This episode is the second installment in the Mormon Matters “Encountering Other Traditions” series that explores the fruits that come from bringing Mormonism into dialogue with other faiths. The focus of this conversation is an exploration of Mormon and Catholic connections as well as differences, and the ways that intimacy with the other tradition can enhance one’s own understanding and spiritual life. Panelists Fiona Givens and Mark de St. Aubin, two cradle Catholics who converted to Mormonism while they were young adults, along with Mathew Schmalz, a Catholic scholar of religions with a strong interest in Mormonism, are wonderful guides. In what ways has their familiarity with both traditions enriched their worldviews and spirituality? What do they see that they might not otherwise notice? Where there are differences, do these lead to in any areas to “holy envy”?
Please listen and share your own experiences and thoughts in the comments section below!
Comments 22
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Mormons are hobnobbing with Catholics to gain respectability, especially in Europe.The Catholics are still abominations and that doctrine, which Joseph Smith claims came straight from the Lord, has never been changed by the LDS Church. To emphasize the difference between the Catholics and the Mormons all you have to do is look at there charity for the poor. Since 1985 the Mormon Church has given 1.5 Billion dollars in charity . Of this figure $345 Million is in cash. The rest is in services and products/ In 2012 alone the Catholic Church gave $179 Billion. The Catholics have 35,000 schools, 600 Universities and 600 Hospitals world wide. The Mormons have one University, three colleges, and one hospital. But they do have plenty of Temples.
I think it is crucial that Mormons and Catholics focus on the many things we share and how we can work together. I have never experienced any anti-Catholic feeling in my many dealings with Latter-day Saints. But I can say that my Mormon friends have experienced anti-LDS sentiment from Catholics. I was grateful for the opportunity to speak on Mormon Matters–yet another example of the hospitality and openness I have received from Mormons.
we are happy to hear that dear Mat,I guess you are right on this my family and i grew up in Veracruz Mexico unaffiliated from any religion in fact my grand parents were not affiliated either but the interesting thing even when my dad was illiterate, he taught us all what the LDS church teaches so when i met the missionaries here in California at age 24; i was shocked to find that my dad was right trust me so even when i was an anti religious person i could not resist their teachings all the doubts that i had to questions in life dissipated because quite honestly i always since i was very young i had question about God’s authority and here i had that question satisfied. besides i saw all my catholic neighbors as harsh people while growing up because they would harassed us all the time calling us devils o Demons for not been baptized as children. what impacted me the most is the fact that my dad with no religion or church affiliation was much much better than all of them that’s what led me to be careful when considering religion for me.my wife was converted from very devoted catholic while i met her tru revelation in Mexico so from California i went there and imported her ha ha. for some reason when we had accompanied her relatives to mass for some events she refuses to enter the church; she explains to me that she has a very bad feeling something scares her about it i ignore what it is. i know the catechism doctrine because i have studied religions at my own and nothing bothers me but she has a very different experience she gets depressed after visiting the catholic church she tell me that she has the feeling of a dark presence of something evil just opposite of what she experiences in her new church can some one tell me what can it be?
Loved the podcast! I really enjoyed Fiona’s telling about how she has incorporated the cross into her life. I have to the same conclusion she has regarding the cross and LDS culture. I have recently incorporated the cross into some aspects of my contemplative practice and have been enjoying the experience.
Just finished listening to the podcast and enjoyed it greatly. It would had been nice to hear from a panelist who had converted form the LDS Church to the Catholic.
I joined the LDS Church in 1976. I was an active and committed member for 30 years, but this Easter 2015 I joined the Catholic Church. The reasons why are complicated, and there are many things in the LDS traidtion I hold true. But now I’m feel I’m feeding my soul as it hasn’t been fed in a very long time.
Dear Jenn:
Could you share what you find most valuable in each tradition?
Mat
Jenn:
Sorry to hear that.
Your biggest problem now is that in leaving the LDS Church you have left a valid baptism which you have to have to enter into a kingdom of glory whether it is telestial, terrestrial, or celestial.
In the post-mortal spirit world, you will, undoubtedly, reunite with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Saints, by virtue of temple work done for you, if it needs to be done, but the judgement might not put you where you really want to be.
I would say you should take care of that now, before you leave this life, by restoring that baptism the Catholic Church will never be able to give to you. You should start taking care of this immediately.
Rich, I think your post is a ploy to a get heated discussion going. So far no one has bit.
I served a mission in Italy and vilified the Catholic Church during that time. I’ve since been back many times and have grown to love and appreciate it in so many ways. Like Fiona, I have felt the spirit as I’ve entered into the many duomos and cathedrals. While many love the idea of a Mormon Temple in Rome, I kind of wished that they had built it in a less conspicuous place. I think the Church might be feeling the same way considering the hellacious time they are having getting it built.
