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	<itunes:subtitle>A weekly podcast exploring Mormon current events, pop culture, politics and spirituality</itunes:subtitle>
	<itunes:summary>A weekly podcast exploring Mormon current events, pop culture, politics and spirituality</itunes:summary>
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		<title>Another &#8220;Faith Promoting&#8221; Hoax is Circulating</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/12/01/another-faith-promoting-hoax-is-circulating/</link>
		<comments>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/12/01/another-faith-promoting-hoax-is-circulating/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Dec 2008 07:19:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Nick Literski</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Mormon]]></category>
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		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=3193</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In the last few days, a story has begun to circulate widely among many LDS members, which claims to be the testimony of an assistant matron at the Los Angeles California Temple.  Here is the story, as it has been publicized by e-mail and blogs: Date: Saturday, November 15, 2008, 6:16 PM My dear family, brothers and sisters, friends and leaders: My heart is overflowing with joy and gratitude to our Heavenly Father for His tender mercies and mighty miracles in our behalf. I just have to share this with you. As most of you know, I am a Temple ordinance worker and work the morning shift in the LA Temple every Saturday. Today, I had the priviledge oftranslating sister Martz-the new assistant Matron&#8217;s-message during our devotional. She started like this &#8220;The prophet Joseph Smith said that no unhallowed hand would be able to stop this Work from progressing. These past few weeks when mobs have combined and armies have gathered against the saints, the Lord has protected His house&#8221;. She went on to say that those, like her, who were inside the Temple when mobs were surrounding it, did not realize how scary and terrifying this looked on TV to the rest of us, because inside the House of the [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the last few days, a story has begun to circulate widely among many LDS members, which claims to be the testimony of an assistant matron at the Los Angeles California Temple.  Here is the story, as it has been publicized by e-mail and blogs:</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;"><em>Date: Saturday, November 15, 2008, 6:16 PM</em></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;"><em>My dear family, brothers and sisters, friends and leaders:<span id="more-3193"></span><br />
</em></span></span></p>
<div><em><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">My heart is overflowing with joy and gratitude to our Heavenly Father<span> </span></span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">for His tender mercies and mighty miracles in our behalf. I just have to<span> </span></span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">share this with you.</span></span></em></div>
<div><em><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">As most of you know, I am a Temple ordinance worker and work the morning<span> </span></span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">shift in the LA Temple every Saturday. Today, I had the priviledge of</span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">translating sister Martz-the new assistant Matron&#8217;s-message during our<span> </span></span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">devotional. She started like this &#8220;The prophet Joseph Smith said that no<span> </span></span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">unhallowed hand would be able to stop this Work from progressing. These<span> </span></span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">past few weeks when mobs have combined and armies have gathered against<span> </span></span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">the saints, the Lord has protected His house&#8221;. She went on to say that </span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">those, like her, who were inside the Temple when mobs were surrounding<span> </span></span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">it, did not realize how scary and terrifying this looked on TV to the<span> </span></span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">rest of us, because inside the House of the Lord all was calm and there<span> </span></span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">was peace abundant.</span></span></em></div>
<div>
<div><em><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">After Proposition 8 passed, the Temple began receiving threatening calls<span> </span></span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">and mail from those opposing it. They were warned that more than 5000<span> </span></span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">people would come to the Temple and burn it to the ground, and stop its<span> </span></span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">work.</span></span></em></div>
</div>
<div>
<div><em><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">The first Thursday when the mob came, the new LA Temple President called<span> </span></span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">the Salt Lake City Temple Offices for instructions. He was instructed to<span> </span></span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">call the local police and to insure the safety of those attending the<span> </span></span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">Temple</span></span><span> </span>by closing the gates. The assistant Matron said today, that it<span> </span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">was a tender mercy from the Lord that the mob chose that Thursday to<span> </span></span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">come since they had only one person coming to receive his own endowment<span> </span></span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">that day, which he received in time to leave before trouble started.</span></span></em></div>
</div>
<div>
<div><em><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">The LAPD and the FBI responded quickly to the Temple Presidency&#8217;s<span> </span></span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">summons and patroled the grounds and kept the mob from entering the<span> </span></span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">same. Most of them had never been there before and expressed their<span> </span></span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">surprise at how beautiful and peaceful all around was. They were invited<span> </span></span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">to come back during the Christmas season to see the lights and they<span> </span></span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">promised they would.</span></span></em></div>
</div>
<div>
<div><em><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">On Thursday, November 13th, sister Campbell, a secretary in the Temple,<span> </span></span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">was opening the mail and upon opening a large manila envelope found<span> </span></span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">inside a smaller one. When she opened this one, a white powder flew all<span> </span></span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">around her desk. She thought this could be related to the demonstrators<span> </span></span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">and feared the worst-ANTHRAX. She contacted the President, who in turn<span> </span></span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">called the Salt Lake City Temple office again for instructions.</span></span></em></div>
</div>
<div>
<div><em><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">The FBI, the LAPD, and even the SWAT teams were once again in the<span> </span></span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">grounds to investigate, and the Temple once again had to close from<span> </span></span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">around 11:30 AM to 5PM. They closed the gates and were instructed to<span> </span></span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">keep all the people there wherever they were found at the time. Those in<span> </span></span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">the parking lot had to remain in the parking lot. Those entering the<span> </span></span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">Temple</span></span><span> </span>had to remain in the first floor and those already upstairs were<span> </span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">taken to the Celestial Room.</span></span></em></div>
</div>
<div>
<div><em><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">Then, the miracles began to happen: A brother serving as a recorder that<span> </span></span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">day is a Microbiologist by profession and used to deal with hazardous<span> </span></span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">substances every day. He was the first to say the white powder in the<span> </span></span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">envelope was only talc, and put every one at ease. Then the sister<span> </span></span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">coordinator upstairs was impressed to call upstairs to the sealing area,<span> </span></span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">and said &#8220;They said we can&#8217;t go down but no one said we can&#8217;t go up, and<span> </span></span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">I have many people in the Celestial room with their ceremonial clothes<span> </span></span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">on ready to work. Could they do some sealings?&#8221; As it happened, there<span> </span></span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">were four sealers present that day and they ran four sealing sessions<span> </span></span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">non stop while the Temple was closed.</span></span></em></div>
</div>
<div>
<div><em><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">Downstairs, someone else thought to invite those in the Lobby to do some<span> </span></span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">initiatories, which they promptly did for all those hours too, brothers <span> </span></span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">and sisters alike. Among those waiting in the parking lot there was a<span> </span></span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">large group of young men and women with their leaders who had come to do<span> </span></span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">Baptisms for the dead, and who waited patiently all those hours and<span> </span></span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">decided when the Temple was reopened to go ahead and fulfill their </span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">assignment instead of driving back home.</span></span></em></div>
</div>
<div>
<div><em><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">The Temple reopened in time for the 5:30 PM session. The next day when<span> </span></span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">recording the ordinances, they discovered that they had performed 2000<span> </span></span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">sacred ordinances on Thursday, only one less than the day before when<span> </span></span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">three stakes had been visiting the Temple. Once again the assistant<span> </span></span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">matron reminded us of the words of the prophet Joseph Smith, &#8220;No<span> </span></span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">unhallowed hand can stop the Work from progressing&#8230;&#8221;.</span></span></em></div>
</div>
<div>
<div><em><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">But, this is not all, a prophecy was fulfilled also. When the new LA<span> </span></span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">Temple</span></span><span> </span>President was set apart by President Uchdorft of the First<span> </span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">Presidency, he received a blessing and these words were pronounced:  &#8220;</span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">The time has come for the LA Temple to come out of obscurity and become<span> </span></span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">an Ensign for Righteousness to the world under your Presidency.&#8221; The<span> </span></span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">pictures of the Temple have been shown on TV, newspapers and the<span> </span></span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">internet, not only in this country but worldwide. People of other faiths<span> </span></span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">have called and sent letters to the Temple thanking the Church for<span> </span></span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">defending marriage and protecting the family, and commenting how </span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">impressed they are by how beautiful and majestic the Temple looks.</span></span></em></div>
</div>
<div>
<div><em><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">One minister of an African American church, who by his own admission had<span> </span></span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">harbored ill feelings against the mormons before said &#8220;I am impressed by<span> </span></span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">your integrity and Christ like behavior, and even if I am not ready to<span> </span></span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">consider you my brothers and sisters in Christ, we can be first<span> </span></span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">cousins!&#8221;. I asked the assistant matron if I could share her comments<span> </span></span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">and she said to go ahead.</span></span></em></div>
