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	<title>Mormon Matters &#187; eternal progression</title>
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	<itunes:subtitle>A weekly podcast exploring Mormon current events, pop culture, politics and spirituality</itunes:subtitle>
	<itunes:summary>A weekly podcast exploring Mormon current events, pop culture, politics and spirituality</itunes:summary>
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		<item>
		<title>Eternal Progress vs. Eternal Increase:  A Poll</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2010/06/01/eternal-progress-vs-eternal-increase-a-poll/</link>
		<comments>http://mormonmatters.org/2010/06/01/eternal-progress-vs-eternal-increase-a-poll/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Jun 2010 06:28:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Hawkgrrrl</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Mormon]]></category>
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		<category><![CDATA[correlation]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Culture]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[doctrine]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[eternal increase]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[eternal progress]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[eternal progression]]></category>
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		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=11471</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[One of the distinct LDS doctrines is that of eternal progression:  the idea that we continue to grow and develop as individuals throughout eternity unless through our own choices we stop progressing.  But there are two different interpretations of this doctrine that both seem to be supported by authoritative statements.  Are both interpretations correct?  Or is one correct and the other incorrect? Eternal Progress.  This means that individuals in this life are progressing and growing, learning new things, and becoming more and more like our heavenly parents on our (long) way toward godhood or god-adult-hood.  In fact, if we do not continue to learn in this life, we also cease to learn and grow after death, being relegated to one of the &#8220;static&#8221; kingdoms:  telestial or terrestrial.  Two alternate twists on this, though, allow for progress after death even if one does not merit exaltation (the Celestial Kingdom): Multiple Mortal Probations.  In this version, as with reincarnation, someone can return to progress through another mortal life.  This theory would also explain how Jesus could be perfect (maybe it wasn&#8217;t his first life?). Progress between Kingdoms.  Although decried as one of the Seven Deadly Heresies by Bruce R. McConkie (who also [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of the distinct LDS doctrines is that of eternal progression:  the idea that we continue to grow and develop as individuals throughout eternity unless through our own choices we stop progressing.  But there are two different interpretations of this doctrine that both seem to be supported by authoritative statements.  Are both interpretations correct?  Or is one correct and the other incorrect?<span id="more-11471"></span></p>
<p><strong><img src="http://ayearinthenow.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/eternal-life.jpg" alt="" width="255" height="249" />Eternal Progress</strong>.  This means that individuals in this life are progressing and growing, learning new things, and becoming more and more like our heavenly parents on our (long) way toward godhood or god-adult-hood.  In fact, if we do not continue to learn in this life, we also cease to learn and grow after death, being relegated to one of the &#8220;static&#8221; kingdoms:  telestial or terrestrial.  <span style="color: #808080;">Two alternate twists on this, though, allow for progress after death even if one does not merit exaltation (the Celestial Kingdom):</span></p>
<ul>
<li><span style="color: #808080;"><strong>Multiple Mortal Probations</strong>.  In this version, as with reincarnation, someone can return to progress through another mortal life.  This theory would also explain how Jesus could be perfect (maybe it wasn&#8217;t his first life?).</span></li>
<li><span style="color: #808080;"><strong>Progress between Kingdoms</strong>.  Although decried as one of the Seven Deadly Heresies by Bruce R. McConkie (who also had some enchanting things to say about evolution), this version allows for individuals who did not merit exaltation to continue to learn and grow throughout eternity, and move between kingdoms as they increase in light and knowledge.</span></li>