I had the same thought, Jenn. Congratulations on your entrance into the RC faith.
Jenn,
I agree. I loved listening to this podcast! It was so enjoyable, and I love hearing Mormon’s being positive about Catholicism – as I will admit that has not been my experience. I would have loved to hear a Catholic convert from the LDS faith and how it has affected their experiences and faith life. I think it would have added a fascinating angle to the podcast. My husband converted to my Catholic faith from LDS this Easter too, and he has a unique and lovely perspective when I can get him to talk about it. Congratulations on coming home to the Roman Catholic faith!
well Jenn. good for you take a tour but think it and pray it well i have studied it all not only our lds doctrine but the catholic’s as well i am a very open minded person who has experienced good feelings in other religious gatherings as well ; never the less the confirmation of the holy ghost experienced during my baptism in the lds church is unmistakable and incomparable it dwarfs all other good feelings somewhere else of course we in in the lds church that feelings play a big role when it comes to recognizing truth but if we don’t apply properly it could be misleading it has not been easy for me either.Even with that spiritual confirmation and continuous revelations that i have experienced and visions from Angels and also the prince of darkness who has appeared to me several times challenging me to resign my faith opposing me for reading the Book of Mormon which reaffirms me that the Book is from God because the devil himself opposes it. i too have had times with discouragement or lack of desire to attend church once in a while or the temple it self but when i force myself and go i see afterwards where that feeling of emptiness had come from or in other words who was behind it that’s why i warn people about feelings be them good feelings or bad feelings some times when i wake up on a Sunday and the sun shines beautiful i say i how great it would be for me and my family to be on the beach or on the mountains away from all people reflecting on the marvels of life. so there is a temptation there but i still go and after the services i go wow i now for a fact that if i had not attended the church today i would feel totally different tiered etc. while after church activity i feel refreshed ,full and happy. so an advice for jenn if i may, take a tour and observe all don’t forget all you learned and felt in lds church i know Heavenly father will get you what you need but be sincere with him and above all don’t try to please yourself but him because selfishness is not from God but form the devil one.may god bless you in your journey back to the church of the lord jesus chrit (LDS)
Loved this, Dan. One benefit of becoming familiar with the theology of another religion (such as Catholic theology) for me has been to realize how radical and bold Mormon theology is.
Also, in case anyone here is interested (since this episode was on Catholicism and since our Mormon Sunday school lessons are on the New Testament this year): there is Notre Dame MOOC that starts in June on Jesus in Scripture and Tradition https://www.edx.org/course/jesus-scripture-tradition-notredamex-th120-1x
I really enjoyed this podcast. I have had many wonderful Catholic friends throughout the years and have attended mass many times. I find much to love and cherish in the ritual of the mass. As a Mormon I I also yearn for a more thoughtful approach towards both Christmas and especially Easter. I observe Lent and often attend other denominations Easter services to fill my spiritual bucket.
I would love to hear more from Fiona about her sources for study of the divine feminine. As a woman I yearn for a deeper connection and more open discussion of our Heavenly Mother and women in and out of scripture. We have much to learn from and revere in most spiritual traditions. Thanks for this podcast and I’ll look forward to Part II
Interesting podcast, but I do think there were times where far too much was made of superficial similarities between the LDS and Roman Catholic faiths. Additionally, the idea that Joseph Smith’s ideas or Mormonism in general is more similar to Catholicism than Protestantism falls apart when one actually accounts for the aggregate of Protestant ideas, practices and architecture.
First, I really enjoyed the discussion, as far as it went. But I was hoping to hear more about in-group/out-group relations, costs and benefits about “cafeteria-ness” (cultural and theological community norms vs. big tent tolerance), who gets to decide if you are sufficiently orthodox/prax, whether “it takes a village”.
As an example, both Catholic and Mormon leaders take a firm stand in same-sex marriage and women in the priesthood, but Catholic laity is widely tolerant simultaneously both of strict official teachings and of shamelessly disregarding these without guilt or fear when it rings false. Most Catholics (even those opposed to homosexuality) would be appalled at a parent who kicked a child out of the house for being gay, because God loves all children.
I liked the part where the panelists hinted that Catholics too often love humanity (soup kitchens) more than people (need help moving? don’t expect help from a fellow parishoner!), this is so true.
I would have liked an answer to whether, if modern archeology proved incontrovertably that Jesus didn’t exist, how Mormons and Catholics would each react. I dare say Mormons would have an existential crisis, whereas Catholics would just shrug and say, at least it’s a good way to raise children.