</div>
<div>
<div><em><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">I can only add my own testimony that I know the Church of Jesus Christ<span> </span></span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">of Latter Day Saints has the power and authority of God on earth. God<span> </span></span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">Lives and Jesus, His only Begotten Son and our Savior is coming soon to<span> </span></span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">redeem His people. I am grateful to know this and I pray we stand firm,<span> </span></span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">steadfast and immobile while the prophecies of the signs before His<span> </span></span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">Coming are fulfilled. &#8220;Be not afraid, only believe&#8221; He has said, and </span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">also &#8221; What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not<span> </span></span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall<span> </span></span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or<span> </span></span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">by the voice of my servants, it is the same.&#8221; I testify that this is </span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">true and testify </span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">it in the Holy Name of Whom I strive to serve, even<span> </span></span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">Jesus Christ.<span> </span></span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">Be faithful and safe is my humble prayer.</span></span></em></div>
</div>
<div>
<div><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;"><em></em></span></span></div>
<div><em><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">Your sister in<span> </span></span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">Christ, </span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">Patricia H. Arnazzi</span></span></em></div>
<div><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">When I read this story, a few things made me suspicious&#8212;and not just from any &#8220;disbelief in miracles&#8221; standpoint.  First, since when does the <strong>Federal Bureau of Investigation</strong> respond along with local police, just to guard against a protest, when no illegal act has yet been reported?  Published photos show LAPD in riot gear, but I haven&#8217;t seen any photos of FBI agents there for the protest.  Second, given how the LDS church has responded to the protests in general, I&#8217;d truly be amazed if they didn&#8217;t publicize an actual threat of 5,000 people coming to &#8220;burn the temple to the ground.&#8221;  </span></span><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">Third, while I understand there are protocol issues involved, does a temple president really need to call Salt Lake City <strong>before</strong> contacting law enforcement about a potential anthrax delivery?</span></span></div>
<div><span style="Times New Roman;"><span style="12pt;">So, I did a little digging, and it didn&#8217;t take long.  I pulled up the Associated Press article on the Los Angeles Temple &#8220;white powder&#8221; scare, at</span></span></div>
<div><a href="http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hWQRMq91zcde41dhzAaSEx2wEHFwD94EEP9O2">http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hWQRMq91zcde41dhzAaSEx2wEHFwD94EEP9O2</a> </div>
<div>and I found this important detail:</div>
<div><em>&#8220;The temple in the Westwood area of Los Angeles <strong>was evacuated</strong> before a hazardous materials crew determined the envelope&#8217;s contents were not toxic, said <strong>FBI spokesman</strong> Jason Pack.&#8221;</em> </div>
<div>The fact that the Los Angeles Temple was <strong>evacuated</strong> before the hazmat crew did their work, demonstrates that the above &#8220;faith promoting&#8221; story isn&#8217;t just a little off on details, but <strong>fundamentally fraudulent</strong>.</div>
<div>Friends don&#8217;t let friends spread false stories to all their fellow church membes (and more), no matter how &#8220;faith promoting&#8221; they appear to be.  Even the LDS general authorities have had to intervene with similarly &#8220;faith promoting&#8221; stories, to declare that they are unequivocably false. </div>
<p> </p></div></p>
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		<slash:comments>90</slash:comments>
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		<title>Deconstructing the Book of Mormon &#8212; the four things to never do</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/10/06/deconstructing-the-book-of-mormon-the-four-things-to-never-do/</link>
		<comments>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/10/06/deconstructing-the-book-of-mormon-the-four-things-to-never-do/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Oct 2008 07:16:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Stephen Marsh</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[apologetics]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[book of mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Add new tag]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=1900</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The Book of Mormon states: 2 Nephi 27:31 For assuredly as the Lord liveth they shall see that the terrible one is brought to naught, and the scorner is consumed,and all that watch for iniquity are cut off; In context, there are four things you should never do, and this scripture is at the heart of a warning. First, never aspire to preeminence, Second, never accuse or search for iniquity in order to accuse, Third, do not contend, Fourth, never coerce by force. If it isn&#8217;t clear, the scripture refers to Satan and those who follow after him.  As another notes, both &#8220;the terrible one&#8221; and &#8220;the scorner&#8221; are epithets applied to Satan. Consider the story from Clementine Recognitions. [see more at here and here] where Peter seeks peace and his opponent, Simon Magus derides the thought, for he asserts (as the agent of the anti-Christ) that those in the right should use force.  That debate is constantly played out all over the world, all over the internet and all over the Church with people accusing, looking for flaws and mistakes and valuing contention over peace. In looking at that story and others, and in using them to seek the [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Book of Mormon states:</p>
<blockquote><p><em>2 Nephi 27:31 For assuredly as the Lord liveth they shall see that the terrible one is brought to naught, and the scorner is consumed,and all that watch for iniquity are cut off</em>;</p></blockquote>
<p>In context, there are four things you should never do, and this scripture is at the heart of a warning.<span id="more-1900"></span></p>
<ul>
<li>First, never aspire to preeminence,</li>
<li>Second, never accuse or search for iniquity in order to accuse,</li>
<li>Third, do not contend,</li>
<li>Fourth, never coerce by force.</li>
</ul>
<p>If it isn&#8217;t clear, the scripture refers to Satan and those who follow after him.   As another notes, <a href="http://frontpage2000.nmia.com/%7Enahualli/LDStopics/2Nephi/2Nephi27.htm">both &#8220;the terrible one&#8221; and &#8220;the scorner&#8221; are epithets applied to Satan.</a></p>
<p>Consider the story from Clementine Recognitions. [see more at <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clementine_literature">here</a> and <a href="http://www.compassionatespirit.com/Recognitions-and-Homilies-home.htm">here</a>] where Peter seeks peace and his opponent, Simon Magus derides the thought, for he asserts (as the agent of the anti-Christ) that those in the right should use force.  That debate is constantly played out all over the world, all over the internet and all over the Church with people accusing, looking for flaws and mistakes and valuing contention over peace.</p>
<p>In looking at that story and others, and in using them to seek the message of the Book of Mormon, the question that arises is: do we seek to force others, do we accuse others, do we scorn others?  If so, to what are our hears aspiring?  To what should we aspire instead?</p>
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		<slash:comments>8</slash:comments>
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		<title>Mormonism and the State of Nature</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/09/07/mormonism-and-the-state-of-nature/</link>
		<comments>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/09/07/mormonism-and-the-state-of-nature/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Sep 2008 20:30:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>guest</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Government]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[plan of salvation]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[politics]]></category>
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		<category><![CDATA[nature of man]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[philosophy]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=1637</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Today&#8217;s post is by Andrew C.  As a registered Democrat and a political junkie, it’s difficult for me not to notice politics at church. I’m often surprised by the positions and policies that people often take for granted, without much independent thought of their own. Of course, I find that I tend to be reflexively liberal too if discussing a topic I haven’t given much thought to. Why is that? Why do we tend to gravitate to one party, or one ideology, or the other? Most political philosophers begin their treatises exploring the state of nature – that is, the condition of mankind before the creation of the state. This natural state justifies the creation of the state – either to primarily ensure equity and fairness (see Rawls, for instance) in the liberal vision or to primarily protect property and rights from people who are by nature greedy and devious (see Nozick, for example) in the more conservative viewpoint. Mormonism is not lacking for “state of nature” theories. The Apostle Paul made mention of man’s natural carnal state, an idea well-supported by latter day scripture . However, latter day scripture also confirms that, while we are fallen beings, we are [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><span style="color: #0000ff;">Today&#8217;s post is by Andrew C.</span>  As a registered Democrat and a political junkie, it’s difficult for me not to notice politics at church. I’m often surprised by the positions and policies that people often take for granted, without much independent thought of their own.</p>
<p>Of course, I find that I tend to be reflexively liberal too if discussing a topic I haven’t given much thought to.</p>
<p>Why is that? Why do we tend to gravitate to one party, or one ideology, or the other?</p>
<p>Most political philosophers begin their treatises exploring the state of nature – that is, the condition of mankind before the creation of the state. This natural state justifies the creation of the state – either to primarily ensure equity and fairness (see <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Rawls">Rawls</a>, for instance) in the liberal vision or to primarily protect property and rights from people who are by nature greedy and devious (see <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchy,_State,_and_Utopia">Nozick</a>, for example) in the more conservative viewpoint.</p>
<p>Mormonism is not lacking for “state of nature” theories. The <a href="http://mormonmatters.org//scriptures.lds.org/en/1_cor/2/14#14”">Apostle</a> <a href="http://mormonmatters.org//scriptures.lds.org/en/rom/3/10#10”">Paul</a> made mention of man’s natural carnal state, an idea well-supported by <a href="http://mormonmatters.org//scriptures.lds.org/en/mosiah/3/19#19”">latter</a> <a href="http://mormonmatters.org//scriptures.lds.org/en/alma/42/10#10”">day</a> <a href="http://mormonmatters.org//scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/121/39#39”">scripture</a> .</p>
<p>However, latter day scripture also confirms that, while we are fallen beings, we are truly <a href="http://mormonmatters.org//scriptures.lds.org/en/ps/82/6#6”">“children of the most high”</a>, <a href="http://mormonmatters.org//scriptures.lds.org/en/moses/6/9#9”">created in the image of God</a> with the potential to <a href="http://mormonmatters.org//scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/88/107#107”">become like God</a>.</p>
<p>When you think of our natural state in a Gospel context, do you tend to think in terms that Paul would recognize, or terms that Joseph Smith emphasized? And does your fall-back idea of man’s natural state color your political view? That is, if you tend to think in Pauline terms, do you tend to agree that the state exists to primarily protect our property and persons and if you think of man in more Smithian terms, do you see the state as a means of assisting in achieving equality and potential-fulfillment?</p>
<p>(<em>N.B.</em> Students of philosophy: Please forgive my unschooled references to philosophical concepts. Feel free to clarify or add upon my interpretations in the comments.)</p>
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		<title>Excommunication: Shame or Fame?</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/07/28/excommunication-shame-or-fame/</link>
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		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jul 2008 12:00:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Spector</dc:creator>