</ul>
<p><strong><img class="alignright" src="http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/images/2007b/Littletons.jpg" alt="" width="264" height="155" />Eternal Increase</strong>.  An alternate understanding of the doctrine of eternal progression is that it merely refers to a continuation of one&#8217;s dynasty through eternity, adding spiritual offspring (increase) to someone who is righteous.  This model is likely to be favored by those who are more inclined to view God as static and omniscient rather than also continuing to learn and grow.  It also seems to be the version of this doctrine that is more in vogue with the current correlation committee&#8217;s emphasis.  Because it does not require continuous learning, it can be supported by a strict obedience model  (because individual learning and development is a byproduct of trial and error).</p>
<p><strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Assorted Quotes on this Doctrine</span></strong>:</p>
<p><strong><img class="alignright" src="http://30.media.tumblr.com/EpqHnaT804rzecmqWG6sEs5T_500.jpg" alt="" width="252" height="183" /></strong>&#8220;We prepare for eternal life by daily learning, improving, and building the kingdom of God.What are we here for? Eternal life is the ability to progress and increase forever. This is the greatest gift that can be conferred on intelligent beings, to live forever and never be destroyed.&#8221;  Brigham Young</p>
<p>&#8220;Satan does not have a body, and his eternal progress has been halted. Just as water flowing in a riverbed is stopped by a dam, so the adversary’s eternal progress is thwarted because he does not have a physical body.&#8221;  lds.org (from a CES statement)</p>
<p>&#8220;We will have the blessing of being sealed in a family forever with the promise of eternal increase.&#8221;  Henry B. Eyring</p>
<p>&#8220;And through Joseph Smith he says: “This is eternal lives—to know the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath sent. This exaltation meant godhood for them and creation of worlds with eternal increase for which they would probably need, eventually, a total knowledge of the sciences.&#8221;  Spencer W. Kimball</p>
<p>&#8220;Developing spirituality is critical to our eternal progress. The fruits of eternal progress are manifest in joy, peace, love, hope, increased confidence in the Lord.&#8221;  Elaine L. Jack</p>
<p>So what&#8217;s your view?</p>
<p>[poll id = "179"]</p>
<p>Discuss.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
			<wfw:commentRss>http://mormonmatters.org/2010/06/01/eternal-progress-vs-eternal-increase-a-poll/feed/</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>28</slash:comments>
		</item>
		<item>
		<title>Is God Still Progressing? (Poll Included)</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2010/02/23/is-god-still-progressing-poll-included/</link>
		<comments>http://mormonmatters.org/2010/02/23/is-god-still-progressing-poll-included/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Feb 2010 06:04:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Hawkgrrrl</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[christ]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[church]]></category>
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		<category><![CDATA[correlation committee]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Culture]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[doctrine]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[eternal increase]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[eternal progression]]></category>
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		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=9912</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Last month, one of the RS/PH lessons was about the nature of God.  Since the lesson was only about a page and a half long, the discussion in RS ended up raising the question whether God is still progressing or whether, being God He has arrived and is no longer progressing.  Read and and share your views. On the one hand, we teach that God is omniscient, all knowing, the smartest of the smart, prognosticator of prognosticators, etc.  OTOH, we teach the doctrine of eternal progression:  that as man is, God once was, and as God is, man may become.  We also teach that eternal progression is part of God&#8217;s plan for us, and that we are to learn and grow &#8220;line upon line, precept upon precept.&#8221; Since &#8220;the glory of God is intelligence&#8221; (D&#38;C 93:36) and &#8220;intelligence or the light of truth was not created nor made nor indeed can be&#8221; (D&#38;C 93:29) and when &#8220;there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all&#8221; (Abraham 3:19) &#8211; does that mean that there are hierarchies of Gods based on intelligence [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Last month, one of the RS/PH lessons was about the nature of God.  Since the lesson was only about a page and a half long, the discussion in RS ended up raising the question whether God is still progressing or whether, being God He has arrived and is no longer progressing.  Read and and share your views.<span id="more-9912"></span></p>
