an atheist who honors spiritual life while rejecting religion’s explicit claims, Steve and Dan as remaining more engaged with religion along with their celebrations of all that science has to offer? The also briefly discuss the theology and rhetoric of Mormonism toward the value of science.

Please listen and join in the conversation in the comments section below!

135–136: Racism and the Book of Mormon

Dan Wotherspoon — Mon, 29 Oct 2012 05:15:59 +0000

This episode examines the status of the claim that the Book of Mormon teaches that dark skin is a curse from God, that because of their wickedness God cursed a group of people and actually brought about a miraculous change in their skin color so as to make them seem “loathsome” and not enticing to a more righteous group with whom they were in conflict. This claim relies upon a literal reading of various passages in the Book of Mormon that seem to draw this conclusion, as well as an extremely strong view about prophetic and scriptural inerrancy.

But is this the best way to read the text, and the only real plausible conclusion to draw concerning God’s use of skin color as a marker of either displeasure or favor? Brian Dalton, the creator and star of the videocast series Mr. Deity, thinks so, and it has led him recently to create a new episode of one of his side projects, The Way of the Mister, that he titled “Mormonism is Racism.” In that episode, Dalton spells out the ways in which he believes Latter-day Saints are forced to hold to such contemptible racist beliefs because they can neither jettison the Book of Mormon nor the idea in it about skin color being connected to righteousness. Through this episode and the logic he employs in it—that this conclusion about God and skin color is “so essential to the Book of Mormon story that to get rid of it would be to undermine the entire Book of Mormon and thus the entire Mormon faith,” that Joseph Smith suggested the Book of Mormon could only be read literally, that because of the LDS teaching that its leaders speak directly with and for God, “you’re either all in you’re all out”—Dalton urges people everywhere to confront this vile message by exposing its centrality in Mormonism. He claims that because it’s a religious belief, “Mormons have gotten a pass,” but he is adamant this kind of religious cover for blatant racism should not be allowed to stand any longer. “Mormons have to be held accountable—even those running for high public office.”

In this two-part Mormon Matters episode, Brian Dalton joins Charley Harrell and host Dan Wotherspoon in a lively discussion of the Way of the Mister episode and its claims, whether there are fair readings of the Book of Mormon passages and sensibilities in question that might complicate the straight lines that Dalton draws about the message or its centrality to (or consistency within) the Book of Mormon’s story, as well as quite a bit about the value or harm that religion as a whole adds to this world. Parts of the discussion get a bit feisty, yet even amid some chaos (you’ll discover some “on-air” producing going on in efforts to re-orient and make new plans when the discussion takes unexpected turns) it presents important and clear contrasts in worldviews, especially related to definitions of God, scripture, what “revelation” or something being “inspired” might mean, the promise of science and if secularism is leading to a better world and more fulfilled lives than religion does (or can), and much more.

Part Two presents a continued conversation between Harrell and Wotherspoon that presents looks at two perspectives that the conversation with Dalton left nearly untouched: (1) alternate possible readings of the Book of Mormon if it were to be examined it on its own terms, and from the perspective that it is a thousand-year abridged history of actual, ancient people and what this might yield in terms of a different framing about racism present in the passages in dispute, and also what the implications would be for Mormons today in terms of their being forced by logic to believe in the skin color claim; and (2) how these passages and their centrality to the Mormon faith might look from a perspective that admits nineteenth-century origins for the Book of Mormon, either as the sole creation of Joseph Smith’s imagination or through some kind of “revelation” that involves both divine and human influence on the text that resulted. And, if any of this is admitted, how might this new perspective on prophetic production affect statements such as Smith’s declaration that the Book of Mormon was translated by “the gift and power of God,” and that it is “the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book”?

Both parts are longer than what we typically aim for at Mormon Matters, but we think you will enjoy these discussions and find them to represent well important currents for how to best frame religion in general, and Mormonism and its holy scriptures and sensibilities about prophets and revelation, in particular. We hope you will listen carefully and then contribute to a lively discussion in the comments section below.

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Links to media and articles mentioned in podcast or relevant to the topic:

“Mormonism is Racism,” Way of the Mister videocast, 10 October 2012

Mormon Stories Interview with Brian Dalton, 20 October 2010

Mormon Stories Interview with Charley Harrell, 25 January 2012

Mormon Matters episode, “How Can We Truly Confront Racism within Mormon Thought and Culture?” 9 March 2012

Utah Lighthouse Ministry list: Racial Statements in LDS Scripture

Matthew Roper, “Nephi’s Neighbors: Book of Mormon Peoples and Pre-Columbian Populations,” FARMS Review 15, no. 2 (2003)

