A spirited and in-depth discussion of the suspension of BYU basketball player Brandon Davies for an Honor Code violation. After reviewing the basic issues at play in the Davies incident, the panel turns its attention to the Honor Code itself. Do the values the Honor Code promotes and the way the code is administered at the university lead to a culture of honesty, integrity, and genuine spiritual growth? What are the costs and benefits of standards that seem to equate external appearance, specific behaviors, and unquestioning allegiance to institutions with spiritual health? Are there better methods for instilling Christian values in future Mormon leaders?
Joining host Dan Wotherspoon today are Joanna Brooks, Tom Grover, and Ashley Sanders.
Comments 45
30 years ago I went to BYU because the U or USU were places you went to lose your testimony. Now I tell my kids BYU is where you go if you want to lose your testimony.
I didn’t stay long at the Y only one year. BYU was too much of a party school for me. Even though I never drank do drugs or that sex thing I also could always find something to do other than study or go to class.
After my mission I when to the University of Minnesota, There if you didn’t drink do drugs or that sex thing all therwas left was to study.
Dude, or brother dude, you might want to give some serious thought to going back to the University of Minnesota and either enroll or ask for your money back.
Your spelling and typing are atrocious.
Let us all be crystal clear on this matter.
You don’t lose your testimony. You, consciously start the process of walking away from the light, making decisions on a daily basis, to alienate, that very spirit, which represents the most precious of all gifts, the gift of the holy ghost.
This is not an accident.
It just doesn’t happen, in some myseterious fashion.
You are faced with choices and then you decide.
That is when you and your family discover, just how developed your character is and to what level you either rise or fall.
You choose to LET GO, of the proverbial rod of iron, or, you choose to HOLD FAST.
I know. I speak from personal experience.
Ken
Hi Ken,
Thanks for joining in the conversation. Your comment is substantive and the point of it appreciated; clearly you have a passionate opinion about how testimonies are gained and lost. To me, however, your point loses a lot of its potential effectiveness in terms of being an attractor for someone coming to see things your way through the insults with which you led off.
Dan
Really Dan, insulting.
Am I to believe, you, could not perceive the tone of “tongue in cheek”. Did I really need to spell it out.
The inspitation for that line, originated from the movie “space cowboys” If you are a avid fan of the celluloid cinema, I am sure you would have seen that coming, a mile down the road. If you are not, you, would not have seen it all.
Regardless, in the future, I, will take the time, to preface, any and all of my attempts of humor.
It’s not, as if I called him a dumbass.
That would have been insulting and hurtful.
I mean, come on Dannnnnnnnnnnnn, if a person is going to pound on their chest and proclaim to the world, that they, attented a “Big 10 school” over the “Y”. I would think, at the very least, you, would think, that they would take the time, to proof read their negative comment concerning, what they perceived to be a wanton atmosphere, at “BYU”.
Having said all of that, Dan, I express my appreciation to you, for taking the time to express your feelings.
As a single, full time, stay at home dad, of an incredible special needs little girl, by the name of Savannah, whom has been diagnosed with five different syndromes.
I welcome the opportunity, to engage in a healthy, discussion.
go with God brother.
Ken
Ken, Sorry you felt my note was insulting. Your post came in response to the earliest comment in the podcast discussion, and as podcast moderator and host of these discussions, I reacted out of concern that people who visit here and see it first will think that your post’s ad hominem is the norm for this discussion, which encourages engagement on the issues but, like I think all good discussion should (especially if it aims to be persuasive), doesn’t devolve into personal attack, even if one thinks the person sharing their ideas are dead wrong.
I am glad you hear you were attempting to be funny. As I view your response here and in the several other responses to other comments you posted in the past few hours, if they, too, were meant to be read as congenial in spirit, for me, I can’t say I think you’re succeeding in communicating that good humor. Maybe your humor is an acquired taste? I’ll keep reading and see if it begins to grow on me.
Hi Dan,
First and for most, I did not think your reply to me, was insulting.
I was saying, “really Dan, insulting”as in, you really think my reply to Tahadden, was insulting.
Is this clearer.
Since you chose to bring it up, let me ask you a pointed question.
What is your, agenda, here, in this blog/forum.??
What is the purpose of this blog/forum??
As I read the different submissions to you, personally, I find myself wondering out loud, ” what is their problem”.