<p><img class="alignright" src="http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/ni/GOD2.jpg" alt="" width="138" height="179" />On the one hand, we teach that God is omniscient, all knowing, the smartest of the smart, prognosticator of prognosticators, etc.  OTOH, we teach the doctrine of eternal progression:  that as man is, God once was, and as God is, man may become.  We also teach that eternal progression is part of God&#8217;s plan for us, and that we are to learn and grow &#8220;line upon line, precept upon precept.&#8221;</p>
<p>Since &#8220;the glory of God is intelligence&#8221; (D&amp;C 93:36) and &#8220;intelligence or the light of truth was not created nor made nor indeed can be&#8221; (D&amp;C 93:29) and when &#8220;there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all&#8221; (Abraham 3:19) &#8211; does that mean that there are hierarchies of Gods based on intelligence or the &#8220;light of truth&#8221;?  Is intelligence something that we can&#8217;t increase?  Does that mean that eternal progression is not increasing our intelligence?</p>
<p>  So, what does eternal progression mean?</p>
<ul>
<li>Does it mean that we continue to make mistakes and learn from them?  Are we allowed to make mistakes after we die?  Does God still make mistakes?  Does he have some discarded practice earths floating around out there?  (Maybe that&#8217;s what happened to Pluto)</li>
<li>Does access to knowledge constitute eternal progression (e.g. celestial Wikipedia, when the earth becomes a Urim &amp; Thummim)?</li>
<li>Does God explore strange new worlds (presumably created by other Gods), seek out new civilizations and boldly go?</li>
<li>How does God become like His Father?  Is that just getting old, but no additional skills are required, kind of like going from CEO to being on the board of directors?</li>
<li>Is there a God threshold?  At which point do we say &#8220;Now THAT&#8217;s Godhood.  Yesterday, that was pre-Godhood, but today you&#8217;ve arrived&#8221;?  Is that when one has atoned?  If so, are there enough atonements to go around or are there lower level God positions for those who aren&#8217;t going to go that far?</li>
<li>Can stupid people become Gods?  Wouldn&#8217;t stupid Gods have stupid spiritual kids?  Do different planets have different intelligences?  What if we ARE the stupid ones?</li>
<li>Wouldn&#8217;t it be boring as all get out if you were a God and there was nothing new to learn or experience?  Is God in a constant state of ennui?  Isn&#8217;t that why the Greek gods were always chasing tail and creating havoc &#8211; boredom + power?</li>
<li>Isn&#8217;t lack of progress the Mormon definition of hell?  If God doesn&#8217;t progress, doesn&#8217;t that = hell?  That can&#8217;t be right.</li>
</ul>
<p>So, take a moment to consider what your opinion is and answer the following poll:</p>
<p>[poll ID = "141"]</p>
<p>Discuss.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
			<wfw:commentRss>http://mormonmatters.org/2010/02/23/is-god-still-progressing-poll-included/feed/</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>32</slash:comments>
		</item>
		<item>
		<title>Virtual RS/PH #17:  The Great Plan of Salvation</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/09/07/virtual-rsph-17-the-great-plan-of-salvation/</link>
		<comments>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/09/07/virtual-rsph-17-the-great-plan-of-salvation/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Sep 2008 10:55:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Hawkgrrrl</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Asides]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[church]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[eternity]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[faith]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[families]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[God]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Happiness]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[inter-faith]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Jesus]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[LDS]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Mormons]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[plan of salvation]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[prophets]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[questioning]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[religion]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[repentance]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[restoration]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[salvation]]></category>