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		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=784</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[We&#8217;ve all seen the headlines: Excommunicated: LDS Church boots creator of &#8216;Men on a Mission&#8217; calendar Local gay Mormon faces excommunication LDS author facing excommunication Note: The links are all active Where do these headlines come from? The Church or the individuals themselves? There was a time (and perhaps still is) when church discipline was a private matter, between the individual and Church Leaders. Church Discipline, for those who are unfamiliar is explained here in an article by Elder M. Russell Ballard. It is not my intention to debate Church Discipline in this post, though I suspect some comments will be directed toward that. Let&#8217;s take the case of the recent church discipline against the &#8220;Shirtless Missionary Calendar&#8221; maker, Chad Hardy. It&#8217;s not likely that the Church made this public, but Hardy himself in an effort to gain publicity and drum up more business. His sales statistics and website address feature prominently as part of the articles written about him. In other cases, the press was designed to tell the disciplined person&#8217;s &#8220;side of the story&#8221; even though the Church would not reveal its side in any case. Thus was the case of the so-called &#8220;September Six.&#8221; Maybe even in [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We&#8217;ve all seen the headlines:</p>
<ul class="unIndentedList">
<li> <a href="http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_9871783">Excommunicated: LDS Church boots creator of &#8216;Men on a Mission&#8217; calendar</a></li>
<li> <a href="http://www.washblade.com/2006/3-31/locallife/feature/mormon.cfm">Local gay Mormon faces excommunication</a></li>
<li> <a href="http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,600149153,00.html">LDS author facing excommunication</a></li>
</ul>
<p>Note: The links are all active</p>
<p>Where do these headlines come from? The Church or the individuals themselves?</p>
<p><span id="more-784"></span></p>
<p>There was a time (and perhaps still is) when church discipline was a private matter, between the individual and Church Leaders. Church Discipline, for those who are unfamiliar is explained <a href="http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&amp;locale=0&amp;sourceId=edc72150a447b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&amp;hideNav=1">here</a> in an article by Elder M. Russell Ballard. It is not my intention to debate Church Discipline in this post, though I suspect some comments will be directed toward that.</p>
<p>Let&#8217;s take the case of the recent church discipline against the &#8220;Shirtless Missionary Calendar&#8221; maker, Chad Hardy.  It&#8217;s not likely that the Church made this public, but Hardy himself in an effort to gain publicity and drum up more business. His sales statistics and website address feature prominently as part of the articles written about him.</p>
<p>In other cases, the press was designed to tell the disciplined person&#8217;s &#8220;side of the story&#8221; even though the Church would not reveal its side in any case. Thus was the case of the so-called &#8220;September Six.&#8221; Maybe even in an attempt to pressure the church not to proceed with the action.</p>
<p>I found that in some past issues of the &#8220;Improvement Era&#8221; names and reasons for church action were recorded, but certainly that has not been Church practice for many, many years. On a rare occasion, it will be announced in Church, which I only remember happening once in my 26 years in the Church. The Ward Clerk was excommunicated for a second time for adultery and the Bishop announced it to the Melchizedek Priesthood. Most of the time, only those who need to know about a particular member&#8217;s status know unless he/she reveals it.</p>
<p>What I don&#8217;t understand from the Hardy case was a statement he made in the article.</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8221;I really feel sorry for my family,&#8221; Hardy said. &#8221;They are going to be so sad. <span style="underline;"><span style="#cc99ff;"><strong>But I feel empowered and free and I feel like I no longer have to apologize for anything.&#8221;</strong></span></span></p></blockquote>
<p>Excommunication is a step whereby a member is relieved of all responsibilities of Church membership including paying tithing, wearing of the garment (if endowed) and active participation in Church meetings. But much is lost as well. For example, a priesthood holder is no longer able to exercise his Priesthood and there is the loss of the Holy Ghost as a constant companion, as if never baptized.</p>
<p>The purpose of excommunication is to assist the member in repenting of their sin and feeling the &#8220;godly sorrow&#8221; necessary.  The loss of church membership should be felt as a significant part of that sorrow associated with repentance process.  It is to help focus them and is not meant to &#8220;free&#8221; someone from the things that they &#8220;know&#8221; and have become responsible for as a member of the Church.</p>
<p>From what I gathered in the article, Chad was no longer active in the Church and may have had &#8220;other issues.&#8221;  But, in the end, I think he will be held accountable for what knowledge he did have and will not be &#8220;free&#8221; to do whatever he wants in this life. I hope he re-considers his statements and is someday welcomed back in full fellowship if he desires it.</p>
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		<title>Dealing with feelings of betrayal &#8212; when your spouse apostatizes</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/05/17/dealing-with-betrayal/</link>
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		<pubDate>Sat, 17 May 2008 22:55:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Stephen Marsh</dc:creator>
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		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=513</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I end up talking with people on this theme several times a year. There are people who feel terribly betrayed. Especially when a spouse leaves the gospel. Apostatizes. There are other situations in the same realm, that create the same emotions: a mother whose only boy has died, and who can&#8217;t have any other children, and who feels betrayed that God has left her without sons; a father whose wife has become an alcoholic and whose children are losing their way; someone whose interaction with food has gone terribly wrong and who can&#8217;t stop gaining weight; people recovering from disasters who feel that calamity should not have befallen them; a kid who wants to serve a mission but who has developing mental illness issues that medication doesn&#8217;t quite resolve; the list goes on. But some how the strain of a spouse abandoning the gospel seems to strike people just as deeply sometimes, it seems a permanent unfaithfulness and abandonment, endangering children, the love of a couple and having a core sense of failure. It is a serious form of affliction for many. Affliction, especially affliction that seems permanent or life altering, causes a number of emotions. A sense of loss, [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I end up talking with people on this theme several times a year.</p>
<p>There are people who feel terribly betrayed.  Especially when a spouse leaves the gospel.  Apostatizes.</p>
<p><span id="more-513"></span>There are other situations in the same realm, that create the same emotions:</p>
<ul>
<li>a mother whose only boy has died, and who can&#8217;t have any other children, and who feels betrayed that God has left her without sons;</li>
<li>a father whose wife has become an alcoholic and whose children are losing their way;</li>
<li>someone whose interaction with food has gone terribly wrong and who can&#8217;t stop gaining weight;</li>
<li>people recovering from disasters who feel that calamity should not have befallen them;</li>
<li>a kid who wants to serve a mission but who has developing mental illness issues that medication doesn&#8217;t quite resolve;</li>
<li>the list goes on.</li>
</ul>
<p>But some how the strain of a spouse abandoning the gospel seems to strike people just as deeply sometimes, it seems a permanent unfaithfulness and abandonment, endangering children, the love of a couple and having a core sense of failure.  It is a serious form of affliction for many.</p>
<p>Affliction, especially affliction that seems permanent or life altering, causes a number of emotions. A sense of loss, pain, hopelessness, bereavement and others. Bitterness and betrayal seem to be two of the hardest to deal with. In some situations (such as a spouse who has an attack of the &#8220;middle aged crazy&#8221; or who has been unfaithful) the emotion seems unavoidable.</p>
<p>Many people who have read my blog know that I&#8217;ve been reading 12-step literature in the hope that it would apply to grief. It does, a little, sometimes. I&#8217;ve written about that too.</p>
<p><span style="font-weight: bold;">But</span>, and this is a big but, there is one area where there is a 12-step group that has feelings of betrayal and resentment down cold. That group is <a href="http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/english.html">Al Anon</a>. Al Anon is a group for people who have an alcoholic in the family (one of the sub-groups is for kids who have to deal with an alcoholic parent). They have <a href="https://ssl.perfora.net/s105607162.oneandoneshop.com/sess/utn;jsessionid=15482f5e5001751/shopdata/index.shopscript">a lot of literature</a>. But, a constant theme, over and over again, is dealing with feelings of betrayal, resentment and the need to control someone else.</p>
<p>Yes, I&#8217;d advocate anyone with those emotions to seek counseling.  But, you can read things (e.g. <a href="http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/forum.html">here</a> on the official site, and an excellent collection of essays on-line <a href="http://alcoholism.about.com/cs/info2/a/aa981225.htm">here</a>). No matter what is causing the feelings (and alcoholics often are unfaithful, mentally ill, betrayers &#8212; that is all part of the disease), they have an excellent tool set to help you while a professional gives you additional support.</p>
<p>No question, I value <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Anatomy-Peace-Resolving-Conflict-Paperback/dp/1576755843/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&amp;s=books&amp;qid=1211064525&amp;sr=1-1">The Anatomy of Peace</a>.  But if you need more, there are books like <a href="http://www.amazon.com/One-Day-at-Time-Al-Anon/dp/0910034214/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&amp;s=books&amp;qid=1211064560&amp;sr=1-2"><span class="srTitle">One Day at a Time in Al-Anon</span></a> (available for 12 cents or so used on <a href="http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&amp;field-keywords=al+anon&amp;x=0&amp;y=0">Amazon</a> and probably in your local library) that can help with the emotional states, to give you encouragement and hope in dealing with the pain, confusion and anguish.</p>
<p>That can help you find peace.</p>
<p>Because it is peace and patience that you need.  In patience keep men their souls is a modern reading of a scripture verse that we need to remember.  Love is long suffering, patient, kind, not manipulative.  The response to the feeling of betrayal is not revenge, control, or anger.  Those do not heal or help.</p>
<p>The response is to seek the spirit of God, to embrace the power of the love of Christ and to let charity do its work, much like God does with us.</p>
<p>Which is what I&#8217;ve attempted to tell people who ask me for my advice, from what I&#8217;ve observed with those I&#8217;ve seen going through the process.</p>
<hr />Also cross posted in slightly different form <a href="http://ethesis.blogspot.com/">at my personal blog</a> &#8212; and yes, if you feel the sense of betrayal or anguish many spouses feel when their partner has abandoned the Church, this is exactly the sort of thing you can start looking at to cope.</p>
<p>My thanks to C. L. Hanson as well, for the pointer to <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.faceseast.org/index.php">Faces East</a> a forum for people in this exact situation.</p>
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		<title>Offenders for a Word, Part 2 &#8211; Do Mormons Worship Jesus?</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/05/17/offenders-for-a-word-part-2-do-mormons-worship-jesus/</link>
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		<pubDate>Sat, 17 May 2008 07:00:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Bruce Nielson</dc:creator>
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		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=473</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In my last post I wrote about how we are all forced to take a thought and translate it into words and that this is a sloppy and imperfect process. To make matters worse, the person that has to take those words and decode them back into a thought will fail to do so correctly in many cases because they&#8217;ll get stuck on the words used, either because they don&#8217;t realize words have many meanings or because they have incentive to misunderstand. In this post, I want to apply what we&#8217;ve discussed to a real life situation: Bruce R. McConkie&#8217;s talk on worshipping Jesus. Case Study 2: Do Mormons Worship Jesus? The word-offense in question comes from Bruce R. McConkie&#8217;s now famous (infamous?) talk entitled &#8220;Our Relationship with the Lord&#8221; where McConkie states that Mormons do not worship Jesus. Anti-Mormons, with eyes full of glee, shout &#8220;Ha! Mormons don&#8217;t worship Jesus! We do!&#8221; Disaffected Mormons say &#8220;McConkie says Mormons don&#8217;t worship Jesus, but Hinckley changed that doctrine and now Mormons do worship Jesus! (See! That&#8217;s proof the Church isn&#8217;t Divine!)&#8221; And even believing Mormons might ask &#8220;So which is it? Do we or don&#8217;t we worship Jesus?&#8221; But all such questions, [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2008/05/10/offenders-for-a-word-part-1-is-jesus-god/">In my last post</a> I wrote about how we are all forced to take a thought and translate it into words and that this is a sloppy and imperfect process. To make matters worse, the person that has to take those words and decode them back into a thought will fail to do so correctly in many cases because they&#8217;ll get stuck on the words used, either because they don&#8217;t realize words have many meanings or because they have incentive to misunderstand.</p>