If they are gong to take the time to kick you around, they, at the very least, should get their proverbial ducks in a row, versus, striking out, as a juvenile, who has been cheated out of the last cupcake.
No Dan, my other submissions, are/were not meant to be funny.
My agenda, was to put a voice, to what I believe, many are thinking and believe, yet, they will not, or can not respond.
Funny, no.
As I read the submissions of ignorance, negativity, border line bigotry, all incased with in their slings and arrows, not only aimed at The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, but, aimed at those of us on this earth, that are willing to stand up and raise the bar.
Heyyyyyyyy, I think, I have seen a painting, depicting this very thought. Yeahhhhhh, there is this great and spacious building, with all walks of life, pointing, scoffing and ridiculing, those that chose, to follow the foot steps in the sand, that lead to the straight and narrow, all the while holding on to the rod of iron. Yeahhhhh, this sounds so familiar.
Funny, Dan. There is nothing funny about, having to stand up to those, whom are filled with such venom and bitterness, whos agenda, is, to pull down the brightest, the best, that which is good, down to their level, where they have chose to reside, in the dark shadows.
There is a great book which depicts the people in this world. It is called “Balcony People” We, are all, either, Balcony People or Basement People.
Funny, hardly.
But, that is just me.
Ken
Hi Dan,
First and for most, I did not think your reply to me, was insulting.
I was saying, “really Dan, insulting”as in, you really think my reply to Tahadden, was insulting.
Is this clearer.
Since you chose to bring it up, let me ask you a pointed question.
What is your, agenda, here, in this blog/forum.??
What is the purpose of this blog/forum??
As I read the different submissions to you, personally, I find myself wondering out loud, ” what is their problem”.
If they are gong to take the time to kick you around, they, at the very least, should get their proverbial ducks in a row, versus, striking out, as a juvenile, who has been cheated out of the last cupcake.
No Dan, my other submissions, are/were not meant to be funny.
My agenda, was to put a voice, to what I believe, many are thinking and believe, yet, they will not, or can not respond.
Funny, no.
As I read the submissions of ignorance, negativity, border line bigotry, all incased with in their slings and arrows, not only aimed at The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, but, aimed at those of us on this earth, that are willing to stand up and raise the bar.
Heyyyyyyyy, I think, I have seen a painting, depicting this very thought. Yeahhhhhh, there is this great and spacious building, with all walks of life, pointing, scoffing and ridiculing, those that chose, to follow the foot steps in the sand, that lead to the straight and narrow, all the while holding on to the rod of iron. Yeahhhhh, this sounds so familiar.
Funny, Dan. There is nothing funny about, having to stand up to those, whom are filled with such venom and bitterness, whos agenda, is, to pull down the brightest, the best, that which is good, down to their level, where they have chose to reside, in the dark shadows.
There is a great book which depicts the people in this world. It is called “Balcony People” We, are all, either, Balcony People or Basement People.
Funny, hardly.
But, that is just me.
Ken
I can see now what you were saying. I guess without a question mark after the opening line, “Really Dan, insulting,” I’d read it as your having felt insulted by my challenging your approach. Sorry for my part of that confusion.
As far as an agenda goes for both me and this blog, I’d love good discussion that shows respect for others. I am fine with the expression of strong opinion, as well as moments of anger and outrage when someone is in pain over an issue we take on, but when someone seems to be attacking the messenger and impugning the good faith I believe lies behind the vast majority of posts, my tendency is to want to jump in and call a foul. I don’t follow most blogs exactly because of the deterioration in civility that very often starts occurring within the first dozen comments, and I’m hoping this one can avoid that, even if it means my jumping in. It’s still very early in this re-booted podcast and discussion and I may find it too hard to keep trying to do this, but right now, I’m still giving it a shot.
Hi Dan,
First and for most, I did not think your reply to me, was insulting.
I was saying, “really Dan, insulting”as in, you really think my reply to Tahadden, was insulting.
Is this clearer.
Since you chose to bring it up, let me ask you a pointed question.
What is your, agenda, here, in this blog/forum.??
What is the purpose of this blog/forum??
As I read the different submissions to you, personally, I find myself wondering out loud, ” what is their problem”.
If they are gong to take the time to kick you around, they, at the very least, should get their proverbial ducks in a row, versus, striking out, as a juvenile, who has been cheated out of the last cupcake.