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		<category><![CDATA[smith]]></category>
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		<category><![CDATA[theology]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[thought]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Word of Wisdom]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[eternal progression]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[intelligence]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=1616</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[A unique facet of Mormonism is our view of God&#8217;s plan for his children, or our purpose in life.  Today&#8217;s lesson focuses on what JS restored regarding this plan. The beginning of the lesson talks about Joseph&#8217;s re-translation of the Bible (the JST) that resulted in clarifying passages and words throughout the Bible, the Book of Moses, the expansion of Matthew 24, and several &#8220;spin-off&#8221; revelations as Joseph asked for further enlightenment about different principles, including D&#38;C 74, 76, 77, 86 and 91.  From the Book of Moses: &#8220;For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.”  Moses:  1:37, 39 The &#8220;Plan of Salvation&#8221; as we have it today resulted from JS&#8217;s efforts to restore &#8220;plain and precious&#8221; parts of the scriptures that would more clearly explain what happened before we were born, what happens after we die, and why we are here on the earth.  Some components that were restored or clarified by JS: That we existed before birth in a pre-mortal world with God &#38; Jesus.  Exactly what this looked like is still up for grabs, though.  Did we live in families?  In BYU-approved housing?  Was there a [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A unique facet of Mormonism is our view of God&#8217;s plan for his children, or our purpose in life.  Today&#8217;s <a href="http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=da135f74db46c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&amp;locale=0&amp;sourceId=c5a720596a845110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&amp;hideNav=1&amp;contentLocale=0">lesson</a> focuses on what JS restored regarding this plan.<span id="more-1616"></span></p>
<p><a href="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/planofsalvation.jpg"><img class="size-medium wp-image-1618 alignright" title="planofsalvation" src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/planofsalvation.jpg" alt="" width="202" height="158" /></a>The beginning of the lesson talks about Joseph&#8217;s re-translation of the Bible (the JST) that resulted in clarifying passages and words throughout the Bible, the Book of Moses, the expansion of Matthew 24, and several &#8220;spin-off&#8221; revelations as Joseph asked for further enlightenment about different principles, including D&amp;C 74, 76, 77, 86 and 91.  From the Book of Moses:</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.”  Moses:  1:37, 39</p></blockquote>
<p>The &#8220;Plan of Salvation&#8221; as we have it today resulted from JS&#8217;s efforts to restore &#8220;plain and precious&#8221; parts of the scriptures that would more clearly explain what happened before we were born, what happens after we die, and why we are here on the earth.  Some components that were restored or clarified by JS:</p>
<ul>
<li>That we existed before birth in a pre-mortal world with God &amp; Jesus.  <em><span style="color: #0000ff;">Exactly what this looked like is still up for grabs, though.  Did we live in families?  In BYU-approved housing?  Was there a dress code?</span></em></li>
<li>That there was a plan, and we all sanctioned it.  <em><span style="color: #0000ff;">Even those who have never voted in a single election apparently weighed in on this one.</span></em></li>
<li>That Satan had an alternate plan that was rejected, resulting in his being cast out.  <em><span style="color: #0000ff;">I always wonder if we had debates or if we vacillated at all; or were we just so dang smart we immediately saw through that &#8220;bad&#8221; plan?</span></em></li>