Blake T. Ostler, “DNA Strands in the Book of Mormon,” Sunstone, May 2005

Blake T. Ostler, “The Book of Mormon As a Modern Expansion of an Ancient Source,” Dialogue 20, no. 1 (Spring 1987)

Scott C. Dunn, “Spirit Writing: Another Look at the Book of Mormon,” Sunstone, June 1985

C. Jess Groesbeck, “The Book of Mormon as a Symbolic History: A New Perspective on Its Place in History and Religion,” Sunstone, March 2004

“White and Delightsome: Racism in the Book of Mormon” by Michael Barker (post at Rational Faiths blog)

133–134: LDS Spiritual Supplementing

Dan Wotherspoon — Mon, 22 Oct 2012 04:34:14 +0000

Studies are showing a huge increase in the number of people who claim hybrid spiritual identities, in which their religious lives include a combination of practices and emphases from different traditions. Mormons are no exception, with many, and for many reasons, supplementing their LDS lived religion with meditation, energy work, channeling, nature spirituality, participation in Freemasonry, and with many more things.

In this two-part episode, we discuss with Doe Daughtrey her research into LDS women who, to use a term coined by Janet Bennion, “double dip”—that is, they draw on resources in both Mormonism and another tradition in their quest for spiritual fulfillment. We also hear from two Mormons—Patrick McCleary and Katie Langston—who are very active and happy as Latter-day Saints but who practice Freemasonry and mindfulness mediation, respectively. What led them and the LDS women Daughtrey studied to attempt these ideological and ritual syntheses? How does some of Mormonism’s rhetoric collude in their choice to explore additional paths? What resources within Mormonism do they draw on for strength and affirmation as they choose to add other things to their LDS practices? How do they talk about their practices and spirituality with family, friends, and ward members? What types of reactions do they receive?

We are excited to have you listen into this wonderful conversation and then ask questions and share your own experiences and reactions in the comments section below!

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Link

John W. Morehead, “Daughters of the Moon: Eclectic Mormon Women and Their Search for a Place in the Light of the Sun” (will download to your computer)

131–132: The Word of Wisdom

Dan Wotherspoon — Mon, 15 Oct 2012 20:26:29 +0000

The Word of Wisdom has been in the news again, triggered by a claim about caffeine made on a network news show, which led to an official LDS Newsroom statement clarifying the church’s position, which led to fascinating discussions and events, including hilarity at BYU over its policy of serving only de-caffeinated drinks, as well as some church members exulting that now they have an official statement that they can use to tell others to back off when they try to force their “spirit of the law” Word of Wisdom interpretations on them. What is it about the Word of Wisdom that makes it both so central to Mormons as an identity marker as well as such a divider? Is it primarily a “commandment” or the “Lord’s Law of Health”? Is it a “sin” for a Mormon to break the Word of Wisdom (requiring “forgiveness” through Christ’s suffering), or more a rejection of teachings that lead to blessings?

Clearly the Word of Wisdom is ripe for fresh discussion, which is what Mormon Matters host Dan Wotherspoon and panelists Jared Anderson, Kenton Karrasch, and Les Gripkey attempt in this two-part episode that covers (and cuts through some of the mythmaking concerning) the historical background of the revelation and how it was (and was not) practiced during the church’s first eighty-plus years, social and identity issues and inconsistencies in how it is viewed by church members (Part 1), some of the theology and doctrine surrounding Section 89, and, finally, how science and health experts evaluate today the effects of the various food and drink items mentioned in the revelation (Part 2). Among the most interesting features of the discussion is a look at the differences between how the Word of Wisdom would have been understood at the time it was given (based, for instance, upon an entirely different model in the early nineteenth century for what caused disease) versus today, and the consequences, both positive and negative, for our tendency to reflect on it through contemporary lenses. The panelists also each share parts of their own journey with and views about the Word of Wisdom.

We very much hope you will listen and then join in the discussion in the comments section below!

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Links (please recommend others):

Lester E. Bush, “The Word of Wisdom in Early Nineteenth Century Perspective,” Dialogue, Autumn 1981

Thomas G. Alexander, “The Word of Wisdom: From Principle to Requirement,” Dialogue, Autumn 1981

Leonard J. Arrington, “An Economic Interpretation of the ‘Word of Wisdom,’” BYU Studies, Winter 1959

John A. Widtsoe and Leah Widtsoe, The Word of Wisdom, A Modern Interpretation

Alan Hurst, “Of Caffeine and Covenants,” Peculiar People (blog), 19 September 2012

Heather May, “What Science Says about Mormonism’s Health Code,” Salt Lake Tribune, 1 October 2012

Les Gripkey, “Among the Mormons: My Journey as a Liahona Christian,” Sunstone, December 2007

Sister Jessica Walton letter to MTC president (urging, in line with the Word of Wisdom, a more healthy menu at MTC), February 2012 (used with permission)

129–130: New Missionary Age

Dan Wotherspoon — Tue, 09 Oct 2012 20:31:51 +0000

The LDS Church recently announced changes in the ages that young men and women can now serve missions. Will this announcement usher in a new age in missionary work? A new age for Mormonism itself? In this Mormon Matters episode, host Dan Wotherspoon and panelists Adam Jacobsen, Hannah Wheelwright, and Maxine Hanks speculate on just that. What are the far-reaching implications for missions and mission culture, for women’s leadership both there and post mission, for LDS dating and marriages, and, most importantly, for the way women view themselves as valued for their own spiritual gifts and strength and abilities far beyond motherhood?