<p>In this post, I want to apply what we&#8217;ve discussed to a real life situation: Bruce R. McConkie&#8217;s talk on worshipping Jesus.</p>
<p><strong>Case Study 2: Do Mormons Worship Jesus?</strong></p>
<p>The word-offense in question comes from Bruce R. McConkie&#8217;s now famous (infamous?) talk entitled &#8220;<a href="http://speeches.byu.edu/reader/reader.php?id=6843">Our Relationship with the Lord</a>&#8221; where McConkie states that Mormons do not worship Jesus. <span id="more-473"></span></p>
<p>Anti-Mormons, with eyes full of glee, shout &#8220;Ha! Mormons don&#8217;t worship Jesus! We do!&#8221;</p>
<p>Disaffected Mormons say &#8220;McConkie says Mormons don&#8217;t worship Jesus, but Hinckley changed that doctrine and now Mormons do worship Jesus! (See! That&#8217;s proof the Church isn&#8217;t Divine!)&#8221;</p>
<p>And even believing Mormons might ask &#8220;So which is it? Do we or don&#8217;t we worship Jesus?&#8221;</p>
<p>But all such questions, by their very nature, are really just word-offense. None of the above questions attempt to capture the real nuance taught by Elder McConkie on the subject.</p>
<p>The question that a person sincere about understanding McConkie (and perhaps by extention, sincere about understanding the LDS Church) would ask is &#8220;In what sense does McConkie believe Mormons worship Jesus? In what sense do they not worship Jesus?&#8221;</p>
<p>Now through word-offense, it might be easier and more fun to attack McConkie and simplify his full nuanced beliefs into something he never taught, but let&#8217;s keep in mind that, thanks to the Bible, this can be done to any Old Testament-believing religion:</p>
<p><a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_chr/29/20#20">1 Chr 29:20</a> states: &#8220;And David said to all the congregation, Now bless the Lord your God. And all the congregation blessed the Lord God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, <em>and <span style="text-decoration: underline;">worshipped</span> the Lord, and the king.</em>&#8221;</p>
<p>Through word-offense, I can now make the claim that all Bible-believing Christians and all Jews believe that King David was a god and that he is to be worshipped. And thanks to the single use of the word &#8220;worship&#8221; for both King David and God, I can wreak some real havoc against any counter arguments about how they are worshiped in different senses of the word. [1]</p>
<p>This issue of word-offense on the word &#8220;worship&#8221; is not just a Mormon issue.</p>
<p>With this in mind, let&#8217;s make a sincere attempt to understand McConkie&#8217;s full nuanced teachings about worshipping Jesus so that we can understand what he really meant.</p>
<p><strong>Understanding the Purpose and Context of McConkie&#8217;s Talk</strong></p>
<p>Bear in mind Joseph Smith&#8217;s teachings that we need to try to understand the context of a scriptural (or in this case Apostolic) statement to really understand it: &#8220;I have a key by which I understand the scriptures. <span style="text-decoration: underline;">I enquire [sic], what was the question which drew out the answer</span>&#8230;&#8221; (<em>Teaching of the Prophet Joseph Smith</em>, p. 276 &#8211; 277)</p>
<p>McConkie tells us himself that he was concerned that members of the Church might be starting to pray unto Jesus directly to gain an inappropriately intimate relationship with the 2nd member of the Godhead that down plays or excludes other members:</p>
<blockquote><p>Now, it is no secret that many false and vain and foolish things are being taught in the sectarian world and even among us about our need to gain a special relationship with the Lord Jesus.</p></blockquote>
<blockquote><p>He [the Father] is the one to whom we have direct access by prayer, and if there were some need&#8211;which there is not!&#8211;to single out one member of the Godhead for a special relationship, the Father, not the Son, would be the one to choose.</p></blockquote>
<blockquote><p>There are yet others who have an excessive zeal which causes them to go beyond the mark. Their desire for excellence is inordinate. In an effort to be truer than true they devote themselves to gaining a special, personal relationship with Christ that is both improper and perilous.</p></blockquote>
<blockquote><p>Another peril is that those so involved often begin to pray directly to Christ because of some special friendship they feel has been developed.</p></blockquote>
<blockquote><p>It is a fine and sacred line, but clearly there is a difference between a personal and intimate relationship with the Lord, which is improper, and one of worshipful adoration, which yet maintains the required reserve between us and him who has bought us with his blood.</p></blockquote>
<p><strong>McConkie Used the Word &#8220;Worship&#8221; in Multiple Senses</strong></p>
<p>McConkie did not intend for us to understand that Mormons do not worship Jesus in any sense of the word. Again, he tells us this plainly:</p>
<blockquote><p>I know perfectly well what the scriptures say about worshipping Christ and Jehovah, but they are speaking in an entirely different sense&#8230;</p></blockquote>
<blockquote><p>In the full, final, and ultimate sense of the word the divine decree is: ‘Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, with all thy might, mind, and strength; and in the name of Jesus Christ thou shalt serve him. [D&amp;C 59:5]&#8216;</p></blockquote>
<p><strong>In What Sense Does McConkie Say it Is Appropriate to Worship Jesus?</strong></p>
<p>In this very talk alone, I was able to make the following list of McConkie&#8217;s ideas of appropriate attitudes towards Jesus that would, in many people&#8217;s minds, constitute worship:</p>
<ol>
<li>Awe</li>
<li>Reverence</li>
<li>Gratitude</li>
<li>Love</li>
<li>Service</li>
<li>Fellowship</li>
<li>Revealer and manifester of God the Father</li>
<li>The way to the Father</li>
<li>Praise his holy name</li>
<li>Ascribe unto Him honor, power, glory, might, and dominion</li>
<li>Treat Him as Lord, God, and King</li>
<li>Worshipful adoration</li>
</ol>
<p>McConkie adds:</p>
<blockquote><p>We do not have a fraction of the power we need to properly praise his holy name and ascribe unto him the honor and power and might and glory and dominion that is his. He is our Lord, our God, and our King.</p></blockquote>
<p><strong>In What Sense Does McConkie Say It is Not Appropriate to Worship Jesus? </strong></p>
<p>As quoted previously, the only example he specifically gives of inappropriately worshiping Jesus is praying directly to Jesus or forming a special or more &#8220;intimate&#8221; relationship with Jesus to the exclusion of or down playing the other members of the Godhead. To McConkie, this distinction is the difference between a lesser form or &#8220;worship&#8221; and &#8220;worship&#8221; in the &#8220;true and saving sense.&#8221; (&#8220;Worship in the true and <em>saving sense</em> is reserved for God the first, the Creator,&#8221; says McConkie.)</p>
<p>It would certainly seem that the LDS Church does indeed believe in addressing all prayers to the Father alone, though in the name of the Son.</p>
<p><strong>Worshipping Jesus as Part of the Godhead: Deconstructing McConkie&#8217;s Doctrine of Deity</strong></p>
<p>Now this might seem to be the end of our inquiry here: McConkie says that we both do and don&#8217;t worship Jesus. We do in that we have certain feelings towards Him appropriate to Diety alone. We don&#8217;t in that we don&#8217;t directly address Him in prayer because that is reserved only for the Father. I think it would be significant if we could at least get this much out of McConkie&#8217;s talk and end our word-offense over it.</p>
<p>But as it turns out, there is more to the story, as McConkie himself tells us.</p>
<p>You see, McConkie, ever on the attack against his (in my opinion incorrect) understanding of &#8220;sectarian Trinitarianism&#8221; [2] <a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2008/04/06/mormons-as-trinitarians/">was himself somewhat of a &#8220;Social Trinitarian.&#8221;</a> For example, McConkie says:</p>
<blockquote><p>Thus there are, in the Eternal Godhead, three persons&#8211;God the first, the Creator; God the second, the Redeemer; and God the third, the Testator. <em>These three are one &#8212; <span style="text-decoration: underline;">one God if you will </span>&#8211; in purposes, in powers, and in perfections</em>.</p></blockquote>
<p>McConkie, as with all Social Trinitarians, does not seem to make a complete separation of the Godhead/Trinity. In my opinion, this proper understanding of McConkie&#8217;s own theology of God is necessary to understand McConkie fully.</p>
<p>To McConkie, while we are to address prayers only to the Father &#8211; this is McConkie&#8217;s key point &#8211; such worship is actually towards all members of the Godhead, in a sense, because they are all one.</p>
<p>Look one more time at this quote&#8230; and read it very carefully&#8230; it will pop out at you now:</p>
<blockquote><p>He [the Father] is the one to whom we have direct access by prayer, and <span style="text-decoration: underline;">if there were some need &#8212; <strong>which there is not! </strong>&#8211; to single out one member of the Godhead</span> for a special relationship, the Father, not the Son, would be the one to choose.</p></blockquote>
<p>McConkie later adds:</p>
<blockquote><p>First, be it remembered that most scriptures that speak of God or of the Lord <span style="text-decoration: underline;">do not even bother to distinguish the Father from the Son, simply because it doesn&#8217;t make any difference which God is involved. They are one.</span> The words or deeds of either of them would be the words and deeds of the other in the same circumstance.</p></blockquote>
<p><strong>McConkie&#8217;s Full Teaching: We Do Worship Jesus When We Worship the Father Because They Are One</strong></p>
<p>I do feel McConkie was not entirely clear on this last point within this particular talk. But if you will allow me to take McConkie&#8217;s teachings as a whole rather than forcing one talk to represent the man, consider the following McConkie quotes:</p>
<blockquote><p>The Father and the Son are the objects of all true worship. [Note the use of a single word here for both members of the Godhead]&#8230; <span style="text-decoration: underline;">No one can worship the Father without also worshiping the Son</span>. &#8230; It is proper to worship the Father, in the name of the Son, and also to worship the Son. ‘Believe in Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise be cast out.&#8217; (2 Ne 25:16, 29) (<em>Mormon Doctrine</em>, p. 848-849)</p></blockquote>
<blockquote><p>Though each God in the Godhead is a personage, separate and distinct from each of the others, yet they are ‘one God&#8217;&#8221; (<em>Mormon Doctrine</em>, p. 319)</p></blockquote>
<blockquote><p>There are three Gods &#8211; the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost &#8211; who, though separate in personality, are united as one in purpose, in plan, and in all the attributes of perfection. Thus anything, in these fields, which is revealed with reference to any of them is equally true of each of the others; <span style="text-decoration: underline;">and hence no attempt need be made in these fields to distinguish between them</span>.</p></blockquote>
<p>This understanding of McConkie&#8217;s beliefs helps us understand why McConkie believed in one very notable exception to praying to Jesus. He taught it was entirely appropriate if Jesus was bodily present. In his commentary of John 16:24 he said,</p>
<blockquote><p>Perhaps as long as Jesus was personally with them [the disciples] many of their petitions were addressed directly to him rather than to the Father. Such was the course followed by the Nephites when the resurrected and glorified Lord ministered among them. They prayed directly to him and not to the Father.</p></blockquote>
<p>He then quoted 3 Ne 19:17-18, 22: &#8220;&#8230;they pray unto me [Jesus]; and they pray unto me because I am with them&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p><strong>A Summary of McConkie&#8217;s Teachings About Worshiping Jesus</strong></p>
<p>So what can we say for certain about McConkie&#8217;s teachings about worshiping Jesus?</p>
<ol>
<li>McConkie taught that in one sense of the word &#8220;worship&#8221; we do not worship Jesus. This sense is specifically stated to be either a prayer addressed to Jesus when He isn&#8217;t bodily present or forming a special relationship with Jesus to the exclusion of the Father or the Godhead as a whole.</li>
<li>McConkie taught that in another sense we do worship Jesus. He gave many examples of different sense in which we do worship Jesus.</li>
<li>McConkie taught that we are to address all prayers to the Father in the name of the Son.</li>
<li>McConkie taught that we can and do worship Jesus, albeit indirectly, when we worship the Father.</li>
<li>McConkie taught that it was appropriate to pray to Jesus in one circumstance, when He&#8217;s physically present.</li>
</ol>
<p>Based on my reading and understanding of every General Authority before and after McConkie, it seems to me that McConkie was really attempting to express exactly what the LDS Church has always taught and still teaches today about worship of Jesus. So I believe McConkie does in fact represent LDS beliefs on this subject even if we wish he had worded it differently.</p>
<p><strong>Comparison to Other Christian Religions</strong></p>
<p>What I find interesting is that the above teachings about worshiping Jesus seem quite similar to the teachings of many &#8220;orthodox Christian&#8221; religions on this very subject. [3]</p>
<p>I do not see this as a coincidence. I&#8217;ve learned to not overlook the ability of other religions to find truth from the Bible. On this very subject, it&#8217;s hard to miss -</p>
<ul>
<li>Jesus only taught people to pray to the Father, not to Him. For example: &#8220;Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsover ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.&#8221; (John 16:23. See also Matt 26:39, John 15:16, and many others).</li>
<li>The Bible forces people to accept that there is more than one definition of the word &#8220;worship.&#8221; 1 Chr 29:20 is the best example of this, but there are others. [1]</li>