<li>That matter is eternal; that God &#8220;organized&#8221; rather than &#8220;created&#8221; the earth.  That we are eternal in nature, without beginning or end.  <span style="color: #0000ff;"><em>This puts us on much more equal footing with God than in other faiths, and is considered blasphemous to some.  Yet, as a Mormon, I have to say this is one aspect of our religion that totally ROCKS!</em></span></li>
<li>That obtaining a body, gaining knowledge and growing in faith are the purpose of life on earth.  <span style="color: #0000ff;"><em>This is a Mormon way of putting it; the Protestant version is that we believe our works save us rather than grace.  It is through grace we are saved; it is through our progression we increase our ability to withstand glory (God&#8217;s and our own).</em></span></li>
<li>That beings with bodies are more powerful than beings of Spirit only.  The body is not a corruption that defiles us; it glorifies us and is a part of the soul.  <em><span style="color: #0000ff;">This is again, a very unique teaching of Mormonism.  The body is not just a hollow husk that we gratefully discard at death; it is essential to our progress, and it is more glorious and powerful than spirit alone.</span></em></li>
<li>That each of us has moral agency and will be held responsible for our choices of good or evil; that those choices affect our ability to receive and channel spiritual light.  We are constantly in motion, either progressing or digressing.  <em><span style="color: #0000ff;">This idea that it&#8217;s not really possible to stand still is probably true, but a little disturbing.  Life is long.</span></em></li>
<li>That our eternal reward is not pass/fail, but is based on the degree of glory we have attained through enlightenment, faith, increasing our intelligence, and becoming like Christ and our father in Heaven.  <span style="color: #0000ff;"><em>Another aspect of Mormonism that I find very appealing; we are not &#8220;God&#8217;s pets,&#8221; but His children.</em></span></li>
</ul>
<p><span style="color: #800080;"><em>Q:  Are there other specific aspects of the plan of salvation and the purpose of life that we know because of revelations to the Prophet Joseph Smith that I missed? </em></span></p>
<p><span style="color: #800080;"><em>Q:  Which of these do you find most compelling, enlightening and helpful?  Are there any you don&#8217;t care for or find helpful?</em></span></p>
<p><span style="color: #800080;"><em>Q:  Do you like our plan of salvation more or less than those proposed by other religions (e.g. Hinduism, Islam, Protestantism, Catholicism)?  What do you like and not like?</em></span></p>
<p><a href="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/heavenlyfathermodifiedmr71.jpg"><img class="size-medium wp-image-1620 alignright" title="heavenlyfathermodifiedmr71" src="http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/heavenlyfathermodifiedmr71.jpg" alt="" width="169" height="131" /></a><strong>Eternal Intelligences</strong></p>
<blockquote><p>“Intelligence is eternal and exists upon a self-existent principle. It is a spirit from age to age and there is no creation about it. All the minds and spirits that God ever sent into the world are susceptible of enlargement.  God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. The relationship we have with God places us in a situation to advance in knowledge. He has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker intelligences, that they may be exalted with himself, so that they might have one glory upon another, and all that knowledge, power, glory, and intelligence, which is requisite in order to save them in the world of spirits.”  (1844)</p></blockquote>
<p><em><span style="color: #800080;">Q: How does this influence the way we understand our own nature?  How does this influence how we should treat other people?</span></em></p>
<p><span style="color: #800080;"><em>Q:  Are you one of the stronger or weaker intelligences?  How do you know?  When you meet a weaker intelligence, do you think &#8220;I am so awesome!&#8221;?  Do you think that&#8217;s what happens when a stronger intelligence meets you?</em></span></p>
<p><strong>Bodies Rule!</strong></p>
<blockquote><p>“The design of God before the foundation of the world was that we should take tabernacles [bodies], that through faithfulness we should overcome and thereby obtain a resurrection from the dead, in this wise obtaining glory, honor, power, and dominion.”  (1843)</p>
<p><a name="29"></a></p>
<p>“We came to this earth that we might have a body and present it pure before God in the celestial kingdom. The great principle of happiness consists in having a body. The devil has no body, and herein is his punishment. He is pleased when he can obtain the tabernacle of man, and when cast out by the Savior he asked to go into the herd of swine, showing that he would prefer a swine’s body to having none. All beings who have bodies have power over those who have not.”  (undated, JS quoted by William Clayton)</p></blockquote>