No Dan, my other submissions, are/were not meant to be funny.
My agenda, was to put a voice, to what I believe, many are thinking and believe, yet, they will not, or can not respond.
Funny, no.
As I read the submissions of ignorance, negativity, border line bigotry, all incased with in their slings and arrows, not only aimed at The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, but, aimed at those of us on this earth, that are willing to stand up and raise the bar.
Heyyyyyyyy, I think, I have seen a painting, depicting this very thought. Yeahhhhhh, there is this great and spacious building, with all walks of life, pointing, scoffing and ridiculing, those that chose, to follow the foot steps in the sand, that lead to the straight and narrow, all the while holding on to the rod of iron. Yeahhhhh, this sounds so familiar.
Funny, Dan. There is nothing funny about, having to stand up to those, whom are filled with such venom and bitterness, whos agenda, is, to pull down the brightest, the best, that which is good, down to their level, where they have chose to reside, in the dark shadows.
There is a great book which depicts the people in this world. It is called “Balcony People” We, are all, either, Balcony People or Basement People.
Funny, hardly.
But, that is just me.
Ken
I want to smack the hand of whoever it is that took Brandon Davies off the BYU basketball team for breaking the honor code. The timing was horrible and probably the worst case of public shaming and humiliation by the church that I have ever seen. Not only does every single person in the United States know that he “sinned” but its been spread throughout the mormon community so that every mormon knows him by name. Can you imagine what it will be like for that man to ever go to another church building? To be in his classes at BYU? He has been publicly humiliated and made an example of and the publicity was completely unnecessary. They could have waited to suspend him until the media wouldn’t have grabbed the headlines and then he wouldn’t have suffered public humiliation. How can what he did possibly justify the humiliation and public scrutiny that he has received?
I agree with you. It is absolutely terrible that people around this country get to discuss the minute details of a young man’s sex life, and that they can do it under the false banner of discussing honor. It’s perverse and wrong, and it makes life really hard for a real human being.
Bravoooooooo, Ashsan
Let us all stand up and applaud, the young man, for falling flat on his face morally, for breaking his word, (if you don’t understand the principle of the honor code, you, actually sign your name, making a promise, giving your word. It sounds as if you are not familiar with any of those principles) and then letting down his team mates as well as the BYU cougar support system.
Yes, let us all stand up and applaud, him, for being a real human being, that took the path of least resistance.
A real human being??? Just what is your definition of a real human being.??
What do you call, all the other students at the Y who live up to their end of the bargain, better yet, what do you call all the people on this earth, that stay true to the covenants and promises they make, the ones that don’t steal, lie, cheat, deceive, betray, on and on and on.
What do you call them????
Why would you scoff and cast your slings and arrows at those of us, who are willing to lay it on the line and willingly count ourselves amongst those that find build such an organization that requires our best. Why is that such a foreign principle to you.
Why do you, find, that choosing the path of least resistance, is so attractive.
What is it, that you, find so appealing, to be associated with those, that aren’t willing to give their all and ask nothing of you.???
How do you grow??
How do you rise above, when you are continually creating an atmosphere of comfort for your self and those around you, to be less.
Yes Ashsan, let us all stand up and applaud him and anyone else for being less and giving less.
But, that is just me.
Ken
He obviously came out with whatever he did knowing that he would get scrutinized and knowing that it would go public. Why don’t you try looking at all the facts before opening your mouth…
Right. Like he decided that giving up basketball glory and being made fun of across the country as “that kid that had sex and got kicked out of school” crossed his mind and he wanted that attention. As far as I have heard, someone outed him. He didn’t make the choice.
1. He didnt get kicked out of school.
2. Neither the school nor the church did nothing to scrutinize or humiliate him; he broke a rule and got kicked off the team for breaking a rule that he signed on saying he’d keep it. Then the sports broadcasters put it all over the news being kind of a big thing, do you want the school to just sweep it under the rug and pretend that it never happened? If BYU waited until after the tournament ends to kick him off they would be doing the wrong thing by kicking him off when it works for the team. You all need to use your heads and really think about this for one second…
In the world of giving your word and making a promise, it is referred to as, ” thinking past the tip of your nose”
It is referred to as “the unintended consequences”
It is referred to as “being an adult”
Dude, get your facts straight.
If you have a beef with the church, “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints”, you are using the wrong forum.