More could have been said about use of language, what what it reflects. Protestants use words like “my personal Lord and Savior”, “right with God”, “my personal relationship with Jesus”, which may sound too self-absorbed and individualistic to Mormons and Catholics alike. Mormons use words like testimony, “I know the Church is true”, “sustain the Brethren”. To my Catholic ears, these sound overly assertive and submissive: I use words like “who am I to judge”, “more Catholic than the Pope”, “get off the cross”, and “what can I do, they’re my family?!”.
I wish the panelists had discussed the role of history on culture.
My suspicion is that a long (sometimes bloody) history leads Catholics to focus on key themes (family, social justice, ethical living) and disregard whatever else gets in the way, whereas Mormons having survived schism and apostasy in its early days feels a need to actively build group cohesion (and its membership rolls).
Finally, I wish a Protestant had also been on the panel. Mormons and Catholics are both instinctively too polite to criticize and call each other out, at the expense of a robust discussion.
i find some things interesting specially when it comes to certain comments form other faiths about why LDS tend to be so friendly and caring for others and or the sociability that exist among them. i heard a comment from the ex Mormon lyn family where she states that the Mormons do all these things just to attract members of other faith to join the church and that we are encouraged to behave and look different for the same reason… well that was her understanding because she could never gain a testimony that’s or in other words she joined but was never converted or in the evangelical way she was never born of the spirit or born again.Our prophets have stated clearly that when a member receives the priesthood or the confirmation of the holy ghost, that person not only “loves and desires to bless his family; but he goes out trying to bless the lives of others out of his family circle” that is something real and accurate the opposite happens when someone loses that. If not ask me about my experience when for a year and a half i left the church i hated all the members of the church , became very bitter toward the church to the point that i reaped apart my baptism certificate and divorced my ex wife so i affirm that all the good things that occurs in the church in regards to the well behaved members is the proof and work of the holy ghost that the world does not know, he is the one responsible for all this that’s not because we are forced or coerced to do and if we do it feeling that way is best not to do it because God is not pleased that way .the reason Mormons do or transform themselves from selfishness into caring for others comes from the new birth of the spirit yes, from the change of hearth that occurs once one knows or experiences the reality of the atonement of christ , not before not with out it well i must admit that some are born with that grace in them selves with that charity which is the pure love of christ also one thing that impulses that desire to care for others is having gone trhu a humiliating situation or experience of illness or poverty; is then when humans are brought down to the depths of humility and undestanding and love and compassion for others . A good example of this is he people in the poorest rural areas in the undeveloped countries they share their scarce food with anyone that comes to their door (well if their house has one)with out thinking of themselves. another example of this is the people who’s children get killed by others they become advocate innthe defense of others in similar situations or like the puerto rican ex catholic priest that started a foundation in Mexico for abandoned handicap children by their parents (los ojos de Dios) he renounced his priest position because he felt empty and did not crossed his arms and thought ok now is about me, no. he sought to help the most vulnerable and he and his wife have devoted their entire beings to that. that’s the guide of the holy ghost and his influence,nothing else. so when you see Mormons loving others not by coercion or by assignment of the leaders. know this that is the pure love of God working in them. for they understand the two main commandments of God clearly. to love God and as a consequence they love their neighbor that what it comes down to, to do it other ways is to push your self out of the church.
I enjoyed a bit from each of the participants in this podcast – they all had something profound to share. I especially enjoy having someone like Matt. I love being able to share issues with other religions with respect and knowledge of other religions.
I enjoyed the podcast. Another interesting “Mormon-friendly” Catholic is Laurence Hemming, a Catholic theologian who presented a paper on the relationship between the Catholic cathedral and rites with the Mormon temple at a temple studies conference in 2012.
http://www.templestudies.org/home/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/MormonismAndTheTemple.pdf
Great podcast all. Insightful, sensitive, and broad thinking. Thank you for taking the time to share.
I am a lifelong Mormon. When I was a teen, it seemed obvious to me that the Catholic Church was the “great and abominable” church of 1 Ne 13:4-9. Through an interesting series of paths and progressions in my life, I have now come to consider Roman Catholic tradition as valid as my own LDS tradition, and feel the Spirit as much in Catholic as in LDS worship settings. Most of my Catholic friends are dedicated to Humanae Vitae, the major 1968 encyclical of Pope Paul VI. My own clinical and research experiences has led me to find exceptional wisdom and inspiration in that document.
I have written more about this here
http://mormonscholarstestify.org/2691/joseph-b-stanford
I thoroughly enjoyed this podcast. My heartfelt thanks to all. Another excellent paper yet to be mentioned is Marcus von Wellnitz’s The Catholic Liturgy and the Mormon Temple.
https://ojs.lib.byu.edu/spc/index.php/BYUStudies/article/view/5185