<p><span style="color: #800080;"><em>Q:  How does this knowledge affect the way we should care for our bodies?  How is this unique perspective different from other religions?  From secular views?</em></span></p>
<p><span style="color: #800080;"><em>Q:  How can we strengthen the connection between our bodies and spirits to make our bodies receptacles of light?</em></span></p>
<p><strong>You Wish The Devil Made You Do It</strong></p>
<blockquote><p>“President Joseph Smith … observed that Satan was generally blamed for the evils which we did, but if he was the cause of all our wickedness, men could not be condemned. The devil could not compel mankind to do evil; all was voluntary. Those who resisted the Spirit of God, would be liable to be led into temptation, and then the association of heaven would be withdrawn from those who refused to be made partakers of such great glory. God would not exert any compulsory means, and the devil could not; and such ideas as were entertained [on these subjects] by many were absurd.”  (1841, paraphrased in Times &amp; Seasons)</p>
<p>“Satan cannot seduce us by his enticements unless we in our hearts consent and yield. Our organization is such that we can resist the devil; if we were not organized so, we would not be free agents.”  (1841, JS quoted by William P. McIntire)</p></blockquote>
<p><span style="color: #800080;"><em>Q:  Does this view marginalize Satan&#8217;s influence because we are really the ones who are free agents and responsible for our actions?  Would you rather you could blame Satan for your shortcomings?</em></span></p>
<p><span style="color: #800080;"><em>Q:  Does Satan like his job or does he think it totally blows but he&#8217;s just putting on a happy face for the minions?  Does he get burned out?  Is he just watching the millennial clock?</em></span></p>
<p>For the teachers out there, good luck!  For the rest of you, discuss.</p>
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		<title>Obedience:  Virtual RS/PH #13</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/07/13/obedience-virtual-rsph-13/</link>
		<comments>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/07/13/obedience-virtual-rsph-13/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Jul 2008 20:30:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Hawkgrrrl</dc:creator>
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		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=638</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Welcome to the second virtual co-ed 3rd hour.  This week&#8217;s lesson is a topic that is often a seething hotbed of Mormon Matters controversy:  &#8220;Obedience:  When the Lord Commands, Do It.&#8221; I just spent the last week in Hollywood, so I thought it would be fun to try different readings of that title to see how the emphasis changes the meaning.  (This reminds me of that Seinfeld episode where Kramer says, &#8220;These pretzels are making me thirsty!&#8221;). Obedience:  When the Lord Commands, Do It &#8211; with the emphasis on &#8220;obedience,&#8221;  it kind of sounds like:  &#8220;Obedience!  When the Lord Commands, Do It:  The Musical!&#8221;  The score would probably be lame. Obedience:  When the Lord Commands, Do It &#8211; &#8220;When&#8221; as in &#8220;when and if,&#8221; or as we&#8217;ve discussed elsewhere on MM, you have to obey when it&#8217;s commanded and not when it is not (e.g. cutting off Laban&#8217;s head is A-OK when commanded, but beheading people in general is frowned upon; polygamy is grand if you&#8217;ve been asked to do it, but you may be told no if you show up at JS&#8217;s door rubbing your hands together and asking for some spiritual wife action.) Obedience:  When the Lord Commands, Do It.  But [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Welcome to the second virtual co-ed 3rd hour.  This week&#8217;s lesson is a topic that is often a seething hotbed of Mormon Matters controversy:  <a href="http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=da135f74db46c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&amp;locale=0&amp;sourceId=e98720596a845110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&amp;hideNav=1&amp;contentLocale=0">&#8220;Obedience:  When the Lord Commands, Do It.&#8221;</a><span id="more-638"></span></p>
<p>I just spent the last week in Hollywood, so I thought it would be fun to try different readings of that title to see how the emphasis changes the meaning.  (This reminds me of that Seinfeld episode where Kramer says, &#8220;These pretzels are making me thirsty!&#8221;).</p>
