June 11 brought news that Kate Kelly, founder of Ordain Women, and John Dehlin, prominent public LDS voice through Mormon Stories and other podcasts and venues, have been called to face church disciplinary councils for “apostasy,” as evidenced through their activism and public expressions of concern regarding various issues facing today’s Mormonism. Alan Rock Waterman has also apparently been notified of pending action, though he has not yet been contacted directly by his stake president.
Seeking good perspectives even as the news is still breaking, this episode features Mormon Matters host Dan Wotherspoon’s interview with Elbert Peck, former head of Sunstone, who was in that post in September 1993 when several LDS scholars and activists, who have been labeled the “September Six,” were disciplined. What parallels can we draw between then and now? What are key differences?
Links:
Dallin H. Oaks 1989 General Conference talk on “Alternate Voices”
Church’s 1991 Statement on Symposia (part of a longer document, so scroll down a bit)
Sunstone news story on the “September Six” (Elder Packer’s talk is on page 74)
Elder Packer’s 1993 talk to the All-Church Coordinating Council
President James E. Faust’s General Conference talk after Sept 1993 disciplining
Comments 13
I’ve felt sick to my stomach since I saw the announcements about John and Kate. It’s troubling for many reasons. Dan–I’ve enjoyed your discussions and the way that you have been free to engage in discussion with saints and scholars who bring different perspectives to the table. Those perspectives don’t always line up 100% with the traditional message we get from LDS authorities. It seems that the church can see fit to punish people who discuss those ideas in the open. I’m fearful to think what that means for honest seekers of truth everywhere.
Thanks for doing this Dan. I look forward to the other interviews. Sadly John Dehlin and Kate Kelly are apostates under the accepted definition by George Q Cannon. What needs to change then is the definition. And that can happen when we (the institutional church as well as it’s members) allow people to take responsibility for their own salvation. Let us as members from top to bottom discern what to believe or not believe. Let the institution teach and make a great case for the very basics that Jesus taught and then encourage open discussion on the rest. Under this model we would all become more loving and less didactic and calcified in our opinions and our ability to have the spirit work within and among us. It would reduce pride and encourage acceptance and meekness. Our numbers could grow as people feel understood, loved, un-judged, and accepted as they are. We could bring to our teaching not only inspired words from our own but also the best thinking by the best and brightest in the world who have demonstrated remarkable integrity. These people would be from all disciplines and beliefs. We could dive into the scriptures and explore them from such perspectives while continually seeking meekness and charity. We would have a simpler church both in structure and in doctrine. I see such a need to revisit how and what we teach as well as the doctrines and carefully consider if they are truly bringing us closer to Christ or distancing us from him.
Okay. Time to step down from the soap box. Sorry. My sympathy goes out to both of these remarkable people. I remain an active and believing member of this faith and am grateful for John and Kate’s courage as well as their insights. I have followed their movements and have cheered them on. I pray God will bless them and that somehow good things will come from this trying time. I pray that we will all be patient with one another when we make mistakes. And that are hearts will be full of the pure love of Christ. Love will win the day!
Jay said: “Let the institution teach and make a great case for the very basics that Jesus taught and then encourage open discussion on the rest. Under this model we would all become more loving and less didactic and calcified in our opinions and our ability to have the spirit work within and among us. It would reduce pride and encourage acceptance and meekness. Our numbers could grow as people feel understood, loved, un-judged, and accepted as they are.”
That is a beautiful vision, Jay. I joined the church at one time believing what you wrote it what it stood for. And then 25 years later left it, realizing it stood for none of those things.
The rigidity of the church comes from the top down, so it will always be there.
What I forgot to add was this: Kate and John seem to have been believing in an unconditionally open and loving church when they look at the LDS church. They are now feeling the shock and betrayal that comes when learning it is not.
Thanks Dan, looking forward to hearing more perspectives on this. As a Mormon trying my best to “make it work,” I took this news pretty hard last night. I feel like all the good the Utchdorf talk last October did has now been erased. I think the church underestimates the damage this will cause. The comparable event of “September 6” is not the same. We didn’t have social media, blogs, podcasts, or the internet access back then like we do now. This is going to be an interesting thing to follow. Thanks for being there every step of the way! I am a proud monthly supporter of your work!
Thanks for doing this Dan. I just finished reading the Sunstone piece on the “September Six” and was disheartened at how little has changed in almost 21 years. Even much of the rhetoric is the same. And I had thought we were making progress! I hope that those of us who care about these issues and the church continue to press forward, but it’s difficult not to wonder whether it really makes a difference. At least we have the internets and podcasts like this one to help us through this time around.
“We’re not against people having ideas, we’re against people spreading them around.” That’s so sad. This whole thing is breaking my heart. Thanks for putting this together, Dan. It was useful and insightful to hear all of this put this into context.
If the the George Q. Cannon definition is the operative one, than this website and much of the bloggernacle might as well be considered apostate.
When the Relief Society was organized in March of 1842, Eliza Snow said that Joseph Smith had said, “He [Joseph Smith] said if one member becomes corrupt and you know it; you must immediately put it away. The sympathies of the heads of the church have induc’d them to bear with those that were corrupt; in consequence of which all become contaminated–you must put down iniquity and by your good example provoke the Elders to good works–if you do right, no danger of going too fast: he said he did not care how fast we run in the path of virtue.”
It’s sad how Dehlin and Kelly have spun this whole thing, as did Dehlin did with Dan Peterson and Greg Smith. Grateful someone is standing up to Dehlin and Kelly. On the point of the “Big Tent” don’t confuse their sideshow with the Big Tent. If they do get exed they can always come back
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As a non-LDS Christian, I find it so strange that John Dehlin, whose super interviews I listen to a lot on podcasts, is getting so beleaguered by his church hierarchy, when he is actually interested in truth and in open dialogue. If an institution doesn’t like such things, how sad, and how indicting in a way. Having said that, I’m struggling to think of any human organisation where this doesn’t happen. Unfortunately, much of institutionalised Christianity seems to be a case of the Scribes and Pharisees all over again…thanks Mormon Matters (and stories) guys, for being people who actually want to stop this football team mentality around religion… and God bless you all! 🙂
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