In Part 1, the panel focuses primarily at the nature of the announcement itself—the lack of downplaying it as a “revelation” and instead as more pragmatic and practical: leaders aren’t exactly sure how it will unfold, how they will handle the sudden influx of new missionaries (especially sisters), etc. On the other hand, in the messaging that followed the announcement, leaders did not hesitate to emphasize that this change can be read as a “hastening” of the Lord’s work, that the changes are not for the missionaries but rather the work of bringing souls to Christ itself. This first part also discusses some of the likely reasoning that led to some of the decisions made, especially an effort to prevent some of the loss of young people during that one-year (for men) and three-year (for women) gap before mission eligibility. The panel also seeks to find a middle position between skepticism that the church desires stronger indoctrination and deeper commitment to it and its goals versus the desire to offer more of its young people the wonderful “rite of passage” that missions provide, including intense opportunities to really learn to really rely on God and serve others—so often so different from any one the young person might ever encounter—and grow in spiritual strength.

In Part 2, the focus is on the what the change in women’s service age from twenty-one to nineteen might mean and bring. How will this affect how women growing up in the church will see themselves and gifts in relation to men, in terms of greater independence in spiritual matters, etc? Will this be heard as a message of (more) equal valuing and partnering in the work of growing the kingdom? What might the cumulative effect of more women serving be on more returned missionaries marrying other returned missionaries (and the ways of relating within marriages themselves), on dating practices, on the kinds of partners they seek? Will there ever be a stigma attached to sisters choosing not to serve a mission similar to what one finds for young men who don’t serve? The panelists also get a bit more speculative in trying to predict how this change in service ages (and very likely gender balance of missions) will affect greater sharing of leadership roles and duties in local wards, possibly leading to more explicit gaining of priesthood or, as panelist Maxine Hanks suggests, understanding (more fully “excavating”) the parallel paths (and even convergences) of men’s and women’s priesthood orders already embedded in LDS doctrine and practice.

Definitely a discussion worth listening to and thinking/speculating along with! We very much hope you’ll then visit back here and share your comments below.

Matters of the Heart 3: A New Story for Mormon Women

Dan Wotherspoon — Tue, 09 Oct 2012 04:59:09 +0000

A NEW STORY FOR MORMON WOMEN
By Joanna Brooks

In this episode of Matters of the Heart, Joanna Brooks reads an excerpted version of her Ask Mormon Girl blog essay about the October 2012 announcement that the LDS Church has lowered the age at which women can serve missions. As Joanna shares her joy over this announcement, it’s clear that this marks more than just a change in age limits: Mormon girls will now live in an entirely new narrative. Imagine possibilities with her!

128: The One True Church

Dan Wotherspoon — Mon, 01 Oct 2012 02:40:49 +0000

One of the most difficult things for many who have begun to think deeply about religion—their own as well as others and the relationship between them—and want to maintain a positive relationship with the idea of religion is the specter of exclusivism: claims that one’s views or one’s church is “the” Truth, or the “best,” while others are not or are lesser. Many religions make this claim either explicitly or tacitly, with Mormonism belonging to the first category, boldly declaring its special place as the possessor of priesthood keys and being the only church authorized by God to perform certain saving ordinances. One hears it quite often in LDS services and classes, and frequently in conjunction with language found in a particular scriptural passage, D&C 1:30: “And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually…”

But do LDS scriptures really support a position of exclusivity? Does this passage really refer to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as “the only true and living church” with which God is pleased and through which Deity works to save people, or does LDS scripture actually point to something much more broad?

In this episode, Mormon Matters host Dan Wotherspoon and panelists Kristine Haglund and Charles Randall Paul complicate the idea of LDS exclusivity as even being scriptural (for so much else in Mormon holy writ suggests God has a much broader project in the works than what can be accomplished through just one organization) and challenge such a straightforward reading of the “only true and living . . . well pleased” passage.

It’s an episode full of wonderful alternatives that reveal Mormon scripture to be much broader and LDS doctrines to be much more expansive and beautiful than we sometimes think they are. It’s definitely worth a close listen.After you do, please add your comments in the section below!