<p><strong><span style="color: #000000;"><img class="alignright" style="float: right;" src="https://www.halloweenunlimited.com/images/product/thumbnails/th_36002.jpg" alt="" /></span></strong></p>
<p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;"><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Obedience</span></span></strong>:  When the Lord Commands, Do It &#8211; <span style="color: #0000ff;"><em>with the emphasis on &#8220;obedience,&#8221;  it kind of sounds like:  &#8220;Obedience!  When the Lord Commands, Do It:  The Musical!&#8221;  The score would probably be lame.</em></span></p>
<p>Obedience:  <strong><span style="color: #ff0000;"><span style="text-decoration: underline;">When</span></span></strong> the Lord Commands, Do It &#8211; <em><span style="color: #0000ff;">&#8220;When&#8221; as in &#8220;when and if,&#8221; or as we&#8217;ve discussed elsewhere on MM, you have to obey when it&#8217;s commanded and not when it is not (e.g. cutting off Laban&#8217;s head is A-OK when commanded, but beheading people in general is frowned upon; polygamy is grand if you&#8217;ve been asked to do it, but you may be told no if you show up at JS&#8217;s door rubbing your hands together and asking for some spiritual wife action.)</span></em></p>
<p>Obedience:  When <strong><span style="color: #ff0000;"><span style="text-decoration: underline;">the Lord</span></span></strong> Commands, Do It.  <em><span style="color: #0000ff;">But surely, when Allah commands (or your terror cell leader says he does), you might want to think twice before you do it.  So, this reading places the emphasis on who is doing the commanding:  the Lord, one of the Lord&#8217;s servants, or your Aunt Sally telling you what she thinks the Lord wants you to do.  So&#8211;important to verify the source?</span></em></p>
<p>Obedience:  When the Lord <strong><span style="color: #ff0000;"><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Commands</span></span></strong>, Do It.  <em><span style="color: #0000ff;">So, if the Lord&#8217;s just suggesting it (earrings &amp; tatoos?), you could drag your feet (e.g. Oliver Cowdery translating the BOM?).</span></em></p>
<p>Obedience:  When the Lord Commands, <strong><span style="color: #ff0000;"><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Do</span></span></strong> It.  <em><span style="color: #0000ff;">Emphasis on action (vs. thought or questioning?).  This is probably the most orthodox reading.</span></em></p>
<p>Obedience:  When the Lord Commands, Do <strong><span style="color: #ff0000;"><span style="text-decoration: underline;">It</span></span></strong>.  <em><span style="color: #0000ff;">Well, that just makes the meaning of &#8220;it&#8221; ambigious in this context.  Which actually brings up a good point &#8211; when He commands, do what exactly?  This title isn&#8217;t really proper grammar&#8211;the pronoun &#8220;it&#8221; is lacking a direct object to the verb &#8220;commands&#8221; to explain the pronoun.  Are all commandments clear about what exactly should be done?  (Remember, we shouldn&#8217;t need to be commanded in all things).  Or is that perceived ambiguity really just an excuse to vacillate?</span></em></p>
<p><strong>Think about this</strong>:  What did obedience mean to JS and to the early church members?  How has that meaning evolved over time?  What does it mean to LDS today?  What does it mean to you personally at this stage of your spiritual journey?  Here are some of JS&#8217;s thoughts on obedience from the lesson:</p>
<p><strong><span style="color: #800080;"><img class="alignright" style="float: right;" src="http://www.traininglines.org.uk/images/dog%20and%20bone.gif" alt="" width="110" height="132" />Earning Salvation</span></strong></p>
<blockquote><p>“To get salvation we must not only do some things, but everything which God has commanded.&#8221; (1844)</p></blockquote>
<p>This is a clear &#8220;earning salvation&#8221; quote.  The word used here was &#8220;salvation,&#8221; although current teaching would upgrade that to &#8220;exaltation&#8221; (salvation is free for everyone through the atonement; exaltation costs extra).  How has the church&#8217;s understanding of the role of faith and works evolved?  Has the dialogue spurred by evangelical churches added clarity or confusion to our actual doctrine?  In short, why are we so doggone defensive about this?</p>
<p><strong><span style="color: #800080;">Church Unity Imperative</span></strong></p>