Regardless, you need to at least make an attempt to sound as if you have had any type of life experience, that would help you see, that what he, did, was just wrong, on any level at any school.
Honor code or no honor code, tell me any culture, in any country on this planet, that promotes, pre-marital sex and impregnating your girl friend and not being married.
The Mormon church is no more the The Church of Jesus Christ administered by Latter-day Saints than whatever any other institution most definitely isnât and never would be (decided for yourself what those non-Christian organizations are). In other words, this is Christ?! This is how the Master of love and compassion would act — to openly shame and hold up for public ridicule one of Godâs sons?
Heâs a human being with a normal sex drive and proclivities to love a woman. Heâs not a murderer; heâs not a sexual predator; heâs not an extortioner, etc, etc. Heâs just a young man who slipped up and who no doubt always had good intentions — whereby the spirit was willing, but the flesh was weak.
Shame on those administrators and/or church leaders for handling this situation in the way they did.
I would venture to conjecture that had this been the son of a General Authority it would not have been handled like this. And if this was motivated by even a tinge of racial prejudice, then by golly…
I lament that Mormonism, like so many other so-called âChristianâ churches, is not of Christ and His Way.
Paul, are you serious,
Have you even picked up the Bible and opened it and at least read a page.
If you say you know Christ.
By the way, you do know, He is the Great Jehovah, right………………and you do understand or at least read how the Great Jehovah, felt about sin, especially sexual sin. Are you with me.
If you say you have this knowledge of who Christ is and who He has been since the beginning of time on this earth and from all eternity in the pre-mortal world.
Then you could not, say what you said, with a straight face.
Giving one’s best is what God the Father and His son Jesus Christ is all about.
How could you possibly profess to know Christ, what Christ taught and what the mission of Christ is all about and not believe He requires our best.
Don’t confuse the sermon on the mount with everyone gets a pass on sin, do what you want, how what you want and just say, I believe and all is well, or show up in some dark, black box, known as a confessional, don’t let anyone see your face, not look anyone in the eye and confess your sins to some, no name, faceless individual, you have no relationship with and feel all is well.
I assure you Paul, God the Father, nor Jesus Christ would find that acceptable in the least.
Again Paul, if you had an inkling, of who God the Father and Jesus Christ were, you would understand crystal clear, that they set down serious standards, commandments, rules. Placed in every one of His children, (us) a moral compass, known as the “light of Christ”.
Are we to believe Brandon, was just picked up off the street somewhere and give a pair of sneakers, a backpack and uniform and asked to sign his enrollment papers and oh by the way just sign this antiquated honor code and then we will see you on the court.
Just because, you lack the personal integrity, to stand up and have yourself counted amongst those that are willing to lead a life of purity, refraining to fall to the proverbial Babylon.
Paul, don’t judge the rest of us whom are willing to gladly sign our name on the dotted line, stating in crystal clear language, we will keep our word, we will be true to our God and to our selves.
Don’t judge us according to the man you see everyday in that mirror you look into.
No one is forcing anyone to apply to the Y, to attend the Y, go near the Y, use any of the facilities at the Y.
If you or anyone else is not willing to step up and full fill their end of the agreement, as in giving their word. As in keeping their promise…..
Then don’t go.
Go somewhere, where nothing is required of you. Take the path of least resistance. Go where no one cares whether you attend, or fail, or participate at all.
If you are looking for an organization that requires, nothing less than your best. Than you are in over your head, as far as commitment, conviction and integrity are concerned.
In my short life time, I have heard and seen at least three BYU presidents state clearly, that there are thousands if not tens of thousands of students around the world, who more than qualify to enter BYU, pleading for entrance, to a School, owned and operated by an organization, that does, require a students very best and does represent The God of This Earth, even Jesus Christ.
Dear Friend (@Hornadayken): I am very long in the tooth with regards to membership in the LDS church, and I am adequately schooled in LDS doctrine and policy. Having lived more than three score years and a member for almost just as long, one would think qualifies me to have more than just a rudimentary knowledge, hence I know of what I speak. My CV of church service more than qualifies me.
I do not, however speak directly *for* the Savior, but speak *of* the Savior based upon my own personal experiences and knowledge in all things relating to Him. To be sure, Chistus omnia mihi est.