</ul>
<p>Many non-Mormon Christians solely and exclusively address their prayers to the Father because of Jesus&#8217; teachings on this subject. I am unaware of any non-Mormon Christian denomination that, at least officially, advocates having a special relationship with Jesus to the exclusion of or de-emphasizing the Father. [3]</p>
<p>The one area that we might have some disagreement between McConkie&#8217;s teachings and other Christian religions (and possibly even Mormonism) is in having an &#8220;intimate&#8221; relationship with Jesus. But here we again bump into word-offense. What does the word &#8220;intimate&#8221; really mean as McConkie uses it? As McConkie uses the term contextually, do other Christian religions really believe in having, as it were, an inappropriate relationship that doesn&#8217;t &#8220;maintain the required reserve between us&#8221; and God? [4]</p>
<p><strong>Notes:</strong></p>
<p>[1] Margaret Baker, an unfortunate favorite of Mormon apologists, actually does try to make the argument, based on this verse alone, that Jews believed King David was a god in the same way other polytheistic religions believed their king was a god. But at least Margaret Baker was tolerant enough to not claim that all modern Christians are really secretly polytheists because their scriptures teach king David is God. That would be word-offense.</p>
<p>[2] McConkie bore a misunderstanding the traditional view of the Trinity, as do many Mormons, as well as many non-Mormon Christians: &#8220;They say he is one-god-in-three, and three-gods-in-one who neither hears, nor sees, nor speaks.&#8221; He thought the Trinity was Modalism.</p>
<p>[3] Okay, I admit there are exceptions. On my mission there was a lady that would start out her prayers &#8220;O Holy Spirit of Jesus.&#8221; When asked why she did she&#8217;d say &#8220;well they are all the same person!&#8221; In other words she had misunderstood the Trinity doctrine to be Modalism. My real point here is that amongst non-Modalist Christians, which technically speaking is all of them if they understood their doctrines, there are few if any Christians that believe in worshiping Jesus in some special sense as McConkie is fighting against. (In my next article I&#8217;ll address how this means McConkie was himself taking word-offense against other Christians.)</p>
<p>[4] Remember, these are the very same Christians that feel our doctrine of deification is blasphemous because there needs to be a strong separation between creator and created. From their point of view it is we Mormons that believe in having an &#8220;intimate&#8221; relationship with Jesus and the Father that is inappropriate and without the required reserve appropriate for worshipful adoration.</p>
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		<title>An Hour of Peace and Rest</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/05/14/an-hour-of-peace-and-rest/</link>
		<comments>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/05/14/an-hour-of-peace-and-rest/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 May 2008 21:32:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Lisa Ray Turner</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[church]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Culture]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[sacrament meeting]]></category>
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		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=504</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I usually enjoy going to church. I look forward to it, despite talks that are occasionally less-than-dazzling, overly-perfumed women in the pew in front of me, and the family in the third row that refuses to take their baby out, even when she screams during the sacrament. There’s one pet peeve, though, that irritates me every week. Drives me crazy. Every week without fail. The noise level in the chapel before the meeting starts. Sometimes I feel more like I’m at a football game than at church. This is a uniquely Mormon issue, from what I’ve seen. I have sung in lots of other churches, been a choir director for another congregation for several years, and attended meetings at many churches of many denominations. At all of these churches, the members come to the meeting and quietly sit in the sanctuary. They do not talk with their friends. They do not high-five each other (yes, I’ve seen this in our ward). They do not run around the chapel doing last-minute preparation for lessons. They don’t slap each other on the backs or call to someone across the room. They don’t laugh loudly or walk up and down the aisle shaking [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.5in;">I usually enjoy going to church. I look forward to it, despite talks that are occasionally less-than-dazzling, overly-perfumed women in the pew in front of me, and the family in the third row that refuses to take their baby out, even when she screams during the sacrament. There’s one pet peeve, though, that irritates me every week. Drives me crazy. Every week without fail. The noise level in the chapel before the meeting starts. Sometimes I feel more like I’m at a football game than at church.<span> </span><span id="more-504"></span><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.5in;">This is a uniquely Mormon issue, from what I’ve seen. I have sung in lots of other churches, been a choir director for another congregation for several years, and attended meetings at many churches of many denominations. At all of these churches, the members come to the meeting and quietly sit in the sanctuary. They do not talk with their friends. They do not high-five each other (yes, I’ve seen this in our ward). They do not run around the chapel doing last-minute preparation for lessons. They don’t slap each other on the backs or call to someone across the room. They don’t laugh loudly or walk up and down the aisle shaking hands. They just sit and listen to the prelude music. Though I can’t know what’s in their minds, I assume they’re feeling the spirit of the Sabbath, meditating or getting in the mood for worship.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.5in;">Why don’t we do the same? Are we naturally a more gregarious and social bunch? Do we love each other so much we’re overjoyed to see our friends? Are we starved for socialization that we use the ten minutes before the meeting? Are we simply rude? Do we have lousy organists whose music isn’t worth listening to? Is it because we’re irreverent and disrespectful? What’s up with this awful habit?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.5in;">Whatever the reason, it seems a losing battle. I’ve been in meetings where the stake president or bishop has stood up and asked people to be quiet. There’s a hush … for about 45 seconds. My son attended a fireside where Elder Bednar finally stood and asked the congregation to be quiet – after two admonitions by the other general authority in attendance. I’ve been in meetings where the organist has made the organ quieter, or louder, or stopped altogether, to demand the audience’s attention. No deal.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.5in;">I feel bad for organists who practice every week, only to provide religious elevator music. Our behavior seems particularly rude towards them. One time my husband, who’s an organist, played the theme song of Mickey Mouse, just to see if anybody would notice. Nobody did.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.5in;">I also feel sorry for anybody who’s trying to prepare themselves for meaningful worship. The hand-shakers, back-slappers, and greeters will come welcome them, often loudly. Neighbors will sit down and chat with them, often loudly. A Sunday School or priesthood teacher may come and ask them to prepare a scripture or story for the lesson an hour or two later. And all of these episodes will be accompanied by the ever-present din of laughter, chitchat … and the occasional high-five. <span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent: 0.5in;">This is our most significant gathering of the week, the time for our holiest ordinance. Is it too much to ask to enjoy a few moments of peace at the beginning of the meeting?</p>
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		<title>Offenders for a Word &#8211; Part 1 &#8211; Is Jesus God?</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/05/10/offenders-for-a-word-part-1-is-jesus-god/</link>
		<comments>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/05/10/offenders-for-a-word-part-1-is-jesus-god/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 May 2008 06:15:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Bruce Nielson</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[christianity]]></category>
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		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=459</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I love words &#8211; I love to read, write, talk &#8211; but I think words leave out almost everything. That [is] frustrat[ing]&#8230; feeling that what we can share with other people is so much more limited than what we actually experience&#8230; (link)&#8211; Jaron Lanier Oh, Lord, deliver us in due time from the little, narrow prison, almost as it were, total darkness of paper, pen, and ink; &#8211; and a crooked, broken, scattered and imperfect language. &#8212; Joseph Smith (History of the Church 1:299) I&#8217;ve thought a lot about the confines of language in the last several years. Having a thought and expressing that thought such that another person understands it perfectly are two very different things. I have grown concerned over the years at what I see as intentional or unintentional &#8220;stumbling&#8221; or &#8220;getting stuck&#8221; on a word. Isaiah 29:21 speaks of being &#8220;offenders for a word&#8221; and I think this is a similar idea. It&#8217;s hard to not be offenders for a word because we think with words, so thinking about words themselves is like thinking about thinking. It&#8217;s hard to do. Worse yet, there are strong incentives to want to be &#8220;offenders for a word.&#8221; We often [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I love words &#8211; I love to read, write, talk &#8211; but I think words leave out almost everything. That [is] frustrat[ing]&#8230; feeling that what we can share with other people is so much more limited than what we actually experience&#8230; (<a href="http://textfiles.fisher.hu/computers/CYBERSPACE/lanier.txt">link</a>)&#8211; Jaron Lanier</p></blockquote>
<blockquote><p>Oh, Lord, deliver us in due time from the little, narrow prison, almost as it were, total darkness of paper, pen, and ink; &#8211; and a crooked, broken, scattered and imperfect language. &#8212; Joseph Smith (<em>History of the Church</em> 1:299)</p></blockquote>
<p>I&#8217;ve thought a lot about the confines of language in the last several years. Having a thought and expressing that thought such that another person understands it perfectly are two very different things.<span id="more-459"></span></p>
<p>I have grown concerned over the years at what I see as intentional or unintentional &#8220;stumbling&#8221; or &#8220;getting stuck&#8221; on a word. <a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/isa/29/21#21">Isaiah 29:21</a> speaks of being &#8220;offenders for a word&#8221; and I think this is a similar idea.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s hard to not be offenders for a word because we think with words, so thinking about words themselves is like thinking about thinking. It&#8217;s hard to do.</p>
<p>Worse yet, there are strong incentives to <span style="text-decoration: underline;">want</span> to be &#8220;offenders for a word.&#8221; We often define our self and group identity by the very words we use. Mormons and non-Mormons alike are guilty of doing this. [1]</p>
<p>But for someone serious about understanding another group, there is no substitute for ridding oneself of &#8220;word-offense&#8221; or &#8220;wordism&#8221; as I sometimes call it. [2]</p>
<p>Consider this list of questions:</p>
<ol type="1">
<li>Do Mormons worship Jesus or do they not worship Jesus?</li>
<li>Was polygamy rescinded or suspended in the LDS Church?</li>
<li>Was polygamy a central doctrine or peripheral doctrine to the LDS Church?</li>
<li>Is polygamy &#8220;doctrinal&#8221; in the LDS Church today?</li>
<li>Do Mormons &#8220;practice polygamy in their temples&#8221; today?</li>
<li>Do Mormons believe in predestination?</li>
<li>Are Mormons monotheists, polytheists, tri-theists, or henotheists?</li>
<li>Do Mormons believe in an &#8220;Eternal&#8221; God?</li>
<li>Do Mormons believe in a finite or infinite God?</li>
<li>Do Mormons believe God is a man?</li>
<li>Do Mormons believe man can become God?</li>
<li>Do Mormons believe in an omnipresent God?</li>
<li>Do Mormons believe Jesus is God?</li>
<li>Do Mormons believe the &#8220;oneness&#8221; of the Godhead/Trinity is a &#8220;oneness of purpose?&#8221;</li>
<li>Do Mormons believe they are justified by grace and works or justified by grace and not works?</li>
<li>Do Mormons believe it&#8217;s possible to earn salvation?</li>
<li>Do Mormons believe baptism is required for salvation?</li>
<li>Is the LDS Church a cult?</li>
</ol>
<p>I have thought a lot about questions like the above and I&#8217;ve come to the realization that I can honestly answer those questions any way I choose because it all depends on how one defines the terms being used.</p>
<p>Indeed, I believe that 80%+ of all anti-Mormon issues and a large percentage of disaffected Mormon issues are really simple word-offense: a refusal to try to understand the underlying thought the speaker was attempting to express through words.</p>
<p>Now call me crazy, but I suspect that the underlying <em>thought</em> the person is trying to express is probably more important than the <em>specific words chosen to express it</em>. <span style="text-decoration: underline;">How could anything but the underlying thought matter?</span></p>
<p><strong>Case Study 1: The Meaning of the Word &#8220;God&#8221;</strong></p>
<p>Let&#8217;s take a seemingly simply example. Is Jesus God? What&#8217;s the answer to this question? The problem is that I can&#8217;t answer this question without assuming or applying some sort of context to the words being used.</p>