<blockquote><p>“When instructed, we must obey that voice, observe the laws of the kingdom of God, that the blessing of heaven may rest down upon us. All must act in concert, or nothing can be done, and should move according to the ancient Priesthood; hence the Saints should be a select people, separate from all the evils of the world—choice, virtuous, and holy.&#8221;  (1844)</p></blockquote>
<p>How did JS&#8217;s obsession with building an earthly kingdom of God (a Zion or city of Enoch) influence his emphasis on obedience as a means to purifying the saints into a &#8220;holy people&#8221;?  Are we still attempting to build a kingdom of God on earth today or is the church&#8217;s global status (staying put vs. gathering to Zion) shifting us toward a broader moral spectrum for practical reasons (shirtless calendar guy would probably say there is still crackdown on infractions from HQ)?  Does obedience purify us?  If so, how?  Is it important to become a &#8220;holy people&#8221; or are we fooling ourselves to think so?  Are we collectively getting holier or less holy over time?  (Evidence for &#8220;holier&#8221; = fewer apostles are being ex&#8217;d than in JS&#8217;s day).</p>
<p><strong><span style="color: #800080;"><img class="alignright" style="float: right;" src="http://woodlandsparkchurch.com/wpblog/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/peer_pressure.jpg" alt="" width="167" height="101" />When True Is Unpopular</span></strong></p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;The object with me is to obey and teach others to obey God in just what He tells us to do. It mattereth not whether the principle is popular or unpopular, I will always maintain a true principle, even if I stand alone in it.” (1842)</p></blockquote>
<p>Clearly, JS stood alone in some unpopular principles (e.g. plural marriage, King Follett discourse, etc.).  If all people have the light of Christ which tells them what is good, why are some true principles unpopular?  How can we tell if an unpopular principle is true or just outdated?  What types of peer pressure (from other churches) exist for the church?  How does the church cope with unpopular (yet true) principles? </p>
<p><strong><span style="color: #800080;">Principle-Based Obedience</span></strong></p>
<blockquote><p> <em>Joseph Smith taught the following in April 1843, later recorded in </em><a class="scriptureRef" onclick="newWindow('http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/130//20-21#20')" href="http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/130/20-21#20" target="contentWindow"><em>Doctrine and Covenants 130:20–21</em></a><em>:</em> “There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—and when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.”</p>
<p>“All blessings that were ordained for man by the Council of Heaven were on conditions of obedience to the law thereof.” (1843)</p></blockquote>
<p>How does the emphasis on the underlying principle (the law upon which it is predicated) vs. the obedience itself add meaning to this idea?  Here are some possible examples to consider:  temple attendance vs. temple worship, accepting a calling vs. magnifying a calling, prayer vs. seeking to know God, being born again as an event vs. enduring to the end faithfully (finishing the race).  How does changing to principle-centered worship vs. activity-centered worship make us more spiritual?  Why is it so easy to forget the underlying principles and start checking our duties off a list?</p>
<p style="text-align: left;"><strong><span style="color: #800080;"><a href="http://bp0.blogger.com/_dk3dI-5mt7o/RgQlw_wTADI/AAAAAAAAAEA/fAqU7_OAhq4/s320/halo.jpg" target="_top"><img class="alignright" style="float: right;" src="http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:zRfgVorvBV6j8M:http://bp0.blogger.com/_dk3dI-5mt7o/RgQlw_wTADI/AAAAAAAAAEA/fAqU7_OAhq4/s320/halo.jpg" alt="" width="86" height="86" /></a></span></strong></p>
<p style="text-align: left;"><strong><span style="color: #800080;">Becoming Holy Like God</span></strong></p>
<blockquote><p>“Remember, brethren, that He has called you unto holiness; and need we say, to be like Him in purity? How wise, how holy; how chaste, and how perfect, then, you ought to conduct yourselves in His sight; and remember, too, that His eyes are continually upon you.” (1834)</p></blockquote>
<p>This is theosis teaching (on par with NT brand theosis anyway) from a very early date (10 years before King Follett breathed his last).  Does this brand of &#8220;eternal progression&#8221; distinguish LDS from other Christian sects?  How has that distinction changed over time?  Is &#8220;eternal progression&#8221; a true but unpopular principle in our day?  Is obedience requisite to progression or does it hamper progression?</p>
<p>Discuss.</p>
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