I take it that you are younger than me (âIn my short lifetime…â) and no doubt have not had the same leadership, teaching experiences, etc, that I have had, hence it is difficult to place old heads on young shoulders. You may take what I have just asserted as an indignant assault, but I am just stating what I have come to realize over many, many, years line upon line, here a little (and sometime a lot!) and there a little. To be sure, I have more of an understanding of what it means to be a Christian now than I ever had as a practicing, active TBM.
I am tempted to bring to your attention the arrogance of your comments insinuating that for some reason you seem to know the Savior and what He is all about more than me (âI assure you Paul, God the Father, nor Jesus Christ would find that acceptable in the least.â) as well as commenting on your personal attack of my character (âJust because, you lack the personal integrity, to stand up and have yourself counted amongst those that are willing to lead a life of purity,), but I was young once too, and far less Christian than I am now and still striving to be. Hence, you are forgiven, or in other words, I understand where you are coming from. I only mention this to say that it is very much in the realm of possibility that you too, one day may see things (the LDS church, etc.) very differently as you advance in your lifeâs experiences.
I am not privy to all the facts of this unfortunate event, but honor code or not, EVERYONE sins and falls short of the mark. And when I learn of something like this it saddens me because I have had privileged knowledge of principally four separate individuals in four separate cases involving moral âslip-upsâ which resulted in doing greater damage to these individuals and some of their family members than the sin itself ever did. And yet I know of one other case involving a high ranking local LDS official, who when caught, was dealt with very discretely. In essence, the crime was âswept under the rugâ, and I was personally instructed by the GA handling the case to âbury it.â Sometimes it pays to have friends in high places, or if you are in a high place, that may (but not always) help as well if you âscrew upâ — pun intended!
Peace.
Really Anon_ as in anonymous.
This is a classic example of unintended consequences and a sterling example of why the church opperates in the bright sunlight of day, face to face, versus, in some, small, dark, black box, where no one knows your name and no one ever sees your face.
How incredibly convenient.
It requires, conviction, commitment and a level of integrity, that most people do not have in them, to sit down, in the light of day, face to face and confess ones sins.
Bravoo for Brandon Davies for being such an individual.
I have always found, that those who lack integrity, conviction and commitment are the ones who cry foul (no pun intended) the loudest, when the bar is raised higher than their character has the level of integrity to measure up to.
But that is just me.
Ken
Example: if a congregation member has this same problem and cannot partake of the sacrament, does the bishop or counselors announce to everyone the reason why that person cannot partake? No.
That’s what the team should have done, just suspend him and keep his personal business away from everyone’s mouth, like it’s been said before, Brandon and his girlfriend will no longer be seen the same at any sacrament meeting, no matter if it’s this Sunday or in a couple years. the team could have said, just like many other college teams have done, “we have suspended him for violation of team or school rules” and not get into specifics.
Miguel, Arizona
They didn’t get into specifics. What are you reading, what press conference are you watching??? Perhaps members of the team and media have speculated, but as for Dave Rose or any other staff member of the BYU Board of Education or the staff on the Athletics comittee, they haven’t said anything of then and honor code violation…
The Honor Code office did not release the details of the violation. They never do. That sort of stuff was leaked by third parties and then the media picked up on it. If BYU itself revealed the sordid details of things, that would be cause for a very different discussion.
This young man’s public humiliation is a type of honor killing, as it harmed his chances for a future. Church’s that attack their own so openly under the guise of “honor”, hold little value for Christ’s example of love and forgiveness.
Great panel!
I’m really enjoying this rebooted podcast so far. I suppose it helps that a big national news story broke in the first week. đ
My thought on the whole Davies situation is that the whole idea of the “honor code” is disingenuous at best. When you call something an “honor code” and make following it to the letter a requirement for attendance or use of facilities like the testing center, and have an entire department devoted to enforcement, it is ridiculous to call it an “honor code” and to talk about it in terms of honor and agency. Call the honor code and the honor code office what they are: a required code of conduct and the BYU secret police.
If they were serious about honor they’d take a page from the book of Karl Maeser: show people the honor code, and have them give their word of honor to keep it.