<p>Mormons often use the word &#8220;God&#8221; as a name for the Father. So if I&#8217;m talking to another Mormons and I say &#8220;Jesus is not God&#8221; I probably simply mean &#8220;Jesus is not the Father&#8221; &#8211; a point no Christian of any denomination I know of would argue with me. [3] So at least in <span style="text-decoration: underline;">one sense</span> of the word &#8220;God,&#8221; Jesus is not God.</p>
<p>But I know from sad personal experience that I have to be careful when saying something like that in front of a Born Again Christian for fear of setting them off into an attack about how Mormonism doesn&#8217;t teach Jesus is God. But Mormons <span style="text-decoration: underline;">do</span> believe Jesus is God. 2 Ne 26:12 states &#8220;And as I spake concerning the convincing of the Jews, that Jesus is the very Christ, it must needs be that the Gentiles be convinced also <span style="text-decoration: underline;">that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God</span>&#8221; To borrow Catholic language to express myself more clearly, Mormons believe Jesus is not just &#8220;the Son of God&#8221; but He is &#8220;God the Son.&#8221;</p>
<p>So Mormons both believe Jesus is God and isn&#8217;t God. A contradiction? Hardly. I will prove it:</p>
<p>Do a little exercise with me. Grab a dictionary and pick a word at random. Nearly any word will work, though a few won&#8217;t. Here is the word I picked: <a href="http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/justice">Justice</a></p>
<p>Notice how there are little numbers under the word, each with a separate definition. It turns out the word &#8220;justice&#8221; has multiple meanings &#8211; j<span style="text-decoration: underline;">ust like almost every word has multiple meanings</span>. [4] Recognizing that words have multiple meanings is the key to healing our word-offense ways.</p>
<p>In truth, the meaning of words can shift a little or a lot between groups/cultures, over time, and <em><a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2008/04/02/the-whole-church-is-under-condemnation-the-talk-that-changed-the-church/#comment-9775">even for a single individual based on the context of the conversation</a></em>. (See also <a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2008/04/02/the-whole-church-is-under-condemnation-the-talk-that-changed-the-church/#comment-9771">link</a>)  A failure to acknowledge this truth is at the heart of all word-offense.</p>
<p>Despite having thought about &#8220;word-offense&#8221; for years now, I still constantly find myself falling into it. I&#8217;ve found that it&#8217;s easy to get confused over use of a word in a different way that I am used to. And it&#8217;s easy to become offended over that &#8220;misuse&#8221; of a word because, of course, I assume my definition of a word is the &#8220;correct&#8221; one and so if someone else uses the word differently, they must be trying to deceive me.</p>
<p>Let&#8217;s use a related real life example: let&#8217;s suppose that Mormons were to define the word &#8220;God,&#8221; from their religious context, like this (in order of usage frequency): [5]</p>
<p>God</p>
<ol type="1">
<li>The Divine Nature or Godhead (Godhead means &#8220;divine nature&#8221;) as a single unit that is made up of three persons: the Father, the Son, the Holy Ghost</li>
<li>The Father</li>
<li>Any other member of the Trinity or Godhead individually</li>
<li>The whole group of exalted beings that have become &#8220;one&#8221; with the Godhead.</li>
<li>Any individual exalted being that has reached &#8220;oneness&#8221; with the Godhead.</li>
</ol>
<p>So are Mormons monotheists, polytheist, tri-theists, or henotheists?</p>
<p>If I concentrate on definition #1, <a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2008/05/09/a-jewish-rabbi-defines-monotheism/">Mormons are definitely monotheists</a>. If I ignore definition #1 and concentrate on #2 and #3, now Mormons seem more like henotheists. If I concentrate on definition #3 alone Mormons are tri-theists. If I concentrate on definition #5 to the exclusion of all other definitions, Mormons might technically be called polytheists. In other words, Mormons are all of the above, depending on which definition of &#8220;God&#8221; you are referring to. (Their protests aside, this is also true of all Trinitarian Christians as well. [6])</p>
<p>Using John 1:1 as an example. A Mormon would likely read this verse as &#8220;In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God (definition #2), and the Word was God. (definition #3)&#8221; To have any chance of understanding what a Mormon, or anyone of any religion, &#8211; or for that matter scripture itself &#8211; <em>means</em> when they say &#8220;God&#8221; one must first make an attempt to understand how the writer used the word. [7]</p>
<p>Joseph Smith put it this way:</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;I have a key by which I understand the scriptures. I enquire [sic], what was the question which drew out the answer, or caused Jesus to utter the parable? &#8230; To ascertain its meaning, we must dig up the root and ascertain what it was that drew the saying out of Jesus.&#8221; (<em>Teaching of the Prophet Joseph Smith</em>, p. 276 &#8211; 277)</p></blockquote>
<p><strong>But the Words Get In the Way</strong></p>
<p>So now that I&#8217;ve openly admitted that Mormons (and all Christians) are, in some sense, polytheists, you might wonder why I so strongly deny this and actively argue against referring to Mormons (or other Christians) as polytheists.</p>
<p>The reason is that while Mormons might truthfully be termed polytheists (or henotheist, or tritheist) <span style="text-decoration: underline;">in a limited</span> sense, these words do not express the truth about Mormon beliefs in equal weight and understanding.</p>
<p>For example, when most people think of &#8220;polytheism&#8221; they think of classic Greek polytheism where there are multiple gods with separate wills that are at cross purposes. <a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2008/05/09/a-jewish-rabbi-defines-monotheism/">These polytheistic gods fight with each other over dominion and attempt to assert their will on each other.</a> Mormon theology is night and day from classic polytheism and <a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2008/04/06/mormons-as-trinitarians/">has much more in common with Trinitarian beliefs</a>. So calling a Mormon a &#8220;polytheist&#8221; will inevitably cause serious a misunderstanding about Mormon beliefs unless a lot of care is taken to explain the full nuanced belief.</p>
<p>By comparison, calling Mormons &#8220;monotheists&#8221; gives a pretty good approximation of exactly what Mormons believe. So I assert that it&#8217;s appropriate to call Mormons monotheists but inappropriate to call them polytheists except with the greatest of care to clarify your meaning.</p>
<p><strong>Self Definition Vs. Labeling or Defining Others</strong></p>
<p>And then I believe there is a moral issue here too.  The moral demands of self definition are very different than the moral demands of how we define others.</p>
<p>To explain myself better I will use the example of Muslims referring to Catholics and Protestant Christians as polytheists. Are Muslims correct to refer to Christians as polytheists? Based on my arguments above, clearly <span style="text-decoration: underline;">in a sense</span> Christians are polytheists and in another sense they are monotheists. But when Muslims make such an assertion, do they bother to explain that very important nuance? To me, that&#8217;s the important point. Since Muslims do not typically take the time to explain in what sense a Christian might be called a polytheist or in what sense they might be called monotheists &#8212; and more over they do not explain that Christians are primarily monotheists <em>and self define as monotheists!</em> &#8212; I am forced to assume the real intent is to mislead, not clarify, and as such is an act of intolerance. <a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2008/03/04/religions-in-their-own-words-the-morality-of-misrepresenting-other-religions/">Is it the Muslims who don&#8217;t believe as the Christians do who gets to decide which words best convey an undestanding of the Christian religion?</a> [8]</p>
<p>In part 2, we&#8217;ll tackle if Mormons worship Jesus or not.</p>
<p><strong>Notes:</strong></p>
<p>[1] I tried a real life experiment that I think is worth repeating for yourself, if you are curious. See if you get the same results I did.</p>
<p>Try asking a group of &#8220;orthodox&#8221; Christians if they believe they have to have good works to be saved. The answer will be likely be an overwhelming &#8220;no way!&#8221; Now ask the same group if they have to &#8220;be bringing forth good works to be in the state of being saved.&#8221; Now you may find that you get an overwhelming &#8220;absolutely!&#8221; And yet that&#8217;s actually the same question worded in two ways. The real difference is that the first question used the catch phrase &#8220;good works to be saved&#8221; which orthodox Christians have been trained to deny as part of their group identity.</p>
<p>You can play the same trick on Mormons. Ask a Mormon if they are saved by the &#8220;grace (or graciousness) of God alone.&#8221; &#8220;Not on your life!&#8221; you&#8217;ll likely be told, because &#8220;we have to have works to be saved!&#8221; Now ask that same group of Mormons if God owes them salvation if they do good works. &#8220;God doesn&#8217;t own me anything!&#8221; you&#8217;ll probably be told. It would seem that denying the catch phrase &#8220;grace alone&#8221; is part of Mormon group identity.</p>
<p>[2] I invented the word &#8220;wordism&#8221; to describe someone that gets caught up in a word or phrase to the point of denying others with it. I also called such a person a &#8220;wordist&#8221; because they often based their intolerance of others on what words another person uses. But it turns out that these terms were actually coined before by Bob Whitaker, though he used the terms a differently than I do. Specifically he saw &#8220;wordism&#8221; as uniting around a certain set of words in the same way nationalism is uniting around everyone being from one nation. I&#8217;m not sure I want to be associated with Whitaker and besides my using the same terms differently then he will only lead to further wordism &#8211; so I&#8217;m going to use the term &#8220;word-offense&#8221; to replace &#8220;wordism.&#8221;</p>
<p>[3] After all, Paul often uses &#8220;God&#8221; to refer to specifically the person of the Father. (1 Cor 1:30; Rom 15:6; Rom 5:1; Rom 7:25; Rom 10:9; etc.) And of course Jesus spoke the same way without the slightest blush. (John 8:42; Matt 19:17; etc.)</p>
<p>[4] I once mentioned to a friend in my carpool that it&#8217;s hard to get through a Sunday school lesson about how &#8220;God is just&#8221; because no matter how much effort you put into defining your terms upfront, some people in the class will assume you mean &#8220;God is good&#8221; (as per definitions 1 to 4) while others in the class will assume you mean God metes out punishments equally&#8221; (as per definition 5-6) while others will assume you actually meant that God will handle people appropriately according to their circumstances (the correct word here is &#8220;equity&#8221; but people often use &#8220;justice&#8221; for this. See also definition 11.)</p>
<p>My friends eyes suddenly went wide. He told me that the day before, in his Sunday school class, there was a gentleman who kept insisting that &#8220;God is just.&#8221; But when people in the class agreed that God did indeed mete out punishment according to law, the gentleman would get confused and again insist &#8220;No, God is just!&#8221;</p>
<p>[5] I ultimately take full responsibility for this definition. I am a believing Mormon and this is how I define the word &#8220;God.&#8221; Other Mormons might have a slightly different definition or might feel the order of usage is different. In particular, I think many Mormons might feel they&#8217;d like to see the order of definition #1 and #2 inverted.</p>
<p>[6] All Trinitarian Christians could be considered polytheists through equally selective use of their definitions of the word &#8220;God.&#8221; In fact, this is the very reason why Muslims call Christians polytheists</p>
<p>The Athanasius creed bans referring to the members of the Trinity separately and numerically as &#8220;God&#8221; because Christians don&#8217;t want to be polytheists in any sense of the word. (<a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2008/03/04/religions-in-their-own-words-the-morality-of-misrepresenting-other-religions/">The end result is a provable logical contradiction.</a>) Muslims don&#8217;t buy this argument and call Christians &#8220;polytheists&#8221; anyhow, which is what Christians are <span style="text-decoration: underline;">in a very limited sense</span>. But in a more correct sense, Christians are monotheists too. However, I&#8217;m uncomfortable with Muslims calling Christians polytheists, for reasons I&#8217;ll explain later in my article.</p>
<p>[7] Now a creedal Christian might be tempted to say &#8220;well I have only one definition of ‘God&#8217;.&#8221; But that isn&#8217;t true. Look carefully at <a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/matt/19/17#17">Matt 19:17</a>: &#8220;And [Jesus] said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God&#8230;&#8221; It is not possible to make sense of the Bible without a clear understanding that the word &#8220;God&#8221; has more than one meaning depending on context. This is just a true for a Catholic as for a Protestant as for a Mormon. As a Mormon I ask only for the same courtesy all Christians give themselves.</p>
<p>Another exercise for the reader: given the flexibility of the Mormon definitions of the word &#8220;God,&#8221; try to find any scripture in the Bible that disproves the Mormon believe in a plurality of gods. It can&#8217;t be done. All such attempted arguments are actually a form of word-offense. They are merely a refusal to admit to all possible understandings of the Biblical text.</p>