I’m really curious what other commenters think that BYU should have said instead. Just “no comment” to everything? Because BYU didn’t say “HEY, THIS GUY IS HAVING SEX!” All they said was that it was an Honor Code violation as opposed to an academic violation (ie, cheating or failing). He could have easily been passed out drunk on the sidewalk, or disfellowshipped for looking at porn or teaching anti-Church stuff in Sunday School, etc. Yeah, sex is the likeliest contender, but the point is that BYU didn’t say – someone else ratted him out to the press a couple days after BYU’s initial press release.
Honestly, I think that by making it clear that he broke a school rule and not a law, and that the rule wasn’t academic in nature, BYU ensured that Brandon could maintain his options for going to other schools if he chooses. The subsequent exposing of his sin and humiliation in national media is not BYU’s fault.
I agree, Elizabeth.
Situations like these put BYU in an impossible position in terms of public relations and fairness. If BYU dismisses the player without explanation to the public about the nature of the violation, they leave the player exposed to public rumors and speculation which may be worse than the truth. If BYU were to communicate directly or indirectly (such as in the Unga case) the nature of the violation, then the players privacy has been violated.
There really isn’t a completely discreet way to handle cases that involve high profile athletes. If nothing is said at all, as some commenters have suggested, the players absence immediately raises questions among the public, the press and the fan base.
Whatever happened to private and non publicized punishment and repentance? Couldn’t BYU have had mercy on this young man and waited to kick him off the team? Couldn’t they have come up with another punishment to satisfy the demands of justice considering how publicized his expulsion would be? It seems abusive to me and a blatant act of shaming this young man.
Keeping the matter private risks undermining the legitimacy of the Honor Code. If BYU had taken no public action, and it later came to light that there was a serious violation by an athlete, BYU would most certainly receive justified Cam Newton-esque criticism.
There is little doubt that the public shaming is disproportional to the sin, but I don’t see a lot of viable alternatives here.
BYU pulled him from the basketball team knowing it would expose him to ridicule from the press and his peers. They could have waited and kept it private and out of the media attention.They could have dealt a punishment without kicking him from the team at the time the whole nation was looking at him. There are thousands of kids who break the honor code at BYU and none of them get called into the honor code office unless someone specifically rats them out to the office. He was framed and singled out because of his status on the team. Plain and simple.
When BYU instituted this so-called âhonor code,â is there not a moralistic and compassionate obligation for BYU to act honorably as well? How âhonorableâ has the outcome of this studentâs actions ended up being for all parties involved? There is no âhonorâ here for BYU nor the student — only shame and public humiliation.
Are the administrators of this so-called âhonor codeâ so bereft of intelligent foresight, much less compassionate prudence, that they couldnât imagine the worse what could possibly happen and might very well happen (which of course did) and have taken a different course?
Me thinks that BYU, influenced by the harsh, routine mindset of âexcommunicationâ and similar memes by the very church that BYU represents and is governed by, overshadowed any notions of Christian prudence and tact.
How about simply “Suspended for an undisclosed violation of team rules.” That’s a standard line at every university when a player gets suspended. In this case, it would have done a lot to protect this young man from public scrutiny, particularly since he has not been asked to leave the university.
Aren’t you being disengenious in separating “Honor Code” violations (why do you need to capitalize this) and “academic” violations. Aren’t academic violations a subset of honor code violations? By announcing the suspension as an “honor code” violation, BYU is, in essence, saying “HEY, THIS GUY IS HAVING SEX!”
Also, there’s no reason to make such an announcement to allow him to maintain options to go elsewhere. A private letter, on BYU letterhead, to him that he could give to another school would have sufficed, without any public announcement.
Ultimately, the exposing and his humiliation is BYU’s fault.
My own experience in the LDS church is that they do not hold confidentiality. They are called counselors, but are not certified or licensed as counselors, so of course, nothing is kept confidential, and they are not accountable for violations of confidentiality. They require students to sign an agreement or “Honor Code” as a requirement to be on the team. Who is singled out for violations usually don’t have strtong connections with the “good old boys” who are in charge of these decisions. Lets punish everyone who had any type of what might be considered sexual contact and there would be far fewer students at BYU.
Wow … the world is full of ignorance …
Well done to the majority of you for adding to it.
Silver, we are happy to hear all positions on this issue, but ad hominem attacks do not speak well of your desire to be part of a genuine discussion. Please join in with your takes on the Davies situation or the Honor Code (or honor code, if you don’t like it capitalized) and not about the discussion. If it hasn’t been up to your standards, please contribute to raising it to a higher level.