<p>Some verses even unexpectedly assist Mormon theology once we look at the original language. Consider Deut 6:4 &#8220;Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God (definition #1, #2, or #3?) is one Lord:&#8221; It turns out that the word translated &#8220;one&#8221; is the Hebrew word &#8220;echad&#8221; which literally means &#8220;one unity&#8221; (though as with most words, it can carry more than one possible meaning.) Thus this verse, in the original Hebrew might be literally rendered &#8220;Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God (definition #1) is one unity.&#8221;</p>
<p>[8] Of course orthodox Christians will argue that the difference between themselves and Mormons is substance theology, and that since they  believe in substance theology they believe in &#8220;one God&#8221; in some sense <em>more so</em> than Mormons believe in &#8220;one God.&#8221; As I&#8217;ve explained elsewhere, <a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2008/04/06/mormons-as-trinitarians/">I don&#8217;t buy this argument at all.</a> Bottom line for me: Mormons, Catholics, and Protestants all define &#8220;God&#8221; as being multiple persons. There is no logical basis for claiming that substance theology somehow enhances that &#8220;oneness&#8221; in a meaningful and scriptural way.</p>
<p>So in the end, this is the very same moral issue as with Muslims defining Christians. Our Protestant and Catholic neighbors are often guilty of intolerance towards us in this manner just as Muslims are often intolerant to Christians in this manner. No group has a right to define another group differently then how they define themselves unless they take great care to clarify the nuances of meaning. Simply refering to Mormons as &#8220;polytheists&#8221; with no explanation (or without a sincere attempt to understand) is immoral behavior.</p>
<p>Of course, to be fair, Mormons are often guilty of intolerance to other Christians by mispresenting Trinitarian beliefs, so I&#8217;m claiming no special righteousness for Mormons here.</p>
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		<title>God&#8217;s Hit List in the Book of Mormon</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/04/26/gods-hit-list-in-the-book-of-mormon/</link>
		<comments>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/04/26/gods-hit-list-in-the-book-of-mormon/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Apr 2008 11:21:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Hawkgrrrl</dc:creator>
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		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=292</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[One of the most unseemly and disturbing images in the Book of Mormon is when Nephi is commanded to cut the head off of Laban who lies drunken at his feet.  So, what did Laban do to get on God&#8217;s hit list?  Did he deserve it?  Was it necessary?  And how did some of the other deserving baddies (such as Laman &#38; Lemuel) escape with their heads intact?  For the purpose of this post, I will set aside war-time or mass killings (sorry, but the arm cutting off incident is out) and only consider the individual killings in which God was specifically implicated in the text as an accomplice. Back to Laban.  This Book of Mormon story is often cited as an example of Nephi&#8217;s obedience.  It is also pretty disgusting.  After Nephi hacks off his head with his own sword, he takes the clothes off the headless body and puts them on so he can pretend to be Laban.  Yech.  Nephi hesitates.  He doesn&#8217;t ask if Laban deserves to die in his sins, like when Hamlet vacillates about killing his uncle.  He hesitates because he doesn&#8217;t want to get his hands dirty.  He doesn&#8217;t want to commit a sin. 10 And it came to pass [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of the most unseemly and disturbing images in the Book of Mormon is when Nephi is commanded to cut the head off of Laban who lies drunken at his feet.  So, what did Laban do to get on God&#8217;s hit list?  Did he deserve it?  Was it necessary?  And how did some of the other deserving baddies (such as Laman &amp; Lemuel) escape with their heads intact?  <span id="more-292"></span></p>
<p><img class="alignright" style="float: right;" src="http://webpages.charter.net/micah/nephi.jpg" alt="" width="203" height="278" />For the purpose of this post, I will set aside war-time or mass killings (sorry, but the arm cutting off incident is out) and only consider the individual killings in which God was specifically implicated in the text as an accomplice.</p>
<p><em>Back to Laban</em>.  This Book of Mormon story is often cited as an example of Nephi&#8217;s obedience.  It is also pretty disgusting.  After Nephi hacks off his head with his own sword, he takes the clothes off the headless body and puts them on so he can pretend to be Laban.  Yech.  Nephi hesitates.  He doesn&#8217;t ask if Laban deserves to die in his sins, like when Hamlet vacillates about killing his uncle.  He hesitates because he doesn&#8217;t want to get his hands dirty.  He doesn&#8217;t want to commit a sin.</p>
<blockquote><p>10 And it came to pass that I was <sup>a</sup><a title="1 Sam. 15: 3 (3-33)." type="A" href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_ne/4/10a"><span style="color: #40639d;">constrained</span></a> by the Spirit that I should kill Laban; but I said in my heart: Never at any time have I shed the blood of man. And I shrunk and would that I might not slay him.</p>
<p id="1_ne/4/11" onclick="return toggleMarked(event, this)">  11 And the Spirit said unto me again: Behold the <sup>a</sup><a title="Deut. 3: 3; 1 Sam. 17: 46 (41-49)." type="A" href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_ne/4/11a"><span style="color: #40639d;">Lord</span></a> hath <sup>b</sup><a title="1 Ne. 7: 11." type="A" href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_ne/4/11b"><span style="color: #40639d;">delivered</span></a> him into thy hands. Yea, and I also knew that he had sought to take away mine own life; yea, and he would not hearken unto the commandments of the Lord; and he also had <sup>c</sup><a title="1 Ne. 3: 26." type="A" href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_ne/4/11c"><span style="color: #40639d;">taken</span></a> away our property.</p>
<p id="1_ne/4/12" onclick="return toggleMarked(event, this)">  12 And it came to pass that the Spirit said unto me again: Slay him, for the Lord hath delivered him into thy hands;</p>
<p id="1_ne/4/13" onclick="return toggleMarked(event, this)">  13 Behold the Lord <sup>a</sup><a title="Num. 25: 17; Deut. 12: 29; Ps. 139: 19; 1 Ne. 17: 37 (33-38); D&amp;C 98: 32 (31-32)." type="A" href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_ne/4/13a"><span style="color: #40639d;">slayeth</span></a> the <sup>b</sup><a title="TG Justice; TG Punishment; TG Wickedness." type="B" href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_ne/4/13b"><span style="color: #40639d;">wicked</span></a> to bring forth his righteous purposes. It is <sup>c</sup><a title="Alma 30: 47; TG Life, Sanctity of." type="C" href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_ne/4/13c"><span style="color: #40639d;">better</span></a> that one man should perish than that a nation should dwindle and perish in <sup>d</sup><a title="TG Unbelief, Unbelievers." type="B" href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_ne/4/13d"><span style="color: #40639d;">unbelief</span></a>.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Does Laban deserve to die?  Not to blame the victim, but any decent defense attorney would point out that Laban was not a nice guy.  He wouldn&#8217;t give them the brass plates even for a very generous price; up to that point, he was merely being difficult.  After that, he lusted after their property and stole from them, and then he ordered his servants to kill them.  And he was a lush, lying drunken in the streets, so not even a polite, gentlemanly sort of person.  The Spirit&#8217;s rationale is basically &#8220;the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few,&#8221; in this case, Laban.</p>
<p>Was the murder justifiable homicide?  Would Nephi have been convicted for this murder?  I&#8217;m no legal expert, but I have watched a lot of Law &amp; Order, so I&#8217;m close.  Nephi could plead self-defense because Laban had ordered his servants to kill him and his brothers.  He could probably plead severe emotional disturbance after the beating he took from his brothers who didn&#8217;t want to go back and the difficulty of leaving their home to live in the desert.  He might even get that defense upgraded to PTSD (post-tramatic stress disorder).  Nephi would also have a solid case to plead insanity (he saw an angel in the cavity of the rock and heard a voice tell him to kill Laban).  And he was really just doing what God (or the Spirit) told him to do, so he could have rolled on God (or the Spirit) in a plea bargaining agreement.  And no jury is going to convict God (they might convict the Spirit, but just try putting Him in a holding cell), even on Law &amp; Order.</p>
<p>So, Laban was on God&#8217;s hit list because he was wicked, and he was at the wrong place at the wrong time and got in the way of God&#8217;s plan.  So he had to go.  But, didn&#8217;t a nation dwindle and perish in unbelief anyway?  The Lamanites weren&#8217;t exactly church-going, law abiding citizens for the next few hundred years.  So shouldn&#8217;t Laman and Lemuel have been on God&#8217;s hit list to prevent their future generations from dwindling and perishing in unbelief due to their poor examples?</p>
<p>I see a few problems with killing off Laman &amp; Lemuel:</p>
<ul>
<li>While many of their kids were bad, many were good.  In fact, they kind of came out on top at the end.  Although not all benefited from the plates of brass, some did.</li>
<li>The spirit progeny of prematurely dead Laman &amp; Lemuel would presumably still have to be born somewhere, some other time.</li>
<li>Can you really totally blame the parents?  Don&#8217;t we believe that men will be punished for our own sins, and not for Adam&#8217;s transgression?</li>
<li>God didn&#8217;t order the hit; therefore, it&#8217;s not okay to kill.  The rule is don&#8217;t kill.  Except when God says.  Then, go for it.</li>
</ul>
<p><img class="alignright" style="float: right;" src="http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/IMAGES/burn-ind.gif" alt="" width="116" height="107" />Contrast this with another group of people in the Book of Mormon who were on God&#8217;s hit list:  the faithful who were being martyred in the <em>auto-da-fe</em> after being converted to Christianity by Alma and Amulek.  Amulek wanted to stretch forth his hand to stop the killing</p>
<blockquote>
<p id="alma/14/10" onclick="return toggleMarked(event, this)">11 But <span class="searchword"><strong>Alma</strong></span> said unto him: The Spirit constraineth me that I must not stretch forth mine hand; for behold the Lord receiveth them up unto himself, in <sup>a</sup><a title="TG Exaltation." type="B" href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/alma/14/11a"><span style="color: #40639d;">glory</span></a>; and he doth suffer that they may do this thing, or that the people may do this thing unto them, according to the hardness of their hearts, that the <sup>b</sup><a title="Ex. 23: 7; Ps. 37: 9 (8-13); Alma 60: 13; D&amp;C 103: 3; TG Justice." type="C" href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/alma/14/11b"><span style="color: #40639d;">judgments</span></a> which he shall exercise upon them in his wrath may be just; and the <sup>c</sup><a title="TG Cruelty; TG Martyrdom." type="B" href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/alma/14/11c"><span style="color: #40639d;">blood</span></a> of the <sup>d</sup><a title="Lam. 4: 13; Mosiah 17: 10." type="A" href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/alma/14/11d"><span style="color: #40639d;">innocent</span></a> shall stand as a witness against them, yea, and cry mightily against them at the last day.</p>
<p onclick="return toggleMarked(event, this)">Admittedly, there are some differences to these two incidents:</p>
</blockquote>
<ul>
<li>
<p onclick="return toggleMarked(event, this)">Nephi takes action, whereas Alma is constrained to non-interference.  He does not actively kill anyone.</p>
</li>
<li>
<p onclick="return toggleMarked(event, this)">Laban was guilty of attempted murder and died in his sins.  The victims in Alma&#8217;s story were completely innocent and would theoretically have salvation.</p>
</li>
<li>
<p onclick="return toggleMarked(event, this)">Laban was standing in the way of other people&#8217;s salvation (or so we are told).  The victims in Alma&#8217;s story were killed to provide damnation to their killers.  Weren&#8217;t they pretty much damned already?  Alma wanted to stop the killing, not prevent it from starting. </p>
</li>
</ul>
<p onclick="return toggleMarked(event, this)">So, who is safe from God&#8217;s hit list in the Book of Mormon?  Not the wicked, and not the innocent and righteous.  So, perhaps the real lessons here are:</p>
<ol>
<li>
<p onclick="return toggleMarked(event, this)">When and how we die isn&#8217;t that important to God, just how we live our lives.  No one is totally safe from being killed in nasty ways.  Think of <em>that</em> as you are drifting off to sleep tonight.</p>
</li>
<li>
<p onclick="return toggleMarked(event, this)">God merely cares that His plan goes forward unchecked, so interfering with His plan could lead to an unfortunate incident involving one&#8217;s death.  I&#8217;m just sayin&#8217;.</p>
</li>
</ol>
<p onclick="return toggleMarked(event, this)"> So, will God cut Laban some slack on judgment day for being killed at his peak of wickedness since the order came down from on high?  And would the world have been a better place without Laman and Lemuel making it to the promised land?</p>
<p onclick="return toggleMarked(event, this)">And how does this compare with God&#8217;s hit list in the OT?  (No one is on God&#8217;s hit list in NT or D&amp;C&#8211;and in the D&amp;C, a few are pretty darn lucky they are not!)  The weirdest individual killing in the OT, IMO, is Uzzah being killed for steadying the ark.  It would be hard to argue that Uzzah was in the way of God&#8217;s plan.  So, does that mean that individual killings in the OT (implicating God) are to make an example out of someone or to teach an object lesson (e.g. &#8220;don&#8217;t steady the ark&#8221;)?  Or is that just the best we can do with such weird material when confronted with teaching a Gospel Doctrine lesson?  Or, perhaps the ark had some sort of technological security system that made it fatal to steady vs. God actually having to intervene in real-time to strike Uzzah down (a la the Smoke Monster on LOST).</p>