I can see the level of “genuine discussion” you’re interested in promoting here.
Interesting that you would choose just one post to respond to … rather than any of the outrageously ignorant posts on your thread.
You’d prefer I “raise it to a higher level”?
Aren’t you in charge around here? Isn’t that your job?
Start promoting intelligent conversation and I’ll happily participate.
Sorry that you are feeling picked on here. I guess I wrote in response to you because I felt your post represented a real shift in tone.
I thought good perspectives were being shared in the discussion. There were posts acknowledging the agreement Davies made, and simply that consequences he could have predicted did follow. Others focused on justice versus mercy; others on the tragedy of the public airing of private, non-criminal behavior. Others weighed in on the “damned if they did, damned if they didn’t” dilemma BYU faced in this matter, especially given past precedents in cases like this. These all seemed like valid positions someone might take, or invitations to more conversation. Given this, your blanket assertion that widespread ignorance was being spouted felt out of place given the tone up until then. It also did not feel accurate, and it certainly didn’t seem helpful.
And now we have two posts in which you’ve still never stated your position. What were the ignorant positions you were complaining about? We’d love to hear your assessment of the Davies situation as it played out, how it might have played out differently (and, especially, better), or at least something about the Honor Code and it’s enforcement and/or role at BYU.
Hi all,
Tom asked an interesting question during the podcast. No one likes what happened in this Davies case, and many think the Honor Code as currently instantiated at BYU is abusive and not conducive to creating moral individuals. Tom’s question was essentially: What do we think would be a good alternative? How might BYU retain a distinctive mission along the lines the Church wants it to have but in some other way than a highly enforced conduct code? Is it possible? Is it desirable? Play Church leader and brainstorm new emphases, new directions for your faith’s flagship university!
I just listened to this this morning. Great discussion all around.
Tom, loved hearing your voice!
It was so great to hear that Ashely Sanders was invited to join the panel. I am always impressed by her intellect and and how articulate and passionate she is. Please invite her back often! This was a great discussion that really got me thinking.
I attended Ricks 40 years ago and wrote letters to the college paper about how rediculous the rules were then. I can not see why a higher standard than that for a temple recommend can be justified.
As for confidentially that should be very carefully managed. As others have said this couple will not be setting foot in church again I wouldn’t think and I can’t see how that is helpfull to anyone
Wow. Ashley “chip-on-my-shoulder-about-BYU-rules” Sanders was really grating and got in the way of a productive discussion.
Don’t get me wrong; I went to BYU as a grad student, and thought the honor code was a load of authoritarian crap, but there comes a point when just repeating “it’s all horrible and produces no real Christian virtue, and therefore scrap it for a standard, toothless academic honesty pledge” does no good for a discussion. We. get. it. You’re too special and spiritual to have to pledge voluntary obedience to crappy authoritarian rules. We. get. it.
Hi N.,
Glad you at least caught onto Ashley’s overarching point. It’s a good one, I think. I don’t go with you in your “You’re too special and spiritual…” line of analysis as what is behind Ashley’s thinking, and I also felt each time she spoke added new nuance to the issue, but I can acknowledge that this point was indeed thoroughly made.
Overall, however, even though you felt the message came across too heavy handed, I think I hear you agreeing with Ashley on this matter. If so, what might be a good alternative for BYU? How might it switch things up and still maintain itself as a campus set apart in some ways, but without the “authoritarian crap” you acknowledge? Ashley is getting your critique that her repeating her angle to the degree she did “does no good for a discussion.” I’ve asked in other responses above and ask you now, as well: For the good of this discussion, for something positive to come out of the Brandon Davies travesty of violated privacy (or whatever way you might want to make it something in need of greater redemption), what do you think would be a good way ahead for BYU vis a vis the Honor Code?
Thanks!
Dan
I’ll respond to your question Dan. First, I just listened to this podcast today and I really enjoy the panel discussion about mormon issues. It feels like am there as part of an open conversation that I wish I could have with other mormons, especially my family and friends.
I finished my undergrad at BYU a few years ago. One idea that I would add to the brainstorm is the following:
No reporting of others activities allowed. If someone has a problem with the way that someone else chooses to live their life, they can simply ignore it or confront the person about it. We should resolve our own conflicts. There could be some cases of abuses and other actions that clearly affect others that may be reported. But just keep it simple.