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		<title>The Sun Never Sets on the Mormon Empire:  Cultural Colonialism</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/04/24/cultural-colonialism-the-sun-never-sets-on-the-mormon-empire/</link>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 21:24:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Hawkgrrrl</dc:creator>
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		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=323</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I was talking with a French colleague at dinner about the differences between European politics and American politics, and he made a statement that left an impression. European politics are colored by their colonialist histories and how to balance a preservation of their culture while dealing with the other cultures they have essentially subordinated over time. For example, he mentioned the Muslims in France who demanded equal consideration of their separate cultural preferences in the very strict and isolationist French culture. The French people are very concerned with preserving their culture, values, and language (even governing the number of foreign words allowed to be added per year). I believe there is a Mormon parallel to be understood. Obviously, there were actual Mormon colonies early in the pioneering days, which is how most of the West was settled. However, that is not the topic I want to explore. I have only had a few experiences with what I will call modern-day colonial Mormons. When I was a teenager (1985), I met my first &#8220;colonial&#8221; Mormon in my home ward. A family moved into the ward from Utah. All the membership prior to that were from the local area. Immediately, the mother [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was talking with a French colleague at dinner about the differences between European politics and American politics, and he made a statement that left an impression. European politics are colored by their colonialist histories and how to balance a preservation of their culture while dealing with the other cultures they have essentially subordinated over time. For example, he mentioned the Muslims in France who demanded equal consideration of their separate cultural preferences in the very strict and isolationist French culture. The French people are very concerned with preserving their culture, values, and language (even governing the number of foreign words allowed to be added per year). I believe there is a Mormon parallel to be understood.<span id="more-323"></span></p>
<p><img class="alignright" style="float: right;" src="http://www.cmhg.gc.ca/cmh/book_images/high/v2_c1_s02_ss02_02.jpg" alt="" width="126" height="160" />Obviously, there were actual Mormon colonies early in the pioneering days, which is how most of the West was settled. However, that is not the topic I want to explore. I have only had a few experiences with what I will call modern-day colonial Mormons.</p>
<ol>
<li>When I was a teenager (1985), I met my first &#8220;colonial&#8221; Mormon in my home ward. A family moved into the ward from Utah. All the membership prior to that were from the local area. Immediately, the mother of the family started (subtly) pointing out things that were &#8220;wrong&#8221; about how our ward did things. We should have early morning seminary, not weekly (despite having six different high schools and a 25 mile commuting radius). The Young Women should do crafts and present group musical numbers. The bishop should do something about the crazy Pentacostal convert who kept shouting &#8220;hallelujah&#8221; and rapping her fan on the pew when a particularly good point was made in church.  And we suddenly had to have a Pioneer Day parade, even though it wasn&#8217;t a recognized holiday and hardly anyone had pioneer ancestry.  Little things like that.</li>
<li>My second experience was at the end of my mission (1990).  An older couple was assigned to one of the wards as &#8221;leadership&#8221; missionaries.  The wife immediately began focusing on getting the local sisters interested in &#8221;homemaking&#8221; projects (mostly crafts).  She expressed to me her disbelief that none of the sisters knew how to crochet or knit!  (Perhaps because it was a warm-climate island).  Previously, they had spent their homemaking meetings discussing how to have stronger marriages and how to help sisters in need.  I question whether this was an upgrade.</li>
</ol>
<p>So, what happens in the cycle of colonialism?</p>
<ul>
<li>A colonizing group decides to expand to new territories, exporting their culture and traditions and imposing them on those colonized areas.   This is also characterized by:
<ul>
<li>A desire to preserve the cultural elements of the colonizing group and to impose those traditions, values, and practices on other cultures.</li>
<li>A condescending attitude toward local populace and customs.</li>
<li>A paternalistic approach to educate others on &#8220;the right way.&#8221;</li>
</ul>
</li>
<li>An initial fascination by the local group for the colonizing culture (e.g. Anglophiles); an (initial) agreement that the colonizing culture is in some way preferred or &#8220;better.&#8221;  (Some converts, especially in the early days, awaited for instruction from HQ as it were).</li>
<li>Eventually, one of two things happens:
<ul>
<li>An eventual break at the local level with the colonizing group.  This could be a violent, intentional break (e.g. the American Revolution), a passive yet intentional break (e.g. Indian rights reform) or a more evolutionary break as a new culture emerges in the local area which supersedes the colonizing culture (e.g. Roman Catholic Church vs. Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church).</li>
<li>Guilt among the colonizing group about treatment of the local populace accompanied by awkward and problematic repatriation (e.g. French believe first and foremost in equality, yet do not like admitting the Muslim culture into their tightly-controlled society).  This can happen when the local populace&#8217;s issues cannot be satisfactorily resolved to create an equal status through independence.</li>
</ul>
</li>
</ul>
<p>But perhaps a third option, in the case of the church, is to become a truly world-wide church (the stone that fills the earth) in which diversity of culture is embraced while retaining centralized doctrine.  Is that really an achievable aim or is colonization a human tendency that is so ingrained it&#8217;s inevitable?  A lot has been written about the introduction of harmful plants and animals that changed the eco-systems of North America, such as the honeybee.  Are colonizing Mormons aware enough of the potentially harmful elements they may be introducing (e.g. funeral potatoes, green jello, prolific zucchini plants) into the native cultures to avoid it?  IMO, colonialism is harmful to both the local group and to the colonizing group if it 1) implies superiority of one culture over the other, 2) shifts the focus to cultural elements away from doctrinal, or 3) creates cultural rifts and inequities between different groups of the church.</p>
<p>As Elder Uchdorff mentioned in conference, we should embrace the &#8220;faith of our fathers&#8221; and most importantly of our &#8220;Heavenly Father.&#8221;  Jello optional.  Crafts not required.  Bring your own flan to the Pioneer Day parade that&#8217;s being held in someone&#8217;s backyard because none of the local members hail from pioneer stock; instead, they are all pioneers with their own tales of conversion and courage&#8211;they are among the first members of the church within their own family trees.</p>
<p>So, have any of you encountered cultural colonialism? Or has this largely been done away with over time (as you see, my examples are not recent)?  What is cultural colonialism?  Is it cultural colonialism that conference is in English, always held in Utah, even though there are more LDS outside the US now?</p>
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		<title>A Non-Member Kirtland Experience</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/04/15/a-non-member-kirtland-experience/</link>
		<comments>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/04/15/a-non-member-kirtland-experience/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Apr 2008 20:05:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Hawkgrrrl</dc:creator>
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		<description><![CDATA[I recently read an interesting post by a non-member couple and their visit to Kirtland.  IMO, their contrast of the Kirtland temple (Community of Christ) tour guides and the missionaries at the LDS-owned sites was cringe-worthy and brings up a few questions about how we as church members respond to (non-investigative) questions. Here&#8217;s what these non-LDS visitors had to say about our missionaries: They were pushy, rude, and ignorant whereas the woman with the Community of Christ was helpful, friendly, and knowledgeable. Their post also describes an interesting discourse between the visitor and a missionary in which the missionary continually resorted to testifying rather than answering questions.  Now, I know that testifying is used to bring in the spirit, and to invite people to come to Christ.  But, is this the best approach with visitors to a historical landmark who are requesting historical information?  Isn&#8217;t this like the caution from October 2007 General Conference that &#8220;there is a difference between interest and mere curiosity&#8221; (Elder Ballard). So, why do non-LDS people visit LDS sites?  Because they are interested in history. Because someone in their party dragged them along to this boring historical site or promised them ice cream afterwards. Because they are curious about [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I recently read an interesting <a href="http://adtelevavi.wordpress.com/2008/03/29/a-visit-to-the-kirtland-temple/" target="_blank">post </a>by a non-member couple and their visit to Kirtland.  IMO, their contrast of the Kirtland temple (Community of Christ) tour guides and the missionaries at the LDS-owned sites was cringe-worthy and brings up a few questions about how we as church members respond to (non-investigative) questions.<span id="more-320"></span></p>
<p>Here&#8217;s what these non-LDS visitors had to say about our missionaries:</p>
<blockquote><p>They were pushy, rude, and ignorant whereas the woman with the Community of Christ was helpful, friendly, and knowledgeable.</p></blockquote>
<p><img src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/300px-kirtlandtemple2.jpg" alt="300px-kirtlandtemple2.jpg" width="132" height="151" align="right" />Their post also describes an interesting discourse between the visitor and a missionary in which the missionary continually resorted to testifying rather than answering questions.  Now, I know that testifying is used to bring in the spirit, and to invite people to come to Christ.  But, is this the best approach with visitors to a historical landmark who are requesting historical information?  Isn&#8217;t this like the caution from October 2007 General Conference that &#8220;there is a difference between interest and mere curiosity&#8221; (Elder Ballard).</p>
<p>So, why do non-LDS people visit LDS sites? </p>
<ol>
<li>Because they are interested in history.</li>
<li>Because someone in their party dragged them along to this boring historical site or promised them ice cream afterwards.</li>
<li>Because they are curious about or interested in the church.
<ul>
<li>Maybe they know someone who is LDS or have family who are LDS.</li>
<li>Maybe they are investigating the church.</li>
<li>Maybe they are associated with a splinter group of the church (esp. in Kirtland).</li>
<li>Maybe they are antagonistic toward the church, although I can think of better ways to spend your vacation if so.</li>
</ul>
</li>
<li>Because they took a wrong turn when they were trying to get to the world&#8217;s biggest ball of twine.  Boy, are these guys going to be disappointed!</li>
</ol>
<p>Of those groups, I suppose it is possible that any of them might become interested if they feel the spirit.  Maybe.  However, it&#8217;s probably equally likely that most of the non-LDS visitors will want historical information as they often do at Temple Square.</p>
<p>All proselyting faiths have a certain schtick and it varies from denomination to denomination and over time within a faith. But are historical sites best manned with proselyting missionaries?</p>
<p>When I was in Kirtland about 5 years ago, the historical sites run by the church were newly re-opened, and I found the LDS guides to be very knowledgeable about the history.  They were all older married couples.  The contrast I encountered was that in the Kirtland temple, the tour guides de-emphasized the visitation of the Savior to the temple and the other spiritual manifestations that both our faiths believe took place there, although when asked, they did point those things out.  The CoC presentation seemed very politically correct to me, extremely non-confrontational, and very mainstream Christian.  The guides were scholarly and polite.  I asked the CoC tour guide what denominations the visitors were, and she said about 90% were LDS.</p>
<p>The LDS sites emphasized the spiritual aspects (what revelations were received, where the Savior was seen, etc.), but when I asked questions about the archeology and the layout of the village, they were still very knowledgeable.  They also spontaneously offered to lead hymns or prayers or have moments of silence, which frankly made me feel a little uncomfortable (did I look like I wanted to burst into song?), but there were no non-LDS in our group so I am not sure how that would have been perceived by others.</p>
<p>So, what do you think?  Are we hectoring unsuspecting tourists with our constant testifying and creating dissonance for future dialog?  Or are we on the right track and the CoC tour guides are just being too politically correct?  Discuss.</p>
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